Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

Podge_irl · 02-08-2020 07:37PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

So what speed do you cycle at then, AJR says he doesn't exceed 30kph except downhill, there's so much deflection being felt here that I assume you dont have a logical argument against a blanket speed limit.

Cyclists have no standard way of having the slightest clue what speed they are cycling at? Even GPS devices are somewhat unreliable on this front. Its fairly obvious why speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles - it is fairly rare to even be able to break them and there is no way to know if you are.

AndrewJRenko · 02-08-2020 09:38PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

So if it's only a minority of cyclists capable of exceeding the posted 30kph motorised vehicle speed limit then there would be no harm in introducing a 30 kph blanket limit, would there. So that when a Garda picks up one of these 30kph+ cyclists they can charge them with something other than "Cyclist driving a pedal cycle without reasonable consideration."

Yet again, the key question that you've avoided answering is: What problem are you trying to solve here?

You want to divert the attention of the limited resources that we have available in the Dept Transport and the RSA to come up with new legislation. You want to divert the attention of the limited resources that we have in the Gardai to enforce this law.

What benefit will arise, in the context of 2-3 people being killed on the roads each week by motorists?

meeeeh · 03-08-2020 12:03PM

Speed limits will probably be enforced at some time because electric scooters and similar will be using the same space. They will probably solve the same problem as all other similar measures should - to make things work for everyone. Of course if numbers stay as they are then probably no need.

Anyway I'm sure somewhere on twitter there is a group meltdown over this (behind the paywall):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/bad-cyclists-are-holding-back-green-revolution-ks5fv6hqs

magicbastarder · 03-08-2020 12:07PM

a speed limit won't be necessary if - similar to how e-bikes are regulated - an e-scooter has a top speed limiter, say 25km/h, for it to be legal.

like cars should have too; but i believe there are moves to introduce this.

SPDUB · 03-08-2020 12:52PM

SeanW wrote: »

Trump is not "head of the government" of the United States. The US has 3 co-equal branches, Legislature (Congress), the Executive branch and the Judiciary. DJT is only head of one branch, the Executive. As for AOC, it looks like she and "the squad" are the future of the US Democratic Party.

I should have said current figurehead of the US then ( how many people can name the head of the other 2 branches ) versus someone who might possibly be important in the future

Charles Babbage · 03-08-2020 01:45PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe that's because cyclists aren't killing 30-40 pedestrians each year?

Here we go again, defining every anti social activity short of killing as acceptable.
If that is your value system then there is no point in arguing with you.

SeanW · 03-08-2020 03:57PM

I wonder if shoplifters try the "but motorists are KILLING people" defense in court?

Stark · 03-08-2020 04:06PM

SeanW wrote: »

I wonder if shoplifters try the "but motorists are KILLING people" defense in court?

Says the guy who defends all bad behaviour with "but we kill fewer people than in other countries!" :rolleyes:

micar · 03-08-2020 04:08PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Actually I introduced the idea that the 5 crimes listed for motorists should be extended to cyclists, funny how so many of you pick up on number 1 in the list, even though so many of you deny being able to cycle at that speed anyway.

So if so many of you can't cycle that fast why do you object to a maximum speed for cyclists?

https://irishcycle.com/2015/07/19/cycling-fines-what-you-need-to-know-from-august-1/

This article from 2015 gives a full breakdown of all cycling offences.

Have a good read.

No mention of speeding but one could argue it could fall under cycling "without reasonable consideration" depending on the circumstance

I could not care less if there was a speeding limit in certain areas. But, I've nothibg on my bike to so tell me my speed. So, I'd never know if I was over the speed limit.

I'll mention it again, go off the Guards, Dept of Transport, RSA and the legislators telling you want a speed limit on cyclists. See what support you get......very very little I'd imagine.

All cars are able to exceed the speed limit but not all cyclists can.

A speed limit on cyclists would affect only a few.

SeanW · 03-08-2020 04:53PM

Stark wrote: »

Says the guy who defends all bad behaviour with "but we kill fewer people than in other countries!" :rolleyes:

All bad behaviour?

Really? Because I don't remember saying that everything all motorists do is perfect all the time. I simply put some of the hysteria into context.

Or was this another lie? :rolleyes:

Wishbone Ash · 03-08-2020 06:55PM

kenmm wrote: »

...Here's a thought, why is the limit on the motorway 120 for cars? Goods vehicles are 100, based on your logic we should have a blanket 100?

It's 90km/h for goods vehicles (was 80km/h until 2012ish).

AndrewJRenko · 03-08-2020 08:16PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Here we go again, defining every anti social activity short of killing as acceptable.
If that is your value system then there is no point in arguing with you.

My value system is that we should treat different risks differently. We treat paracetemol and morphine differently. We treat Swiss Army penknives and AK47 rifles differently. We can and should treat 1-3 tonne vehicles doing 20-150 kmph that kill 2 or 3 people each and 10-20 kg bikes doing 10-20 kmph that kill 1 person each decade differently.

SeanW wrote: »

I wonder if shoplifters try the "but motorists are KILLING people" defense in court?

The shoplifters could try the 'I was blinded by the sun' excuse and see if it gets them off scott free, like this driver who killed a cyclist.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-found-not-guilty-of-dangerous-driving-causing-death-of-cyclist-in-kerry-908096.html

SeanW · 04-08-2020 02:05AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

My value system is that we should treat different risks differently.

Welcome to literally every country on the planet.

The shoplifters could try the 'I was blinded by the sun' excuse and see if it gets them off scott free, like this driver who killed a cyclist.

RIP to the cyclist. Not sure how this changes the proven fact that Irish roads are among the safest in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Nor the conclusion which must inevitably be drawn, that Irish motorists are generally safe.

Duckjob · 04-08-2020 08:36AM

SeanW wrote: »

Welcome to literally every country on the planet.

RIP to the cyclist. Not sure how this changes the proven fact that Irish roads are among the safest in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Nor the conclusion which must inevitably be drawn, that Irish motorists are generally safe.

By your own safety metric (ie people killed in collision with ____ ), Irish cyclists are extremely safe. Doesn't stop you going on and on with your nonsense generalisations every 5 minutes.

Wishbone Ash · 04-08-2020 09:14AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

on the only segment strava seems to list for o'connell street, out of a total of 2,890 people who have attempted it, 12 have averaged a (perfectly legal) 40km/h+
or, less than half of one percent; and that is the PR for each cyclist listed, the fastest they have ever gone on it. this information is being used to try to sustain a claim that 'numerous' cyclists go faster than 40.
also worth mentioning that in general, i'd expect a cyclist using strava to be faster than an 'average' cyclist as strava use is skewed towards sports and leisure cyclists.

https://www.strava.com/segments/5967744

There's another segment which someone has created and miss-named 'Upper O'Connell Street Climb'.

https://www.strava.com/segments/3172011

(It appears that I'm in 3rd place!

)

TaurenDruid · 04-08-2020 10:30AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Cyclists have no standard way of having the slightest clue what speed they are cycling at? Even GPS devices are somewhat unreliable on this front. Its fairly obvious why speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles - it is fairly rare to even be able to break them and there is no way to know if you are.

Any modern GPS will be very reliable on this front, unless you're driving or cycling in a heavily wooded area. More accurate than a car's speedo, in fact.

Wishbone Ash · 04-08-2020 10:39AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Cyclists have no standard way of having the slightest clue what speed they are cycling at....

Any regular cyclist would have a pretty good idea of their speed within a couple of km/h and their gearing would also give an indication. If I'm spinning out on a 50x11 I know that I'm doing 60km/h+. If I have to use a 34x28, I know I'm down around 6/7km/h.

magicbastarder · 04-08-2020 10:55AM

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Any modern GPS will be very reliable on this front, unless you're driving or cycling in a heavily wooded area. More accurate than a car's speedo, in fact.

cool. free GPS for all cyclists. possibly unreliable in city centre conditions, so probably not legally enforceable.
this is not even a (literal) $50 solution to a $5 problem, it's a $50 solution to a 5c problem.

kenmm · 04-08-2020 11:17AM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Any regular cyclist would have a pretty good idea of their speed within a couple of km/h and their gearing would also give an indication. If I'm spinning out on a 50x11 I know that I'm doing 60km/h+. If I have to use a 34x28, I know I'm down around 6/7km/h.

No standard way tho - sure you can have a good idea, but that wont get you out of a speeding ticket in this crazy new "Speed limits for non mechanical vehicles world).

You would need a properly calibrated instrument fitted to every bike for such a law to come in. This would also mean it would probably need tested regularly - NCTs for cycles anyone??(although.. looking at some of the sh!theaps people try to cycle, it's probably not a bad idea!)

The whole idea is as farcical as this entire thread tbh

TaurenDruid · 04-08-2020 11:17AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

cool. free GPS for all cyclists. possibly unreliable in city centre conditions, so probably not legally enforceable.
this is not even a (literal) $50 solution to a $5 problem, it's a $50 solution to a 5c problem.

Dude, you've posted about cycling at very precisely measuered high speeds, so you're not included in the offer. Sorry.

kenmm · 04-08-2020 11:18AM

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Any modern GPS will be very reliable on this front, unless you're driving or cycling in a heavily wooded area. More accurate than a car's speedo, in fact.

Not necessarily, some devices struggle around tall buildings. Not typically a problem in Dublin, but its getting worse with the amount of Glass and steel monstrosities that are being thrown up around the dockland/ ifsc.

magicbastarder · 04-08-2020 12:00PM

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Dude, you've posted about cycling at very precisely measuered high speeds, so you're not included in the offer. Sorry.

ah boo.
but not in the city centre though - as above, i've seen my GPS track go screwy when cycling past tall buildings.

kenmm · 04-08-2020 12:46PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah boo.
but not in the city centre though - as above, i've seen my GPS track go screwy when cycling past tall buildings.

Cycling is usually better as you are moving faster and can get away from the areas where the GPS signal is bouncing off os the buildings (the most common cause). Running with my Garmin tho, that can be a nightmare sometimes..

I guess I will need to get a speedometer fitted to my body anyway? What if we have a 10kmph per hour speed limit somewhere and I run faster than that?

magicbastarder · 04-08-2020 01:25PM

what happens if the glitch results in data which seems to suggest you ran 50m in 2s? you could be done for running at 90km/h.

Podge_irl · 04-08-2020 02:36PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Any regular cyclist would have a pretty good idea of their speed within a couple of km/h and their gearing would also give an indication. If I'm spinning out on a 50x11 I know that I'm doing 60km/h+. If I have to use a 34x28, I know I'm down around 6/7km/h.

I don't have any earthly clue what speed I am going at to any proper degree of accuracy. Unless I'm on my 11 or 32 I'm not even sure what gear I'm in most of the time.

Plain old speeding is never going to be an offence for cyclists.

AndrewJRenko · 04-08-2020 04:04PM

SeanW wrote: »

Welcome to literally every country on the planet.

RIP to the cyclist. Not sure how this changes the proven fact that Irish roads are among the safest in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Nor the conclusion which must inevitably be drawn, that Irish motorists are generally safe.

The point would be to demonstrate that the easiest way to kill someone and walk out of Court free is to do it from behind the wheel of a motor vehicle.

breezy1985 · 04-08-2020 04:15PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Cyclists have no standard way of having the slightest clue what speed they are cycling at? Even GPS devices are somewhat unreliable on this front. Its fairly obvious why speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles - it is fairly rare to even be able to break them and there is no way to know if you are.

I bought a very accurate speedometer from Halfords for about €10 and I never cycle without it as I hate not knowing my speed. But like with everything with bikes how could you enforce mandatory use with a LL the children on bikes as well as adults

SeanW · 04-08-2020 05:47PM

Duckjob wrote: »

By your own safety metric (ie people killed in collision with ____ ), Irish cyclists are extremely safe. Doesn't stop you going on and on with your nonsense generalisations every 5 minutes.

Actually no, that's your sides' argument. "Horrible evil motorists KILLING people" - except they're not.

And "killing people" is not the only reason civilised societies regulate things. When was the last time you bought your favourite tipple from the off-license after 10PM? The streets were not running red with the blood of people killed by people who bought a few cans at 10:05, yet there is enforced regulation. You're not allowed to shoplift, cheat on your taxes, "tag" a wall with graffiti or do a wide variety of other things that don't kill.

As to my "generalisations" they are correct:
1) That cyclists have a problem with motorists far beyond anything reasonable.
Well we've literally seen demands from cyclists that motorists should be forced to get out of their cars at every junction to press a "beg button" to be considered for a green light. As to the number of cyclists who responded with anything like "whoa ... that's a little extreme, I'm out" well that number rhymes with "Nero". And that poster is just one in a long line of people with very extreme views.
2) That cyclists spend far too much time playing zoom-zoom on the footpath and forcing pedestrians to negotiate with them red lights.
That can be proven by being a pedestrian in Ireland's major cities for any length of time.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The point would be to demonstrate that the easiest way to kill someone and walk out of Court free is to do it from behind the wheel of a motor vehicle.

Intent matters. That's why manslaughter tends to be treated less seriously than murder, sometimes even attempted murder. And it's likely that the jury was influenced by some of the background to the case, including witness statements, dash cam footage, driver history and so on relating to the motorist in the preceding minutes.

But it does underscore one sad, but unavoidable reality. Which is that human error is an ever present risk. As long as imperfect human beings have been doing things, they've made errors, and that will continue until the end of human life on Earth. However, it does not change the fact that Irish motorists have done a good job at managing those risks - as borne out by the statistics showing that Ireland road planning and usage is best practice.

breezy1985 wrote: »

I bought a very accurate speedometer from Halfords for about €10 and I never cycle without it as I hate not knowing my speed. But like with everything with bikes how could you enforce mandatory use with a LL the children on bikes as well as adults

I actually agree with the cyclists on this one. As far as I am concerned, cyclists are entitled to play zoom-zoom as much as they want - as long as they're off the footpath.

Stark · 04-08-2020 06:07PM

SeanW wrote: »

As to my "generalisations" they are correct:
1) That cyclists have a problem with motorists far beyond anything reasonable.
Well we've literally seen demands from cyclists that motorists should be forced to get out of their cars at every junction to press a "beg button" to be considered for a green light. As to the number of cyclists who responded with anything like "whoa ... that's a little extreme, I'm out" well that number rhymes with "Nero". And that poster is just one in a long line of people with very extreme views.

All of which were just unreasonable motorist demands of cyclists being parroted right back at you. Don't think anything was asked that wasn't already being asked of cyclists.

Duckjob · 04-08-2020 06:49PM

SeanW wrote: »

Actually no, that's your sides' argument. "Horrible evil motorists KILLING people" - except they're not.

Strawman
Generalisation
WhatAbout
Deflection

Dearie-me, You really can't help yourself with the strawmanning, can you ?

I'm guessing you're referring to another posters posts, not mine. Still not sure that poster ever referred to motorists being "horrible" or "evil", but in any case, you can have that argument with him not me.

I'm just commenting because I don't think I've ever seen a poster so diligent in individualising wrongdoings by people in cars, while at the same time, so determined to generalise wrongdroings by people on bikes and view everybody who uses a bike as a single homogenous group called "cyclists". That intention bleeds through on every single post you make.

FWIW I actually don't think motorists (taken as a group) are any better or worse behaved than cyclists are (as a group). This supposition tends to be strongly supported by many studies from all around the world which show that different road groups law-break at about the same ratio. Many people on here seem unable to accept this simple piece of data, and prefer to dismiss those studies as fake news in preference of their own bias.

What I also believe is that the consequences when bad motorist behavior goes wrong are on a different scale to those when bad cyclist behavior goes wrong, and that that should inform the allocation of the gardai's limited resourced in order to have a maximum impact on road safety.

Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

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