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Air pulled in the Heating system / life lesson

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  • 25-06-2020 6:29pm
    #1
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭


    Summary:
    In the heating period oil boiler would stall every 2-3 days and i have to bleed the system to make it work again. The only way how to do it is by either bleeding through the circulation pump (see attachment) or by bleeding at Non-return valve as air is present only in the feeding pipe and very rearly it would get to the main loop. Oil boiler works until I believe burner thermostat kicks in and shuts it down.

    Heating system:
    Warmflow KP90HE oil boiler (attachment), Autotopup system , 3 zones (Ground floor, First floor and Hot water), feeding valve always opened.

    A bit of context around:
    May 2019 we got Warmflow KP90HE oil burner installed. This part is absolutely our fault as we picked the cheapest option (1500e difference for the same boiler) was promissed warranty and service, but now installer is not responding after few visits when he fixed the issue by bleeding the system and saying - everything is going to be okay and warranty by Warmflow is invalid as documentation wasn't filled out properly and final calibration was not done.

    In June 2019 we got this issue for the first time, so original installer came over, bled the system and it was working fine until February 2020.
    Thats when the hell started, because I quoted around for the burner at the time of buying and we live in quite small village - all other installers refused to come over and check -Blaming our installer.

    I don't see any leaks, changed the Automatic Bleeding valve. No idea what to do next. Strangest thing is that if using only the Hot Water zone - issue is not present, but if using any of the other zones, then system will have to be bled every 2-3 days, very rarely once a day.

    I understand it is not easy to troubleshoot as issue appears only once in few days.

    If anyone from co.Longford reads this and is willing to give it a shot - PM me,
    Otherwise - can anyone please point me in the right direction how to proceed from here? I'm a hands on person, but heating is something new for me.

    Research in Google mainly shows results for people having air in the main loop and by changing Automatic bleeder most problems are solved, in my case - I have no idea where to look.

    Life lesson is: Bought cheap, now have to deal with it myself.


«13

Comments

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    #2
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Well just to put 1 thing to bed; the oil boiler is unlikely to be the cause of your problems. It is most likely a plumbing issue. So even a new boiler will not cure your problem. An auto fill valve is a cop out by someone who didn't fix a leak or expansion vessel.

    How old is the plumbing? Sealed or open vented?

    I am unsure of the exact behaviour of your boiler.
    When starting from cold with all zones on, give me a step by step report of what happens.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #3
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    Can you post a photo of the NR valve and any pressure gauges, also the expansion vessel (if fitted), how many cold water tanks in your attic?.


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    #4
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    Wearb wrote: »
    Well just to put 1 thing to bed; the oil boiler is unlikely to be the cause of your problems. It is most likely a plumbing issue. So even a new boiler will not cure your problem. An auto fill valve is a cop out by someone who didn't fix a leak or expansion vessel.

    How old is the plumbing? Sealed or open vented?

    I am unsure of the exact behaviour of your boiler.
    When starting from cold with all zones on, give me a step by step report of what happens.
    House was built in 2005.
    I think it qualifies as open vented, as the valve is all the time opened and it feeds water whenever it needs it.
    At the times when bleeding is needed -
    Starting cold: Boiler will start, heat up to certain temperature and then will throttle by turning off and on. Time between on and off is very long as believe burner cools down and the starts again. Must be some kind of internal thermo protection.
    If it is started, it has never failed, only from the cold start the air is an issue. Could it be because of expansion-contraction? Pressure reduces when cooling down and it pulls air somewhere in?

    Regards autofill valve, sorry, i worded it wrong, it is just a non return valve.


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    #5
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    Can you post a photo of the NR valve and any pressure gauges, also the expansion vessel (if fitted), how many cold water tanks in your attic?.
    1 cold water tank in the attic.
    No pressure gauges present for the heating system, the only gauge is on the burner and it is at 3 bar mark all the time.
    Expansion vessel is fitted. Not sure how to check if it is functioning.


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    #6
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    if im reading this correctly

    it could be a faulty boiler thermostat warmflow stats are known for this intermittent on / off ****

    would be suspicious of 3bar on gauge all the time as well could be expansion vessel issue also


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    #7
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    jimf wrote: »
    if im reading this correctly

    it could be a faulty boiler thermostat warmflow stats are known for this intermittent on / off ****

    would be suspicious of 3bar on gauge all the time as well could be expansion vessel issue also

    Faulty thermostat doesn't explain why it works if I bleed the air from the circulation pump.

    3bar gauge is on the burner itself, could it be fuel pressure?


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    #8
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    is this the same plumber who fitted the boiler that told you about warmflow warranty not standing

    because if it is its up to him to return the boiler passport to kickstart the warranty for you

    this is a cop out on his behalf if so


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    #9
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    traume wrote: »
    Faulty thermostat doesn't explain why it works if I bleed the air from the circulation pump.

    3bar gauge is on the burner itself, could it be fuel pressure?


    certainly 3bar not oil pressure related

    any chance circulating pump is faulty

    post a pic of gauge


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    #10
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    jimf wrote: »
    is this the same plumber who fitted the boiler that told you about warmflow warranty not standing

    because if it is its up to him to return the boiler passport to kickstart the warranty for you

    this is a cop out on his behalf if so

    I was going through the paperwork and wanted to make sure I have warranty. Turns out the installer doesn't even have the equipment to perform the final calibration/tests to submit to Warmflow.

    My neighbour got the same boiler before me and were convinced she has the warranty. No she doesn't...
    I had a great recommendation from her as well before I broke out the news.

    I guess I saved over 40%, but now I have no warranty.


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    #11
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    traume wrote: »
    I was going through the paperwork and wanted to make sure I have warranty. Turns out the installer doesn't even have the equipment to perform the final calibration/tests to submit to Warmflow.

    My neighbour got the same boiler before me and were convinced she has the warranty. No she doesn't...
    I had a great recommendation from her as well before I broke out the news.

    I guess I saved over 40%, but now I have no warranty.

    back in 2019 a grant vortex would have cost you approx. 1350

    at the time warmflow would have at guess cost you 1150

    no point in beating urself up about it if its a plumbing issue boiler make doesn't come into it


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    #12
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    traume wrote: »
    Please see attached,

    cant see anything


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    #13
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    jimf wrote: »
    certainly 3bar not oil pressure related

    any chance circulating pump is faulty

    post a pic of gauge

    Please see attached.


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    #14
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    traume wrote: »
    Please see attached.


    that's not a gauge that's an air damper for the burner

    also just to add to your woes the hose on the oil supply to your burner should not be outside the cabin they are not weather proof


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    #15
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    You may find that the make up water is from that storage tank, I would get that poppet NRV removed and install a swing check valve on (or make) a short horizontal length of pipework, ensure the expansion vessel pre pressure is only ~ 0.3/0.5 bar and try that.
    My neighbour had/has a boiler very like that (can't remember the model just now but will find it) he did have a separate F&E tank but when when the boiler was installed it was converted to (semi) sealed with one of those poppet NR valves, it used to occasionally cut out on its thermostat (not trip) after a few minutes from cold, I replaced the poppet valve with a swing check and he had no more problems although he never had any air problems, the poppet valve was gunged up as well which of course didn't help matters.

    Boiler is a Warmflow B90HE.


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    #16
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    You may find that the make up water is from that storage tank, I would get that poppet NRV removed and install a swing check valve on (or make) a short horizontal length of pipework, ensure the expansion vessel pre pressure is only ~ 0.3/0.5 bar and try that.
    My neighbour had/has a boiler very like that (can't remember the model just now but will find it) he did have a separate F&E tank but when when the boiler was installed it was converted to (semi) sealed with one of those poppet NR valves, it used to occasionally cut out on its thermostat (not trip) after a few minutes from cold, I replaced the poppet valve with a swing check and he had no more problems although he never had any air problems, the poppet valve was gunged up as well which of course didn't help matters.

    Changing the valve actually makes a lot of sense. If the valve has got some debris inside it could start to seize up and not let enough water in.
    Do I understand it right- Swing check valve works on flow, but poppet nrv works by gravity pushing the water down? So if the pressure from the tank is not enough, then there would be lack of water in the system as it is condensing boiler and uses some amount of water on every run?!


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    #17
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    They both require a differential pressure to open, the swing check, negible, can't remember a poppet valve differential presure requirement but yes as depending on where its installed it may not open virtually a tall, your tank head pressure is ~ 0.3/0.5 bar (3/5M), remember the swing check must be installed on the horizontal.

    Any boiler should not consume any water on any/every run.


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    #18
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    They both require a differential pressure to open, the swing check, negible, can't remember a poppet valve differential presure requirement but yes as depending on where its installed it may not open virtually a tall, your tank head pressure is ~ 0.3/0.5 bar (3/5M), remember the swing check must be installed on the horizontal.

    At first I will try to change the poppet nrv. Then have to wait for few cooler days to test it out.
    Thanks, at least in my head it makes perfect sense.


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    #19
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    That Poppet valve looks a bit strange, check the arrow direction on it!.


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    #20
    Paullimerick
    Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭Paullimerick


    Why do people use spring or flap nrv off a tank in the attic. As any plumber worth his salt knows its so wrong. If it ever leaked back up through expansion. Change that to a auto fill valve. Blank pipe at the tank and connect other side to the mains. It sounds like to me a faulty pump.


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    #21
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    That Poppet valve looks a bit strange, check the arrow direction on it!.

    It is pointing downward.


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    #22
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    Paullimerick wrote: »
    Why do people use spring or flap nrv off a tank in the attic. As any plumber worth his salt knows its so wrong. If it ever leaked back up through expansion. Change that to a auto fill valve. Blank pipe at the tank and connect other side to the mains. It sounds like to me a faulty pump.

    Could be pump even though apparently no problems on hot water.

    Agree that make up should not be fed from CWST, lots of houses around me converted to gas fired boilers when gas became available and most were converted by bord gais approved personnel, in most cases they converted to semi sealed systems but all these houses had/have F&E tanks + combined vent&cold feed when built in 1970/72, I can only assume that the reason for not going the "proper" route was because a semi sealed system will run with the lowest possible pressures or maybe it was just pure laziness?.


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    #23
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    Paullimerick wrote: »
    Why do people use spring or flap nrv off a tank in the attic. As any plumber worth his salt knows its so wrong. If it ever leaked back up through expansion. Change that to a auto fill valve. Blank pipe at the tank and connect other side to the mains. It sounds like to me a faulty pump.

    Sorry, I'm not sure I understand, is the pressure in the system/expansion vessel lower then the pressure from the attic?
    For what ever reason I was under impression that pressure is quite high.


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    #24
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    Because (if) the make up is fed from a tank with water which may be potable then when the boiler heats up, the NRV closes and the expansion is taken up by the expansion vessel but if the NRV is leaking then danger of tank pollution from boiler/system contents including inhibitor.


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    #25
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    Because (if) the make up is fed from a tank with water which may be potable then when the boiler heats up, the NRV closes and the expansion is taken up by the expansion vessel but if the NRV is leaking then danger of tank pollution from boiler/system contents including inhibitor.

    This makes sense, but if it is connected to mains, can't it leak back? Is the pressure in the mains larger than pressure in the heating system?


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    #26
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    Could be pump even though apparently no problems on hot water.

    Agree that make up should not be fed from CWST, lots of houses around me converted to gas fired boilers when gas became available and most were converted by bord gais approved personnel, in most cases they converted to semi sealed systems but all these houses had/have F&E tanks + combined vent&cold feed when built in 1970/72, I can only assume that the reason for not going the "proper" route was because a semi sealed system will run with the lowest possible pressures or maybe it was just pure laziness?.

    Is there a way to test the waterpump or it has to be changed to test?

    Would it mean that waterpump sucks in the air and then airlocks?


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    #27
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    It could be the pump even though the system is OK on hot water only and you did say it ran from June 2019 to Feb 2020.
    You have to start somewhere to resolve the issue and if you can't easily get a plumber in then maybe do the simple/easy things first.


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    #28
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,760 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Op, those Warmflow boilers have a few auto air vents on the pipes behind the pump. Make sure they’re all closed. It could be a simple thing like one of them sucking in air when the pump starts up.


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    #29
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Op, those Warmflow boilers have a few auto air vents on the pipes behind the pump. Make sure they’re all closed. It could be a simple thing like one of them sucking in air when the pump starts up.

    Not sure what exactly am I looking at, but will lift off the top lid tomorrow and check.


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    #30
    traume
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭traume


    John.G wrote: »
    It could be the pump even though the system is OK on hot water only and you did say it ran from June 2019 to Feb 2020.
    You have to start somewhere to resolve the issue and if you can't easily get a plumber in then maybe do the simple/easy things first.

    Thanks John, looks like I have to change the mindset on this. If changing nrv wont change anything, it well could be next step.

    Could faulty expansion vessel contribute to the issue?


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    #31
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭John.G


    traume wrote: »
    Not sure what exactly am I looking at, but will lift off the top lid tomorrow and check.

    Air Vents.


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