Helmets - the definitive thread.. Mod Note - Please read Opening Post

CramCycle · 23-06-2020 08:59PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i mashed my face into the rear windscreen of a taxi at near 30km/h, cram's elbow is clearly made of sterner stuff than my chin if he managed to break it while travelling at two thirds the speed.

I suspect I have a greater mass. Also the elbow was pointed so concentrated the force in a small area.

Also other advice is if you are going to collide with someone, make sure they are nice. It appears to make everything more civil.

magicbastarder · 23-06-2020 09:03PM

the taxi driver in question drove me home, after offering to take me to the mater. he said it was just a flesh wound, wouldn't need stitches. once i got home and into the house, and had a look at my chin, i realised he was either a hopeless optimist or a born liar.

magicbastarder · 01-07-2020 11:29PM

posted without comment.

https://twitter.com/iDoBeCraftinTho/status/1277777025584050176

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 02-07-2020 05:03PM

MrCreosote wrote: »

Does wearing a helmet make it more likely you will crash? Possibly

Interesting.

Did you arrive at that conclusion or is that from reliable data?

Is that because of complacency of the cyclists or motorists will be more careful around a cyclist without a helmet?

Seth Brundle · 02-07-2020 05:11PM

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Interesting.

Did you arrive at that conclusion or is that from reliable data?

Is that because big complacency of the cyclists or motorists will be more careful around a cyclist without a helmet?

Drivers Give Riders Wearing Helmets Less Room on the Road

Hurrache · 03-07-2020 12:52PM

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Did you arrive at that conclusion or is that from reliable data?

Is that because of complacency of the cyclists or motorists will be more careful around a cyclist without a helmet?

As well as the link posted above, there's plenty of anecdotal stories from regulars here who notice the same thing.

tomasrojo · 03-07-2020 01:21PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Drivers Give Riders Wearing Helmets Less Room on the Road

Incidentally, you get the idea of how obvious but small the effect in Walker's original study is from this:
https://twitter.com/ianwalker/status/880717486018240512

CramCycle · 03-07-2020 01:23PM

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Interesting.

Did you arrive at that conclusion or is that from reliable data?

Is that because of complacency of the cyclists or motorists will be more careful around a cyclist without a helmet?

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Drivers Give Riders Wearing Helmets Less Room on the Road

Hurrache wrote: »

As well as the link posted above, there's plenty of anecdotal stories from regulars here who notice the same thing.

Another reason why anecdotal evidence should not enter into the discussion. I personally 'feel' the opposite. That without a helmet, drivers overtake me closer. There are three possible reasons in my mind. First, they see me as a lout who flaunts safety and therefore does not deserve to get the same treatment as some who makes the effort. That is sh1tty of them but society is full of examples of this type of behaviour where is someone is perceived as not putting in the effort, no one will put in the effort for them. Second, they perceive that a person without a helmet is confident, most likely experienced (this wouldn't be my perception but it could be others) and therefore, do not require the same space, it may even be without realising. Thirdly, they don't actually change, and subconsciously, I am more fearful and it is just perceived rather than actual. Now this doesn't bother me as i am a confident cyclist but it 'feels' noticeable.

tomasrojo · 03-07-2020 01:34PM

Incidentally, Dillon has decided to go for an under-16s helmet law instead:
https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1278949353940369411

Don't fancy his chances in this coalition.

Steoller · 03-07-2020 01:45PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Drivers Give Riders Wearing Helmets Less Room on the Road

There are also suggestions that wearing a helmet causes you to take more risks

CramCycle · 03-07-2020 02:15PM

Steoller wrote: »

There are also suggestions that wearing a helmet causes you to take more risks

It could have been someone from here but I remember a story about a dad finding his daughter ramming against the kerb on either their bike or scooter and falling off, repeatedly. he pointed out she would hurt herself, to which she replied, I'll be fine, I have a helmet on.

As for the Walker study, and every study, there are flaws in it, and datasets like this will never be consistent. One of the major flaws I had was the idea that riding closer to the gutter was safer by his standards. Whereas I would have looked at it another way, they may have been closer when you were further out but you had much more space to maneuver, and plotting the distance from the kerb against space to maneuver, sows that riding out from the kerb is safer, contrary to his graphs which imply that the overtaking distance is the only concern. Another interesting thing he avoided was he wanted to talk about lane width as a factor but decided it was too variable but he could have predefined road type and seen if there were differences there without a variable like lane width.

AndrewJRenko · 03-07-2020 02:33PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

Incidentally, Dillon has decided to go for an under-16s helmet law instead:
https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1278949353940369411

Don't fancy his chances in this coalition.

True, but he may succeed in positioning himself as the sensible, mature, caring one against those mad, hippy Greens if we don't work hard to get the facts out there.

In fact, that may well be his intended outcome - good PR for himself.

conkennedy · 03-07-2020 05:46PM

CramCycle wrote: »

As for the Walker study, and every study, there are flaws in it,..... One of the major flaws

Not necessarily flaws, studies have limitations.

Which would include, for example, length of time of the study. Any empirical study has and acknowledges these limitations. It's not a flaw, it's just a fact and a statement as part of the research. Walker cannot study 100% of cyclists on 100% of their journeys 100% of the time.

So, limitations rather than 'flaws'.

tomasrojo · 03-07-2020 05:59PM

I must have a look again, Did he really say that kerb-hugging was safer or did he just say that it resulted in his study in closer passes and leave it at that?

I do think it's a rather good study. He's quite a witty guy as well.

cletus · 08-07-2020 12:40AM

GCN talking about compulsory helmet use

https://youtu.be/Hr8mBKqiycQ

Apologies for not embedding, on a mobile

magicbastarder · 08-07-2020 08:22AM

they don't really give it an indepth look. more of a hook to hang the video title off.
given that they've got 'partners' who make helmets, they're steering a diplomatic path on it.

rubadub · 08-07-2020 01:15PM

Steoller wrote: »

There are also suggestions that wearing a helmet causes you to take more risks

This makes perfect sense to me, and would find it very unusual if somebody did not act differently. I would expect the rarer people whole believe helmets are more dangerous to wear commuting would also act less risky if forced to wear one.

If you have freely decided to wear one then I presume you think it is effective (unless it is just worn to shut a nagging partner/parent up).

People seem to get all upset & defensive over these claims, as though people are saying they are putting themselves at greater risk of injury, but this is not really the case/claim.

CramCycle wrote: »

It could have been someone from here but I remember a story about a dad finding his daughter ramming against the kerb on either their bike or scooter and falling off, repeatedly. he pointed out she would hurt herself, to which she replied, I'll be fine, I have a helmet on.

To me this is the same as somebody going downhill mountainbiking or road racing in tight bunches. Many would not dream of doing it without a helmet therefore they are putting themselves in a situation/activity which they know is more risky.

Some like to claim they do not change their cycling style whatsoever, yet might think people are idiots for not wearing them or that they are highly beneficial.

To those people I would ask if you were stuck somewhere and your helmet was lost or stolen and you urgently had to get home for some reason, would you just walk home? or would you cycle? and if you did cycle would you be more careful due to the fact you had no helmet. If you do admit you are being more careful then to me that is the exact same as admitting you take more risks wearing one. It is NOT the same as saying you are more likely to have an injury, my guess is people do more risky activities but are thinking they have not changed their risk of injury.

The problems comes when people put too much faith in the protection that a helmet offers, they therefore think they are at the same level of risk but are really more likely to be injured.

This goes for all sorts of PPE, I see lads angle grinding with crappy safety goggles which might look like regular glasses, when they should really have full contact ones that close all gaps. So a guy grinding one day with goggles might think he is better protected than he was the day before grinding without them, but he would be going far nearer the sparks with the goggles and actually be at higher risk.

I have had one brake fail on my bike, so I cycled much slower. So having 2 working brakes makes me take more risks, nothing to be ashamed of or defensive about, makes perfect sense to me.

CramCycle · 08-07-2020 01:44PM

rubadub wrote: »

I have had one brake fail on my bike, so I cycled much slower. So having 2 working brakes makes me take more risks, nothing to be ashamed of or defensive about, makes perfect sense to me.

Pretty much agree with it all. I am sure there are some where it is hard to tell the difference but everything around us changes our behaviour and the behaviour of those around us. While I don't actively change my behaviour with or without a helmet on, I would be lying if I said my behaviour was the same. I used to ride a track bike without brakes on the roads, not a hope in hell my style of riding was the same as on my road bike. Same with my disc brake bike, I probably push it a bit more in regards being closer although this has changed after a recent incident. Same for the Helmet, while my change is not intentional, I can't imagine it is not there. All of these factors are important, and as you said, being forced to change, and choosing it probably would affect my behaviour as well.

For example, if I force my son to wear it (presuming he hadn't intended too, I have dangerised the cycling, therefore he might be more cautious. If he chooses it, he might think he is safer and take more risks. Context is key and without it, population level studies are the only really useful thing.

In more recent times, Covid 19 shows this for a lot of people. You'd swear people believed that Covid 19 was absorbed through the hands and once they wore blue gloves the need to social distance or any respiratory etiquette disappears, to the point that I am convinced that most people wearing gloves are more at risk as they don't appear to wash their hands (gloves) as often etc.

tomasrojo · 08-07-2020 02:55PM

Yes, I find risk compensation a pretty convincing theory. I suppose the sweet spot is where any compensation is overwhelmed by the strength of the protective effect. And that your change in behaviour doesn't increase risk for anyone else.

Cetyl Palmitate · 08-07-2020 09:52PM

There has been a similar situation in hurling. Since the introduction of mandatory helmets players seem far more likely to strike and be struck on the helmet than before.
Obviously now the risk is massively reduced and serious head injuries are not common, but behaviour definitely changed.

tomasrojo · 08-07-2020 09:54PM

I guess they'd be less likely to get teeth knocked out as well?

TheAnalyst_ · 08-07-2020 09:56PM

Not sure if you can compare but similar when you see american football and rugby. Probably both as bad for the head but culture in america is to lead the tacklet with your head as hard as possible. Take the helmet out and the the nature of the game changes.

Cetyl Palmitate · 08-07-2020 09:59PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I guess they'd be less likely to get teeth knocked out as well?

Absolutely!

It was clearly the right thing to do and has reduced the risk of serious head injury.
The point about it changing behaviour stands though.

tomasrojo · 08-07-2020 10:00PM

I think American Football has a worse problem with neurological disorders caused by head impacts. Much worse, as I understand it, because, as you say, they actually incorporated charging headfirst into the game.

TheAnalyst_ · 08-07-2020 10:05PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think American Football has a worse problem with neurological disorders caused by head impacts. Much worse, as I understand it, because, as you say, they actually incorporated charging headfirst into the game.

Quite possibly do. Things have really changed in the last few years with pro rugby and the standup tackle technique. Some players seeem to be particulary vunerable to it and careers have ended.

I still play and its a risk, so doing an hour at 25kph on the bike is just a bit more risk.

magicbastarder · 08-07-2020 10:09PM

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

I still play and its a risk, so doing an hour at 25kph on the bike is just a bit more risk.

do you mean that cycling is riskier than rugby?

TheAnalyst_ · 08-07-2020 10:10PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you mean that cycling is riskier than rugby?

I don't know for sure but I would say cycling is a lot less. Depends on your style and weekly mileage. I mean its just risk added to all the other things I do.

magicbastarder · 08-07-2020 10:13PM

ah, i wasn't sure what you mean by 'more risk'. understood now.

Cetyl Palmitate · 08-07-2020 10:14PM

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

I don't know for sure but I would say cycling is a lot less. Depends on your style and weekly mileage. I mean its just risk added to all the other things I do.

Looking at rugby from the outside in I would have imagined it would be far riskier than 1 hour, 23kmh cycle.

magicbastarder · 08-07-2020 10:15PM

a good friend of mine, in his last four seasons of playing rugby, finished one of them. the list of injuries sustained in those four seasons were:
broken leg
broken jaw
cruciate ligament
dislocated shoulder
broken arm

the last three all happened with a single tackle.

Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

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Helmets - the definitive thread.. Mod Note - Please read Opening Post