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Clare GAA Discussion part 2 , No Purple Jumpers Allowed !!

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    #1532
    Feenie
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Feenie


    Clareman wrote: »
    From the Clare Clare Clare facebook page

    don't think I could trust what that page says, being honest. One of those people who will say anything to hate the new and praise the old instead having a fair and honest perspective on things.
    if that is the truth though, an embarrassment. Maybe covid made the delivery and production harder, though.


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    #1533
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Feenie wrote: »
    But without Fitzy, I don't know who would have stood up, especially at the time. Lohan and Daly had recently planted themselves as great managers yet. Maybe if Fitzy left in say, 2015, yeah, arguably.. but history is history and I'm happy with what he did for us. Maybe this squad would never have existed without him.

    At the time, with the group of under 21s coming through any up and coming manager would have loved to have taken over Clare. Daly had his chance, I would argue that Lohan is yet to prove himself as a manager.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again, in my opinion Clare have to distance themselves from the teams of the 90s for managers. Then again, if all the rumours are true Fitzy will be back soon enough.


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    #1534
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Feenie wrote: »
    don't think I could trust what that page says, being honest. One of those people who will say anything to hate the new and praise the old instead having a fair and honest perspective on things.
    if that is the truth though, an embarrassment. Maybe covid made the delivery and production harder, though.

    Considering the meeting is in public I'd be surprised if he'd misreport what's being said.


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    #1535
    Feenie
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Feenie


    Clareman wrote: »
    At the time, with the group of under 21s coming through any up and coming manager would have loved to have taken over Clare. Daly had his chance, I would argue that Lohan is yet to prove himself as a manager.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again, in my opinion Clare have to distance themselves from the teams of the 90s for managers. Then again, if all the rumours are true Fitzy will be back soon enough.

    It's interesting that you say Clare need to distance from the team of the 90s.. Where do you think a good source of managers would be/an people in mind?


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    #1536
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Feenie wrote: »
    I think its high time we were honest and gave fitzy respect where he deserved it and not where he didn't. He's flawed, he's a human, he just like the rest of us.
    he was a good goalkeeper, he did good things for waterford as manager, he did some good things for Clare, and he's doing good things for Wexford. However he created internal strife inside the county and lead to the unraveling of the 2013 squad in various ways.
    But we wouldn't have an all ireland and league title without him so take what you will.

    We might have won a lot more..


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    #1537
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Feenie wrote: »
    It's interesting that you say Clare need to distance from the team of the 90s.. Where do you think a good source of managers would be/an people in mind?

    There's 31 other counties, we could try to limit the search to maybe just hurling counties first. In my opinion we've wasted 1 of the most talented group of players ever to play the game, not just for Clare but in general, this isn't a bunch of under 21s who you'd hope to bring forward, this is a senior All Ireland winning bunch of players who have struggled to do anything in almost a decade, 1 All Ireland semi final since 2013 isn't a great return.


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    #1538
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Clareman wrote: »
    I really can't agree with that, in fact, I'd argue that we'd have won far more with someone else in charge, it's often over looked that he lost over 50% of the Championship games that he managed Clare and he had us relegated from the division 1 of the league.

    I would say that he's a decent manager with a good understanding of tactics but he's over reliant on tactics and plans, I think he'll bring a "second tier" team on a lot but I don't think he's a good enough manager to manage a top team.

    Fitz has won every single inter county senior trophy that can be won without ever having managed one of the so called Big Three, that's an incredible and unrivaled record.


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    #1539
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Fitz has won every single inter county senior trophy that can be won without ever having managed one of the so called Big Three, that's an incredible and unrivaled record.


    It is indeed, he has had something like 13 goes at it.....

    I think a fella called Ger Loughnane did something similar.. with less talent available. Keep it in context.
    Eamon Cregan did with Offaly with a bunch of eccentric characters.
    John Kiely did it with Limerick. All-Ireland, League and Munster..He has a better record that Davy.

    I don't think we will worry too much about the leagues, remember 95 when the KK lads put the cup into the boot of the car after the final...sure the clare lads didn't get their League medals for a few years!


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    #1540
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Figerty wrote: »
    It is indeed, he has had something like 13 goes at it.....

    I think a fella called Ger Loughnane did something similar.. with less talent available. Keep it in context.
    Eamon Cregan did with Offaly with a bunch of eccentric characters.
    John Kiely did it with Limerick. All-Ireland, League and Munster..He has a better record that Davy.

    I don't think we will worry too much about the leagues, remember 95 when the KK lads put the cup into the boot of the car after the final...sure the clare lads didn't get their League medals for a few years!

    None of the 3 mentioned have done what he has, seriously did you read what I said.


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    #1541
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    None of the 3 mentioned have done what he has, seriously did you read what I said.

    Yes, I did.
    Davy has had more goes at managing senior teams. Yes has done well, but his success isn't 'unrivalled'. Sure he has won Leinster and Munster but let's be honest he has underperformed teams with big talent including last year.

    5 points up, a man up against Tipp and lost by 5. His achievements are lesser than others with less resources.

    Eamon Cregan success is far more impressive. One all-Ireland and two leinsters.
    Ger Loughnane 3 Munsters and 3 all Irelands are far more impressive.


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    #1542
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Figerty wrote: »
    Yes, I did.
    Davy has had more goes at managing senior teams. Yes has done well, but his success isn't 'unrivalled'. Sure he has won Leinster and Munster but let's be honest he has underperformed teams with big talent including last year.

    5 points up, a man up against Tipp and lost by 5. His achievements are lesser than others with less resources.

    Eamon Cregan success is far more impressive. One all-Ireland and two leinsters.
    Ger Loughnane 3 Munsters and 3 all Irelands are far more impressive.

    I'm sorry but you are letting your personal dislike for the man cloud your judgement.

    He has improved Wexford immeasurably, a blind man could see that and they were 5 points up against Tipp because of the team and tactics that Davy implemented.

    Loughnane did not win three AI's he won two with the same team, he was an abject failure in his other managerial stint. The suggestion that the 2013 team was more talented is ludicrous: how many of the 2013 team would have made the 1995/7 team??

    Cregan managed Limerick for 9 years and never won as much as an egg cup! That Offaly team was insanely talented and you are doing them a huge disservice, Michael Bond won an AI with them as well!!


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    #1543
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    I'm sorry but you are letting your personal dislike for the man cloud your judgement.

    He has improved Wexford immeasurably, a blind man could see that and they were 5 points up against Tipp because of the team and tactics that Davy implemented.

    Loughnane did not win three AI's he won two with the same team, he was an abject failure in his other managerial stint. The suggestion that the 2013 team was more talented is ludicrous: how many of the 2013 team would have made the 1995/7 team??

    Cregan managed Limerick for 9 years and never won as much as an egg cup! That Offaly team was insanely talented and you are doing them a huge disservice, Michael Bond won an AI with them as well!!

    My dislike of Davy is because of his behaviour, particulary his goading of Limerick when Clare were hammering them in Ennis.
    His behaviour has always been his weakness. For all the media games he plays, his poison can't be hidden when he is losing. I could add more but I won't.

    His achievements as a manager are fine but not "unrivalled". He lost last year against Tipp becuase he couldn't adjust the game plan on the fly. He lost becuase his tactics put him in a loosing position. His tactics ran his team into the ground. Last years record against the big teams was 3 draws, 1 win, 1 loss?

    You are right, it was a typo re Loughnane, He only has two All-Irleands and three Munsters in seven years with Clare? No comparision

    We won't agree on this so I'm parking it.


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    #1544
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    how many of the 2013 team would have made the 1995/7 team??

    Probably every one of the forwards, Jamesie would probably hold his place, Hegarty in 95 would probably lose out, Baker would be touch and go in midfield, 5 of the 6 backs in 95/97 were as good as ever to play to the game so hard to drop any of them.

    So to answer your question, about half the 2013 team


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    #1545
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Fitz has won every single inter county senior trophy that can be won without ever having managed one of the so called Big Three, that's an incredible and unrivaled record.

    Hurling isn’t soccer. Managers aren’t meant to go around to different counties to take charge traditionally. I like Davy personally but I don’t think his style of play can win an all Ireland unless like 2013 there’s extenuating circumstances whereby there’s 3 division 2 teams in the semis and limerick without a free taker. We had a panel of multiple all Ireland winners in 2013 and once we beat Galway I thought we’d win it as Tipp and kk were gone.
    When Davy had the team his team for the next few years the output was pathetic. The coaching didn’t suit the players imo.


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    #1546
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Fitz has won every single inter county senior trophy that can be won without ever having managed one of the so called Big Three, that's an incredible and unrivaled record.

    Fair enough he has won League, Munster, Leinster and All Ireland, some record alright and 1 that will be hard to match because very few managers will go from county to county like Fitz does.

    I would argue however that the league he won with Clare was a result of Clare being in division 1B and getting their prep for the championship wrong, he won Leinster after drawing 3 matches on the way to the final and that his Munster win with Waterford was overshadowed by their hammering by Tipp in the semi final and their trouncing in the All Ireland final 2 years previously.

    In today's championship teams are rated on All Ireland's, everything is just fluff, you can argue about fairness or validity or whatever but that's just the fact of today's championship, in 12 years as an inter-county manager he has 1 All Ireland title.


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    #1547
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    golfball37 wrote: »
    Hurling isn’t soccer. Managers aren’t meant to go around to different counties to take charge traditionally. I like Davy personally but I don’t think his style of play can win an all Ireland unless like 2013 there’s extenuating circumstances whereby there’s 3 division 2 teams in the semis and limerick without a free taker. We had a panel of multiple all Ireland winners in 2013 and once we beat Galway I thought we’d win it as Tipp and kk were gone.
    When Davy had the team his team for the next few years the output was pathetic. The coaching didn’t suit the players imo.

    I think his style of hurling will mean his team won't concede big scores and will stop a lot of opposition teams winning but he's not setup to go out and win games.


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    #1548
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Clareman wrote: »
    I think his style of hurling will mean his team won't concede big scores and will stop a lot of opposition teams winning but he's not setup to go out and win games.

    Correct. Last year semi they were out on feet against 14 men and five points up. Didn’t score a point from play in final half hour. The Davy tactics and fitness will get you so far, the bigger counties have the flexibility and trust their hurlers enough to get the final piece and get the scores required.
    The 2017 final for me summed it up. Waterford played well but Galway found scores far easier to come by.


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    #1549
    mountgomery burns
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭mountgomery burns


    I was not a fan of Davy at all when he left Waterford and would still say his record there is the worst of all of his managerial career.

    I think winning an all Ireland with Clare was a fantastic feat but unfortunately for him his legacy is hurt by the fact they regressed massively in the following years.

    But to be fair he's done a great job with Wexford. Now I think he's smart, he sees the potential in teams that have hit a low point but where he knows talent exists. Wexford did have a good underage pedigree and Dunne did a poor job with them. But the fact they've gone from strength to strength and the mindset he's instilled in them v Kilkenny is mighty impressive in fairness, so I would say he's learned a lot in his time and where I was once a detractor I would have plenty of respect for his ability as a manager now.


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    #1550
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭golfball37


    A lot of that is correct but Wexford had been beating KK at u21 level for a few years before Davy arrived. The players didn’t have the old hang ups against kk many Wexford players had previously from being hammered by them.
    I don’t believe the stars will ever align as favorably again for a Davy as 19 and now 20 to win all Ireland. He failed very badly against Tipp when a steady hand was needed last summer. This year we have winter hurling tight games and less of them. If Davy can’t deliver at least a final place for them this year they can pack it in.


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    #1551
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Anyway, back to Clare GAA.....

    The footballers having to play the last 2 rounds of the league is going to be a big ask, I was hoping that the league would be null and void and that we'd get another year in division 2 while getting ready for the championship. Strangely enough I think the championship going back to knock out is brilliant for us, not discounting Tipp in the first round or Limerick in the semi by any stretch of the imagination but as the second highest ranked team in the province (by league position) I think we have a great chance at a Munster final and if a shock is ever going to take place it could be here. Dare to dream lads, dare to dream.


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    #1552
    BloodyBill
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭BloodyBill


    Clareman wrote: »
    Fair enough he has won League, Munster, Leinster and All Ireland, some record alright and 1 that will be hard to match because very few managers will go from county to county like Fitz does.

    I would argue however that the league he won with Clare was a result of Clare being in division 1B and getting their prep for the championship wrong, he won Leinster after drawing 3 matches on the way to the final and that his Munster win with Waterford was overshadowed by their hammering by Tipp in the semi final and their trouncing in the All Ireland final 2 years previously.

    In today's championship teams are rated on All Ireland's, everything is just fluff, you can argue about fairness or validity or whatever but that's just the fact of today's championship, in 12 years as an inter-county manager he has 1 All Ireland title.

    I think Munster titles are also a measurement of a manager. Its usually Clare people that discount them as we find it so hard to win them. They are relevant.


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    #1553
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    BloodyBill wrote: »
    I think Munster titles are also a measurement of a manager. Its usually Clare people that discount them as we find it so hard to win them. They are relevant.

    I don't know about that, sure for Limerick/Waterford that hadn't/haven't won an All Ireland for a very long time they are a big thing, but I'd imagine that Limerick wouldn't rank their Munster titles in 2013 or 2019 as important anymore, in fact I'd say that they'd regard 2013 as a massive mistake cause they were stone cold in the semi final that year.

    Looking at Wiki, only 3 teams have won an All Ireland after winning Munster this century, in fact since the back door has been brought in only Clare, Cork and Tipp have won both Munster and the All Ireland. For me I guess Munster is a bit like winning the FA Cup, it's a grand day out, it's a final, it's silverware but at the end of the day it's not the main prize you're going for.


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    #1554
    Feenie
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Feenie


    BloodyBill wrote: »
    I think Munster titles are also a measurement of a manager. Its usually Clare people that discount them as we find it so hard to win them. They are relevant.

    I'd rather win the Munster championship than win an All Ireland at this stage, it some ways it can be a harder test. In the race for Munster this year we have to beat Limerick and Tipperary to even get to the final, and then face Cork or Waterford, insanely hard challenge to do any of that. One we're up to though. it's a tough hard championship where you have to take on atleast 3 of the top teams in the country. All of them have long traditions in the sport.


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    #1555
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Feenie wrote: »
    I'd rather win the Munster championship than win an All Ireland at this stage, it some ways it can be a harder test. In the race for Munster this year we have to beat Limerick and Tipperary to even get to the final, and then face Cork or Waterford, insanely hard challenge to do any of that. One we're up to though. it's a tough hard championship where you have to take on atleast 3 of the top teams in the country. All of them have long traditions in the sport.

    Ah here, I'd take 1 All Ireland over countless Munster titles


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    #1556
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Clareman wrote: »
    Probably every one of the forwards, Jamesie would probably hold his place, Hegarty in 95 would probably lose out, Baker would be touch and go in midfield, 5 of the 6 backs in 95/97 were as good as ever to play to the game so hard to drop any of them.

    So to answer your question, about half the 2013 team

    We disagree greatly so! I'd have at the very least 10 of the 95/97 team and a max of 5 from the 2013 team. The 2013 group of players is imo very very over rated and their reputations seemed to be almost exclusively built on what they did as U21's.


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    #1557
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Clareman wrote: »

    In today's championship teams are rated on All Ireland's, everything is just fluff, you can argue about fairness or validity or whatever but that's just the fact of today's championship, in 12 years as an inter-county manager he has 1 All Ireland title.

    In those 12 years only 3 counties outside the traditional big 3 have won the AI and Davy was one of those, y point was what he has achieved without managing a top 3 team.


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    #1558
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    In those 12 years only 3 counties outside the traditional big 3 have won the AI and Davy was one of those, y point was what he has achieved without managing a top 3 team.

    So in 12 years 5 teams have won All Ireland's, considering there's only 8 counties at a push who'll contest for an All Ireland that's a could amount.

    Look Davy is 1 of the top managers but his tics (tactics and antics) will mean that he'll never be liked by everyone, considering the control his family members have over GAA in Clare means he won't be liked by everyone in Clare.


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    #1559
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    We disagree greatly so! I'd have at the very least 10 of the 95/97 team and a max of 5 from the 2013 team. The 2013 group of players is imo very very over rated and their reputations seemed to be almost exclusively built on what they did as U21's.

    Right so, lets go position v position

    1
    Davy Fitzgerald v Patrick Kelly
    As is going to be said for a lot of positions, the goalie position has changed a lot and the pucks out are an integral part of any teams tactics, Davy's tactic was hit is as far as you could but not even I could question Davy as Clare's number 1.
    2
    Michael O'Halloran v Domhnall O'Donovan
    Can't imagine O'Halloran going up the pitch to draw an All Ireland, O'Donovan gets the nod here
    3
    Brian Lohan v David McInerney
    Again, I don't know if Lohan could cope in today's game but he's 1 of the all time great full backs so Lohan it is.
    4
    Frank Lohan v Cian Dillon
    This is a tight 1, neither would weaken a team, I'd say a tie here
    5
    Liam Doyle v Brendan Bugler
    No question, Doyle
    6
    Seánie McMahon v Patrick Donnellan
    Again, no question, McMahon
    7
    Anthony Daly (c) v Patrick O'Connor
    Daly
    8
    Jamesie O'Connor v Colm Galvin
    This is tough on Jamesie, but I'm going number on number, Jamesie is no doubt 1 of Clare's all time best players but he's not a midfielder, I'd give this 1 to Galvin as the far better midfielder, especially for helping his backs out
    9
    Ollie Baker v Conor Ryan
    Another toss up, Ryan is probably the better hurler but Baker is the better enforcer, I'm going to go for a tie here again.
    10
    Fergus Tuohy v John Conlon
    No question here, Conlon
    11
    P.J. O'Connell v Tony Kelly
    Now this is a tough 1, 2 of the classiest players ever to play for Clare, TK swings it here
    12
    Fergal Hegarty v Colin Ryan
    Ryan was a great man for the puck outs and a great man on frees, he gets the vote here
    13
    Stephen McNamara v Pádraic Collins
    Podge is a brilliant roaming player, Stephen Mc was a decent corner forward, I think Podge gets this 1 but could be a tie
    14
    Conor Clancy v Darach Honan
    Clancy is probably 1 of the most underrated players ever to play for Clare, looking back on the 95 final it's hard to see how he didn't get MotM, in 97 his second half performance was excellent but Honan could get a goal out of anywhere and he gets the vote here.
    15
    Ger O'Loughlin v Conor McGrath
    I'm going to chicken out here and say tie


    That's 5 from 95, 4 ties and 6 from 13, if you swing the ties to 95 then it's 9 to 6, I think Jamesey is very unlucky to lose out as well.


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    #1560
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Clareman wrote: »
    Right so, lets go position v position

    1
    Davy Fitzgerald v Patrick Kelly
    As is going to be said for a lot of positions, the goalie position has changed a lot and the pucks out are an integral part of any teams tactics, Davy's tactic was hit is as far as you could but not even I could question Davy as Clare's number 1.
    2
    Michael O'Halloran v Domhnall O'Donovan
    Can't imagine O'Halloran going up the pitch to draw an All Ireland, O'Donovan gets the nod here
    3
    Brian Lohan v David McInerney
    Again, I don't know if Lohan could cope in today's game but he's 1 of the all time great full backs so Lohan it is.
    4
    Frank Lohan v Cian Dillon
    This is a tight 1, neither would weaken a team, I'd say a tie here
    5
    Liam Doyle v Brendan Bugler
    No question, Doyle
    6
    Seánie McMahon v Patrick Donnellan
    Again, no question, McMahon
    7
    Anthony Daly (c) v Patrick O'Connor
    Daly
    8
    Jamesie O'Connor v Colm Galvin
    This is tough on Jamesie, but I'm going number on number, Jamesie is no doubt 1 of Clare's all time best players but he's not a midfielder, I'd give this 1 to Galvin as the far better midfielder, especially for helping his backs out
    9
    Ollie Baker v Conor Ryan
    Another toss up, Ryan is probably the better hurler but Baker is the better enforcer, I'm going to go for a tie here again.
    10
    Fergus Tuohy v John Conlon
    No question here, Conlon
    11
    P.J. O'Connell v Tony Kelly
    Now this is a tough 1, 2 of the classiest players ever to play for Clare, TK swings it here
    12
    Fergal Hegarty v Colin Ryan
    Ryan was a great man for the puck outs and a great man on frees, he gets the vote here
    13
    Stephen McNamara v Pádraic Collins
    Podge is a brilliant roaming player, Stephen Mc was a decent corner forward, I think Podge gets this 1 but could be a tie
    14
    Conor Clancy v Darach Honan
    Clancy is probably 1 of the most underrated players ever to play for Clare, looking back on the 95 final it's hard to see how he didn't get MotM, in 97 his second half performance was excellent but Honan could get a goal out of anywhere and he gets the vote here.
    15
    Ger O'Loughlin v Conor McGrath
    I'm going to chicken out here and say tie


    That's 5 from 95, 4 ties and 6 from 13, if you swing the ties to 95 then it's 9 to 6, I think Jamesey is very unlucky to lose out as well.

    You know that old joke.. if we played the 95 team against the 13 team they be tight at half time ,, but the 95 team are all in the 40s now!


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    #1561
    BloodyBill
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭BloodyBill


    Clareman wrote: »
    Ah here, I'd take 1 All Ireland over countless Munster titles

    In 1995 and before the Clare team and county only had the Munster Championship on its mind. It actually helped the team win the All Ireland . Clare people didn't care what happened after that Munster win.

    Granted times have moved on. The likes of Cork,Tippett and even Limerick (21) have fist fulls of Munster Championships . Clare still can't win them and rarely come close. If the All Ireland is the 'be all and end all' then its obvious that they should lose the League final and quarter final and focus on the back door?


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