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Twitter removing "master", "slave", and "blacklist" to be more inclusi

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    #62
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    default branch in GitHub is 'master'.

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/#:~:text=ZDNet%20Academy-,GitHub%20to%20replace%20%22master%22%20with%20alternative%20term%20to%20avoid%20slavery,its%20CEO%20said%20on%20Friday.
    Not anymore

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #63
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,768 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    hellsing101 wrote: »
    The terms are also used in database infrastructure where the master is the "live" database that is being written to and read from and the slaves are copies of that database that are generally for backup/fail-over purposes or can be used as read only to display data to the user in some instances.

    Any project ive worked on in the last 20 years has called them primary and secondary or similar.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »
    A lot of code bases from many large software houses are going through this

    I have no problem with it if it's done because slavery is wrong or the terms aren't ideal for the application.

    But if it's done because a black employee complains and then the company does it to be "inclusive" and also looks at words like "blacklist" or "whitelist", I think it's stupid.


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    #65
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    While this change announced by Twitter has zero bearing on me whatsoever, it is indicitive of todays disingenuous apologist society.

    Change is good, particularly meaningful or neccessary change. This however smells either like futureproof arse covering (incase someone gets offended) or an act of PC grandstanding.

    Companies are breaking their necks under pressure in efforts to appear to become more "inclusive" due to the current environment. If they were being honest, their motivations for doing so is primarily to preserve their brand, to mitigate criticism and to keep the money coming in. While that is ok in essence, realistically they are profiteering from racism.

    If they actually gave a fcuk about acting in efforts to opposing racism, they would have done it years ago...not now when they feel expected to do so while capitalising on a contentious topic. They could have introduced it internally with no need for a public announcement....but that doesnt give them the kudos.

    Were programmers up in arms over the last number of decades while using this terminology and demanding change?

    As other posters have said "how does it affect you" etc...thats the point. It doesnt, its a populist sham that will change fcuk all except pressuring other businessess to adopt similar practices.

    It certaintly wont change the thousands of black African kids being used as modern day house slaves in the Middle East, thats for sure.

    Again, change is great! But fickle change to maintain or increase your supporter base is bullsh1t. This act in itself doesnt bother me and Im sure there are better terms but the sentiment behind it however is transparent.

    I suspect that if you had exposure to being a minority involved in software engineering, you might have a different opinion. As someone who isn't, me, it never occurred to me that these terms could be offensive, now that they have been highlighted (and we're not Twitter who you seem to be accusing of doing it for point scoring) I would have no problem removing them from our repos, docs etc.


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    #66
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/#:~:text=ZDNet%20Academy-,GitHub%20to%20replace%20%22master%22%20with%20alternative%20term%20to%20avoid%20slavery,its%20CEO%20said%20on%20Friday.
    Not anymore

    Good.


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    #67
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I have no problem with it if it's done because slavery is wrong or the terms aren't ideal for the application.

    But if it's done because a black employee complains and then the company does it to be "inclusive" and also looks at words like "blacklist" or "whitelist", I think it's stupid.

    I'd say it was most likely a white employee if it was anyone


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    #68
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    Jesus Christ. Should we re-write Linux to remove master-slave processes?


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    #69
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I have no problem with it if it's done because slavery is wrong or the terms aren't ideal for the application.

    But if it's done because a black employee complains and then the company does it to be "inclusive" and also looks at words like "blacklist" or "whitelist", I think it's stupid.

    Why do you have a problem with companies trying to be more inclusive?


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    #70
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Any project ive worked on in the last 20 years has called them primary and secondary or similar.

    Latest version of MySQL references replica but commands and variables for slave and master are still embedded in the Db.


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    #71
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Why do you have a problem with companies trying to be more inclusive?

    It’s not about inclusivity, computing terms are generally named as such for very good reasons. This is just pandering.


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    #72
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    gailforecast wrote: »
    It’s not about inclusivity, computing terms are generally named as such for very good reasons. This is just pandering.

    What is the 'very good reason' to call something a Slave rather than a Replica?


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    #73
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    I suspect that if you had exposure to being a minority involved in software engineering, you might have a different opinion. As someone who isn't, me, it never occurred to me that these terms could be offensive, now that they have been highlighted (and we're not Twitter who you seem to be accusing of doing it for point scoring) I would have no problem removing them from our repos, docs etc.
    I was in that minority, with lots of new Irish from the sub continent. Nobody cared about this sort of thing!


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    #74
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,085 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    In computers there are things called processes.
    And you can "kill" processes.

    While doing a project for my computer science degree back in the 1990s a member of the team from the north was given a scenario and asked "which processes would you kill first ?"

    His reply "the Protestant one"

    We all feel on the floor laughing.

    Still remember it to this day.


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    #75
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    gailforecast wrote: »
    It’s not about inclusivity, computing terms are generally named as such for very good reasons. This is just pandering.

    Coders on the thread have already provided several alternatives that work just as well.


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    #76
    hellsing101
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭hellsing101


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Any project ive worked on in the last 20 years has called them primary and secondary or similar.


    I have heard it used with MySql database infrastructure, MS SQL I have heard primary and secondary used instead. There are lots of terms that are used that basically mean the same thing, my point was that if you are working in a company that has always used certain terms then it seems stupid to change them because someone has attached some racial meaning to them. I'm guessing whoever wanted these terms changed has very little to do with the infrastructure they are used in or they would know its best not to going messing with something that has been running smoothly. The more likely case out of all of these is some PR guru asked some techies to go and look for something they can use as PR.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Why do you have a problem with companies trying to be more inclusive?

    It isn't more inclusive.


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    #78
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    What is the 'very good reason' to call something a Slave rather than a Replica?

    Dunno about MySQL, but a Redhat slave is spawned to perform work on behalf of the master process, so the terminology fits.


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    #79
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,685 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    I suspect that if you had exposure to being a minority involved in software engineering, you might have a different opinion

    Obviously impossible for me to know as I am neither. However, I would assume Im intelligent enough to be cogniscent of context.

    If someone has been offended by this code terminology, I would imagine they would also be offended by a myriad of other connotations in daily life. That would be a very sensitive disposition altogether and would further suggest a search for outrage.

    And its actually Twitter in this instance that is "pointscoring" not me.


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    #80
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    What is the 'very good reason' to call something a Slave rather than a Replica?

    Replica means exact copy. This isn't always the case.

    That's not an argument in support of continuing to use slave.


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    #81
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It isn't more inclusive.

    Who are you to decide that? If you were the descendant of slaves, you might feel differently. And that could be any kind of slave, from any part of the world.


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    #82
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    What is the 'very good reason' to call something a Slave rather than a Replica?
    Replica is fine for data but not with devices. Renaming can cause issues with a lack of common terminology.


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    #83
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    hellsing101 wrote: »
    I have heard it used with MySql database infrastructure, MS SQL I have heard primary and secondary used instead. There are lots of terms that are used that basically mean the same thing, my point was that if you are working in a company that has always used certain terms then it seems stupid to change them because someone has attached some racial meaning to them. I'm guessing whoever wanted these terms changed has very little to do with the infrastructure they are used in or they would know its best not to going messing with something that has been running smoothly. The more likely case out of all of these is some PR guru asked some techies to go and look for something they can use as PR.


    'attached some racial term'?!! I think there were African slaves in the US long before the thought of how to recover from someone running a 'DROP *' in Production.


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    #84
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Replica is fine for data but not with devices. Renaming can cause issues with a lack of common terminology.

    Language evolves.


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Obviously impossible for me to know as I am neither. However, I would assume Im intelligent enough to be cogniscent of context.

    If someone has been offended by this code terminology, I would imagine they would also be offended by a myriad of other connotations in daily life. That would be a very sensitive disposition altogether and would further suggest a search for outrage.

    And its actually Twitter in this instance that is "pointscoring" not me.

    Male and female connectors will be next because of the lack of consent implying rape.

    It sounds stupid but someone will try to get it going.


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    #86
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    gailforecast wrote: »
    Dunno about MySQL, but a Redhat slave is spawned to perform work on behalf of the master process, so the terminology fits.
    In the docs they talk about replicas, but not in the code.


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    #87
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    Language evolves.
    In real life sure. In technical language you need to be sure you are talking about the same thing.


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    #88
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Obviously impossible for me to know as I am neither. However, I would assume Im intelligent enough to be cogniscent of context.

    If someone has been offended by this code terminology, I would imagine they would also be offended by a myriad of other connotations in daily life. That would be a very sensitive disposition altogether and would further suggest a search for outrage.

    And its actually Twitter in this instance that is "pointscoring" not me.

    I didn't say you were pointscoring, i said you were accusing Twitter of doing so. And for someone in the industry, i don't find it to be.

    Perhaps they are offended by myriad things, I don't understand why it offends YOU that it offends someone else. That is odd.


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    #89
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    is_that_so wrote: »
    In real life sure. In technical language you need to be sure you are talking about the same thing.

    Right. I don't think that means technical language can't change either though.


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    #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Who are you to decide that? If you were the descendant of slaves, you might feel differently. And that could be any kind of slave, from any part of the world.

    Some change in architecture terms on the backend of a website does not make that company more inclusive. People don't even write these things when they code. It's not like the employee has to be reminded of some part of his history on a daily basis.

    As I said, removing it because slavery is wrong is fine. Removing it because they are racially charged is not.


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    #91
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No KiKi. I can think someone is a worthless cúnt without being upset.

    There are always a few people who see something they think is on the right and then try to make the opening poster out to be big triggered baby. It's just ubiquitous all over the internet by people who think they're being clever.

    Master and Slave should not be racially loaded terms. Modern slavery isn't racial. These sorts of changes fool people into thinking slavery is over and it was only ever black people who were enslaved.

    They succeeded in my opinion. Your OP definitely came across as OTT and triggered.
    Master and slave are loaded terms to some. I'm going to go ahead and bet that they're not loaded terms to you...because you're white? :pac:
    Slavery and segregation/Jim Crow was not that long ago. People alive today grew up during segregation, which is what happened after slavery was abolished. Their grandparents may have been slaves. As Twitter is HQ in America then this perspective is going to be where they're looking at it from. Not some triggered Irish snowflake's perception.


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