Green Party wish list.

efanton wrote: »

Article 47 Pedal Cyclists
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overtaking using the wrong side of the road approaching a bend is illegal not matter whether it you are driving a car or cycling. Constantly cycling three abreast is not legal but I see that most Sunday's when these lads our out.

I'm willing to bet you see cyclists travelling 3 abreast (aside from overtaking) less than .1% of the time.

We should be finding ways for as many cyclists as possible to be on the road.
Advantages include

• Less congestion
• Healthier
• Often faster (within cities)
• Cheaper
• Less pollution

This idea of penalising those who want to cycle belongs with the idea of having a flag in front of a motorcar to warn horses from the 19th century.

It is regressive.

Its all falling into place for them, a Green Lord Mayor as well.

where do I even begin.

Podge_irl wrote: »

You're still completely wrong. Roads exist to transport goods and people and always have. And bikes have been using them for longer than cars.

If roads were only needed for bicycles why are they all over 20ft wide?
As previously stated that were the size they are because that was the width horse and wagons could pass each other.
Bicycles only became available in the 1880, exactly the same time as the very early cars.
In fact the first powered car existed before the first bicycle with pedals.
Bicycles didnt even become popular until the roads were tarmac'd specifically for cars. Cycling on cobbled or unpaved roads obviously made it a novelty rather than a serious mode of transport before this.

Bikes have been around longer than cars. Many roads in cities in Ireland were around before cars, and while you are correct that roads built in the last century were not built with bikes (or often pedestrians) in mind, we can correct that now. What the PfG is correcting is the massive disparity in spending on roads for private vehicles over public transport.

We can correct it but only by changing the planning laws so that new roads must include cycle lanes. I mean every single new road, including those in housing estates.

Why is it nonsense? Bikes are more efficient at moving people through a town or city than cars ever will be. Bus routes can be adapted to take advantage of the one way systems. Also, traffic evaporation is a well understood and massively evidenced phenomenon. When you make driving places harder, fewer people drive.

you are in dreamland. seriously. Yes restricting traffic in city centre might work in certain places, but to suggest you turn roads that are main arteries into one way street is just fantasy.
As stated earlier for these roads it might not be necessary for them to have cycle lanes at all anyhow, if parallel roads had safe cycle routes.
It may not have occurred to you but many people commute distances that are simply not practical for bicycles. You obvious have a very Dublin centric view and are not considering that the budget this government has to spend is not for Dublin city, its for the entire country.

Do you commute more than 20km to work each morning? If you do no doubt there is public transport available. To suggest that those that do not have public transport available to them, should cycle 20+ km each morning just so that you can turn city roads into bicycles lanes is not only ludicrous but totally and utterly selfish.

For nearly half the people in this country decent public transport is something that is not available to them. Any buses that do run, run on a hourly basis at best (often there is only 3 to 5 for the entire day) and often these are full to capacity already. Expecting people in rural areas to buy in to this nonsense of getting rid of cars before a viable alternative has been provided is pure stupidity.
Now you are getting cycle lanes and still its not enough.
Should we in the country start using ponies again?

If cycling two abreast puts them on the wrong side of the road, then the road is barely fit for one direction of cars, let alone two.

Now you are getting the idea. In case you didnt realise this is the case on many so called national roads in this country. There are even stretches of the N20 where there are no hard shoulders and just space enough for two lorries to pass. Same for many National roads in the west of of the country.
THat's why there was uproar about the M20 not being built. If the M20 wasnt built hundreds of millions would still have to be spent on the existing N20 to widen it, bypass towns and villages, and bypass stretches like Ballybeg where it is neither possible to widen the road or straighten it.

There is one inescapable fact. Private vehicle transport is utterly unsustainable and can not and will not be something encouraged or enabled going forward. It leads to nothing but clogged cities that are impossible to transit. It doesn't matter what your views are on cyclists, public transport or anything else - congestion in Dublin is one of the worst in Europe and is only going to get worse. More people need to be moved from private transport to public transport and active travel on a purely economic ground. This doesn't even touch the climate issues around private transport. Cities are for people, not cars and if there is any restriction on transit through the city it should (and inevitably will) be on the cars, not on anything else.

The reason our cites are congested is not because of cars nor the lack of cycle lanes it has been the result of bad planning. Its this and this alone that is the cause.

Put all the jobs and shopping areas in the centre of any city and the result is too many people and vehicles in too small an area.
Cycle lanes or getting rid of cars is not going to fix that. Changing planning laws is the only sensible way to address this, and to improve public transport so that less cars need to enter cities. However this doesn't address the problem for those who do not live in a city but must commute from rural areas. The obvious solution would be park and rides but being that the Greens have committed so much of the available money to cycle lanes, and there is little chance of significant borrowing for thing other than addressing the covid epidemic and restarting the country's economy, that is unlikely to ever happen.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Public transport is used. It is used by more than half the people who commute into Dublin every day. Only 28% of people commuting into town are doing so using private car transport - and this is just the canal cordon. Those commuting within the canals are almost exclusively not using cars. Public transport is being improved in places such as the quays be distributing the real estate more fairly - 2/3 public transport and active travel against 1/3 cars makes much more sense.

Public transport is not a solution for many, many places in Ireland. No one is going to ban cars across villages and towns in Ireland. But a reversal of funding to focus more on public transport and active travel is absolutely due.

We are talking about the budget of the NATIONAL government, not the local county or city council.
Ireland does exist outside the M50, I'm sure you have seen photo's or maybe postcards.

What about those that have to commute into cites without having the opportunity of using public transport?
The problem you have is that your view is only valid if we were talking about one single city, Dublin, and everyone in the country lived in it. Fortunately Dublin is not the only city and more than half the population does not live in it.

Podge_irl wrote: »

I am aware. The more people in Dublin who take public transport or cycle, the easier it will be for those who have to drive in to do so. It is not that complicated.

The same is true of all cities. Every person cycling or taking public transport is one less car (and it is almost inevitably one car per person) that those who have to drive need to deal with. They should be applauding the initiatives.

But you have just suggested that the roads those people might use be convert to cycle only, or one way streets.

These initiatives as you call them are just ideas, but not properly thought out.

Yes we need to address cycle lanes, I have already stated I am fully behind that.
The problem, as the Greens will quickly find out, is that there is a limited amount of money to spend.
Like kids in a sweet shop with pocket money they will lash their money out on the first things that looks good or tasty, only to realise later in the week they have no money to spend and mam and dad will not give them any more. The same will happen to the Greens, without thinking through their policies, without costing them, they will spend on things that might not necessarily be the best choice and provide best value for money only to realise later when they have had time to actually see what the country really needs, they have no money for it. When they run to FF and FG and ask for more money to spend it will not be there.

The cheapest and most effective way to address most of our problem is a radical change to planning laws.
As I stated earlier make it compulsory for all new roads (even those in housing estates) to have separated cycle lanes.
If a developer wants to build a fancy new shopping centre then simply providing a car park should not be enough they should either contribute to enhancing the surrounding roads to cater for the additional traffic, and/or contribute in some way to increasing public transport that serves that shopping centre or ensuring that a public transport route is provided to that new shopping centre.

The way to fix the issues we have now because of bad planning laws in the past, is the ensure the planning laws of the future caters for the public transport needs, ensure every house must have its own off road parking so that our roads are not clogged with parked cars and cyclist can still use the roads safely.

Blaming people that use cars for all the problems is not the solution and certainly will not win popular support. If you give someone a viable alternative that is frequent, affordable and reliable and nine times out of ten they will choose to use it without the need of imposing draconian carbon taxes or persecuting them for using the only form of transport available to them. But you still have to provide for those that do not get this choice.

efanton wrote: »

Now you are getting the idea. In case you didnt realise this is the case on many so called national roads in this country.

Do we have national roads in the country that is only about 3 meters wide?
News to me!

There are even stretches of the N20 where there are no hard shoulders and just space enough for two lorries to pass. Same for many National roads in the west of of the country.
THat's why there was uproar about the M20 not being built. If the M20 wasnt built hundreds of millions would still have to be spent on the existing N20 to widen it, bypass towns and villages, and bypass stretches like Ballybeg where it is neither possible to widen the road or straighten it.

I agree that the M20 should be built.

The reason our cites are congested is not because of cars nor the lack of cycle lanes it has been the result of bad planning. Its this and this alone that is the cause.

I agree that decades of bad planning has certainly exasperated this issue, but that alone is not the sole issue. The lack of adequate and basic public transport and cycling infrastructure has also contributed to the problem. It is not correct to state, it all just down to bad planning.

efanton wrote: »

Yes I do.

THe law as it stand now means that even though a cycle lane is provided, cyclists are not required to use it.
Before 2012 where a cycle lane was provided cyclist were obliged to use it.

That idiot Shane Ross changed the law. I dont recall this ever being debated in the Dail so I assume he had he power to make this change without Dail approval



https://www.dublincycling.com/cycling/key-issues-concern-cyclists-irish-road-traffic-law-rtl-and-how-deal-traffic-collision



I see little point in investing over a million euro a day on cycle lanes if cyclist have campaigned for the right not to use them, to the extent that a law was repealed in order for them to choose nor to use infrastructure put in place for their benefit and safety.

They either want cycle lanes and will use them, or dont want them and prefer to use the road. Either one is fine with me, but to suggest we spent hundreds of millions on cycle lanes in a bid to make roads safer for cyclist and then cyclists campaigning for the right to refuse to use them is nonsensical and pure waste of money.
It seems they want their bread buttered on both sides.

Personally I would put in the lanes, (they are needed and I don't deny that), but change the law back again so that cyclist are obliged to use them where they are provided


I'm sure a million euro a day could be spent on an equally worthy cause.

The right not to use it is not evidenced that it will not be used. So, no you have no evidence of your claim.

You seem to be flip-flopping on your position. You agree that we should build cycle lanes but then write paragraphs stating how its a waste of money. I think you are arguing in bad faith, to be honest.

efanton wrote: »

Not at all.
Why campaign for the law to be repealed if you did not intended to take advantage of that change in law. I am not claiming that every cyclist will refuse to use cycle paths, but I find it odd and rediculous that cyclist groups are campaiging for cycle lanes when they have previously capaigned for the right not to use them.

Did you even bother then to research the arguments put forward by those in favour of changing this law, as all the arguments, data, evidence and research as to the why this was a good decision is all there.
Like, if you could not be arsed to read into the background of this change, then why should I take you seriously with your concern over bike lanes?

Yes our cities need cycle lane networks that actually join up to enable a cyclist to cycle safely to any part of the city .

If your argument ended there, I would not have an issue but it seems there is always an equivocation of some sort that follows.

But then Podge_irl piped up that there should be a cycle lane on ALL roads.
I responded by saying this will not be possible because many roads simply do not have available space or verges that can be converted to cycle lanes.

To which he responded for those roads where a cycle lane could not be installed, they should be either closed to vehicles completely or turned into one way street so that cycle lanes can be installed.

Dare I say, you are misrepresenting the argument here for the sake of it.

Make of it what you will. The cyclists are being offered a proper cycling network and yet that is not enough for them, they want a cycle lane on every road.

Even if what you said above was true, which I doubt it, one poster on boards.ie is not 'cyclists'. Podge_IRL does not speak for the tens of thousands of cyclists out there, and to claim that he/she does is a sign of a poor argument.

Then to cap it off once they are installed they want the choice to not use them but use the road where the traffic is instead. Why bother to even build them if that's their attitude?

See above, you building a Wickerman sized strawman here.

There was also some nonsense that all our problems were caused by cars, but I argued this is the result of bad planning. I argued that the planning laws should be amended so that every new road, even in housing estates, should have cycle lanes.

If we are going to spend hundred of millions of euro then I want to see that put to good use. There are plenty of other equally worthy projects or causes that money could be spent on.

Well, cars are by definition traffic, so in a sense cars are the problem. Planning has been terrible and we lead a very car-centric life in Ireland due to this. The Greens have been quite clear on issues like one-off housing by the way.

I apologise, I haven't had time to go back through every page on this thread. But is the elephant in the room not our climate? The fact that it pisses rain here an awful lot? I ain't swapping my car for no one. Cycling to work would add twenty mins each way to my commute. On very busy roads. In the rain. No thanks.
It may be ok in the cities, I'm not sure, I've never lived in one. But out in the country is not going to work, ever, and Eamon Ryan better get used to that idea.