If Work From Home becomes a thing...

bladespin · 25-06-2020 04:38PM

beauf wrote: »

If you have clear metrics to achieve you can create business intelligence system than track this.

I did lol a little at this (you are right btw) but our MD (semi retired) loves sales figures, that's his immediate gauge of performance (our financial controller does the proper maths), all my main capital sales of the year so far came while I was working at home, I even joked with him about it becoming a regular thing and he's into the idea - it was luck tbh, my capital sales are developed over a long time the orders just happened to appear around the same time.

beauf · 25-06-2020 06:05PM

Cyrus wrote: »

of course, but you dont need a business intelligence system to identify workers who arent pulling their weight.

Identifying them isnt the issue.

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

I don't really get how tracking if people are working or not is seen as such a challenge or requiring elaborate ways of doing.....

... and we are here because people are saying WFH won't work because you need to see them doing the work, or a manager has to over see them.

Once you do data analysis of problems or workflows, and automation, or workloads, you often find a couple of things. What you thought was taking all the time generally isn't, is usually something unexpected. What generally saves the most times, is immediate access to information and analysis.

I've never found peoples hunches to be that reliable. Far better to measure twice and cut once. In terms of productivity, not all workloads are obvious or linear. you might find the person in a 6am everyday who never leaves their desk and comlaining about a massive workload is not doing very much at all. But the person who doesn't seem to that busy, has actually works much faster so doesn't show any stress at all.

I was wondering if WFH would show up the bluffers, but they seem to be able to do exactly the same working from home.

Cyrus · 25-06-2020 06:59PM

beauf wrote: »

... and we are here because people are saying WFH won't work because you need to see them doing the work, or a manager has to over see them.

Once you do data analysis of problems or workflows, and automation, or workloads, you often find a couple of things. What you thought was taking all the time generally isn't, is usually something unexpected. What generally saves the most times, is immediate access to information and analysis.

I've never found peoples hunches to be that reliable. Far better to measure twice and cut once. In terms of productivity, not all workloads are obvious or linear. you might find the person in a 6am everyday who never leaves their desk and comlaining about a massive workload is not doing very much at all. But the person who doesn't seem to that busy, has actually works much faster so doesn't show any stress at all.

I was wondering if WFH would show up the bluffers, but they seem to be able to do exactly the same working from home.

Surely you don’t have bluffers or they have been found out If you have this business intelligence system ? Or is it not actually in place where you work?

mr_fegelien · 25-06-2020 07:01PM

I don't see WFH can be a thing (or school frome home/SFM).

I've been in the house 4 months from school and for the first time in 2 years, was seriously considering suicide. How can anyone want to work from home or go to school from home? I think leaving your house is better for mental health IMO.

kippy · 25-06-2020 07:14PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I don't see WFH can be a thing (or school frome home/SFM).

I've been in the house 4 months from school and for the first time in 2 years, was seriously considering suicide. How can anyone want to work from home or go to school from home? I think leaving your house is better for mental health IMO.

WFH is a thing. It's been around decades.
The last 4 months have forced a number of places and employees into it.
Its not a bad thing that organisations who would have never considered it have been forced to have a look at it.
In an ideal work if your job can be done from home there is no reason why you can't do a do a couple of days a week/month from home.
Everyone is different.

Learning from home has been around decades also. Depending on your age and lifestyle there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's how I've done most of my education.

Having a good work life balance is good for your mental health. Working from home does not preclude you from leaving the house......

25-06-2020 07:31PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I don't see WFH can be a thing (or school frome home/SFM).

I've been in the house 4 months from school and for the first time in 2 years, was seriously considering suicide. How can anyone want to work from home or go to school from home? I think leaving your house is better for mental health IMO.

Many people find it of great benefit as you will see if you read though the thread.

Jim2007 · 25-06-2020 07:40PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I don't see WFH can be a thing (or school frome home/SFM).

Well first of all it is already a thing. And remote schooling has been going for a very long time in places like Australia for instance.

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I've been in the house 4 months from school and for the first time in 2 years, was seriously considering suicide. How can anyone want to work from home or go to school from home? I think leaving your house is better for mental health IMO.

Working from home does not mean you don't go out. It just means you don loose one or two hours travelling everyday and you have more time to get engaged in local stuff - clubs, events etc...

beauf · 25-06-2020 08:06PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Surely you don’t have bluffers or they have been found out If you have this business intelligence system ? Or is it not actually in place where you work?

Sometimes people don't want records or to be proved wrong. It's why micromanaging is self sustaining.

OMM 0000 · 25-06-2020 08:08PM

bilbot79 wrote: »

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

I've been working from home for 6 months.

The problem with your "Buy a place in the Canaries" idea is it's much much much harder to get a job in Ireland while living in the Canaries.

limnam · 25-06-2020 08:15PM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've been working from home for 6 months.

The problem with your "Buy a place in the Canaries" idea is it's much much much harder to get a job in Ireland while living in the Canaries.

Nothing stopping you from been there for a few months of the year though?

Why would it be more difficult if you have a residency in dub?

OMM 0000 · 25-06-2020 09:57PM

limnam wrote: »

Nothing stopping you from been there for a few months of the year though?

Why would it be more difficult if you have a residency in dub?

100% agree with the "few months of the year" idea.

My issue is with the idea of moving somewhere cheap and thinking you can keep getting Irish jobs. I say this because I tried it when I lived in Russia (middle of nowhere). You end up becoming isolated as you lose the face to face which is invaluable.

seamus · 26-06-2020 09:04AM

OMM 0000 wrote: »

100% agree with the "few months of the year" idea.

My issue is with the idea of moving somewhere cheap and thinking you can keep getting Irish jobs. I say this because I tried it when I lived in Russia (middle of nowhere). You end up becoming isolated as you lose the face to face which is invaluable.

This. We're starting to look at making all new hires remote hires by default. But a key requirement will be the ability (or at least willingness) to get to the office one or twice a month. Whether it's for planning meetings or just a pissup, there is always decent value in a certain amount of face-to-face interaction.

I know plenty of people will say they've worked remote for years and never see colleagues from one side of the year to the next. However at our core we are social animals and we gain value out of in-person encounters.

My experience of nearly a decade now of working in companies with dispersed or fully remote teams is that team cohesion is always improved by the odd in-person meeting, even if it's every six months or even once a year. It's probably a trick of the brain, but there's some weird trust/respect switch that goes in your brain when the person is standing in front of you.

It's doesn't make any logical sense, but that's human nature.

The problem with the idea of spending a few months a year somewhere else is that your employer needs to be onboard. Even if you work 100% remote in Lifford, that doesn't mean your employer will be comfortable with you heading off to the Canaries for four months. What if a pandemic hits? What if a volcano goes off? Will your connectivity over there be good enough for work? Will there be a time difference, etc?

Of course you have the personal logistical issues too. Do you earn enough money to go live in the Canaries for 4 months of the year (i.e. keeping your Irish house and your Spanish one)? Will you be able to rent a property with the connectivity / reliability you need? Will you have all of the equipment you need?

It sounds like a nice idea, but whether it's realistic is the question.

Lumen · 26-06-2020 09:35AM

The trick to making this work is to avoid having a mixed office/remote culture. It doesn't work. The more remote people will get marginalised as the office based people will get lazy and start to talk about things wihout them.

Once everyone is remote, at least within a given function, then it balances out.

Conf calls (hateful though they are) are terrible when a couple of people on the call are at different desks in the same room, even with headphones, because they are hearing the same audio offset by lag.

All the tech works better when everyone is physically distanced.

So if you're looking to go remote, don't try and get a remote position in an office-based org. Join an org which has fully embraced it. And build your network, because whilst remote hiring is a thing (LinkedIn has just introduced some features for remote hiring) the more people who know what you can do, the less likely you are to have to travel for interviews, because you probably won't ever have an interview that isn't a formality.

Fann Linn · 26-06-2020 09:41AM

bilbot79 wrote: »

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

.... Or couldn't your boss just exploit working from home and get someone cheaper in Gdansk or Goa instead of yourself!

Be careful of what you wish for Bill.

ELM327 · 26-06-2020 09:44AM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I don't see WFH can be a thing (or school frome home/SFM).

I've been in the house 4 months from school and for the first time in 2 years, was seriously considering suicide. How can anyone want to work from home or go to school from home? I think leaving your house is better for mental health IMO.

With the greatest of respect, that;'s a you problem, not a WFH problem.

ELM327 · 26-06-2020 09:44AM

Fann Linn wrote: »

.... Or couldn't your boss just exploit working from home and get someone cheaper in Gdansk or Goa instead of yourself!

Be careful of what you wish for Bill.

There are tax implications to changing worker location.
Not to mention, they could already do that.

Fann Linn · 26-06-2020 09:48AM

ELM327 wrote: »

There are tax implications to changing worker location.
Not to mention, they could already do that.

Didn't know about the tax thanks. As for your other point although they could always have done it, for a lot of employers perhaps now they can see that it can actually work from wfh.

Mike3287 · 26-06-2020 10:44AM

Fann Linn wrote: »

For a lot of employers perhaps now they can see that it can actually work from wfh.

This!

WFH and a high cost workforce, makes alotta sense that:pac:

26-06-2020 02:30PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Not to mention, they could already do that.

They could have already reduced office space to save costs and have people WFH. They didn't. Until now.

"They could have already done that" is not a guarantee that they won't, same as now allowing full-time WFH.

cloudatlas · 27-06-2020 11:49AM

Are there any decent jobs that currently allow working from home?

I would also like this to continue... and I'd love to move countries.

kippy · 27-06-2020 11:52AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Are there any decent jobs that currently allow working from home?

I would also like this to continue... and I'd love to move countries.

Define "Decent"?

cloudatlas · 27-06-2020 11:53AM

kippy wrote: »

Define "Decent"?

What ya got?

cloudatlas · 27-06-2020 01:01PM

Mr.S wrote: »

Most office based jobs at the moment (that are hiring) are starting people off fully remote, with the intention to return to an office at some point in the near future (probably Septemberish on a phased basis for many offices).

If you want fully remote work, tech support @ home from the likes of eBay and Apple usually have hiring sprints every year. It's a call centre type job, but at home.

What do you mean by "I'd like to move countries"?

Yes I know, my own job is currently work from home until September.

Remote working that would enable you to work anywhere, I only know a few people who work from home, one is a romance writer, the other writes legal documents....

Yes I've read the apple remote working thread.

kippy · 27-06-2020 01:53PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

What ya got?

You're not fit to work from home long term if you cannot answer a simple question tbh.
No point giving you any advice or pointers if you've not defined your parameters.

quokula · 28-06-2020 11:23AM

Working remotely is one thing, but working remotely and moving around different countries creates all kinds of legal and tax related headaches for your employer so it’s only really realistic if you’re a contractor rather than an employee.

strandroad · 28-06-2020 12:18PM

quokula wrote: »

Working remotely is one thing, but working remotely and moving around different countries creates all kinds of legal and tax related headaches for your employer so it’s only really realistic if you’re a contractor rather than an employee.

That's correct. Now you could do extended or frequent trips to your Portugal villa if you wish but you need to stay under certain limits to avoid local employment and revenue laws kicking in.

shesty · 28-06-2020 12:28PM

seamus wrote: »

This. We're starting to look at making all new hires remote hires by default. But a key requirement will be the ability (or at least willingness) to get to the office one or twice a month. Whether it's for planning meetings or just a pissup, there is always decent value in a certain amount of face-to-face interaction.

I know plenty of people will say they've worked remote for years and never see colleagues from one side of the year to the next. However at our core we are social animals and we gain value out of in-person encounters.

My experience of nearly a decade now of working in companies with dispersed or fully remote teams is that team cohesion is always improved by the odd in-person meeting, even if it's every six months or even once a year. It's probably a trick of the brain, but there's some weird trust/respect switch that goes in your brain when the person is standing in front of you.

It's doesn't make any logical sense, but that's human nature.

The problem with the idea of spending a few months a year somewhere else is that your employer needs to be onboard. Even if you work 100% remote in Lifford, that doesn't mean your employer will be comfortable with you heading off to the Canaries for four months. What if a pandemic hits? What if a volcano goes off? Will your connectivity over there be good enough for work? Will there be a time difference, etc?

Of course you have the personal logistical issues too. Do you earn enough money to go live in the Canaries for 4 months of the year (i.e. keeping your Irish house and your Spanish one)? Will you be able to rent a property with the connectivity / reliability you need? Will you have all of the equipment you need?

It sounds like a nice idea, but whether it's realistic is the question.

I'd actually tighten that to once a month, maybe even once a fortnight.

If you walk fresh into a job, meeting people for an hour every 6 months or so isn't really that beneficial.

My own place is very flexible, and I can do my job from home, but my preference would be 1-2 days in the office each week, I think.Just to move things along more smoothly (the nature of my work).Some people I am better to speak to in the flesh, it's more productive.

As for people who think childcare costs will decrease due to WFH...eh, no.Young kids have the heaviest childcare costs and it is no easy job to work with kids around, and impossible when they are young. (I can testify to this particularly after the last 4 months).If they were school-going you would likely get work done while they are in school (4/5 hours ) and then end up logging in at night or something to make up hours, depending on what your employer requires, and most people don't like that.It might help a small bit in terms of your commuting time meaning kids spend less time in childcare but overall I reckon the decrease in childcare costs would be minimal if you were WFH full/most of the time.

mvl · 28-06-2020 12:52PM

Wonder how many ppl who are keen to go back to work in the office also have hot desk-ing policies in place, or do they have nominated desk ? Anything expected to change for such work arrangements after going back ?

- Assume the collocation needed for some teams doesn't work when hot desk-ing by default (e.g. if ppl reserve desks via some tools then it is not true hot desking).

jester77 · 28-06-2020 01:14PM

quokula wrote: »

Working remotely is one thing, but working remotely and moving around different countries creates all kinds of legal and tax related headaches for your employer so it’s only really realistic if you’re a contractor rather than an employee.

Where I work we cannot spend more than half the working year working outside Germany for tax reasons. There is probably something similar in the Irish tax system.

Technocentral · 28-06-2020 07:55PM

mvl wrote: »

Wonder how many ppl who are keen to go back to work in the office also have hot desk-ing policies in place, or do they have nominated desk ? Anything expected to change for such work arrangements after going back ?

- Assume the collocation needed for some teams doesn't work when hot desk-ing by default (e.g. if ppl reserve desks via some tools then it is not true hot desking).

So called "hot desking" is American Capitalist bs that only **** subscribe to.

If Work From Home becomes a thing...

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