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Madeleine McCann

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Comments

  • #812
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The Netflix documentary had it that there was a note written in the restaurant reservations book that the group wanted that table at that time every night because their children were being left alone in the apartment nearby. I reckon some of the staff (restaurant, cleaner, whatever) saw this and tipped somebody off. They probably watched them, learned the routine, etc and had planned what to do with her (safehouse or whatever).

    I really doubt that it was opportunistic. I find it hard to believe that someone walked in there looking for cash and walked out with a child and were then able to avoid detection for 13 years (at least) despite the huge resources that have gone into this case in that time.

    It might make some sense if a staff member had tipped off that man “only” as they might have thought for the purpose of giving him an opportunity to perform a burglary, get easy cash lying around etc. from “rich holidaymakers who wouldn’t miss it too much”. Maybe he was paying for the tip off about goings-on generally in that complex, as a lady had been raped there also. If this were the case, the staff member might not have realised that he was after anything more than easy money, except that surely they would have realised about the rape having been probably done by himself. Or maybe the staff member is just as much as a scumbag as himself, maybe even watching videos he made when committing his very evil crimes.


  • #813
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It might make some sense if a staff member had tipped off that man “only” as they might have thought for the purpose of giving him an opportunity to perform a burglary, get easy cash lying around etc. from “rich holidaymakers who wouldn’t miss it too much”. Maybe he was paying for the tip off about goings-on generally in that complex, as a lady had been taped there also. If this were the case, the staff member might not have realised that he was after anything more than easy money, except that surely they would have realised about the rape having been probably done by himself. Or maybe the staff member is just as much as a scumbag as himself, maybe even watching videos he made when committing his very evil crimes.

    I find the burglary angle hard to believe because it would be very risky going into an apartment with people (albeit children) there and the parents 50m away. Much less risky targeting apartments that are empty during the day. Also the idea that the guy walked out with a child and with no plan whatsoever and every move was pure spur of the moment and yet got everything right and was not able to be traced seems very farfetched.


  • #814
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It might make some sense if a staff member had tipped off that man “only” as they might have thought for the purpose of giving him an opportunity to perform a burglary, get easy cash lying around etc. from “rich holidaymakers who wouldn’t miss it too much”. Maybe he was paying for the tip off about goings-on generally in that complex, as a lady had been taped there also. If this were the case, the staff member might not have realised that he was after anything more than easy money, except that surely they would have realised about the rape having been probably done by himself. Or maybe the staff member is just as much as a scumbag as himself, maybe even watching videos he made when committing his very evil crimes.


    doesn't make sense.


    So many easy touches during the day time. This would have been much riskier


  • #815
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »
    doesn't make sense.


    So many easy touches during the day time. This would have been much riskier

    I was thinking of the cover of darkness being a factor in favour of the intruder, drink being taken by family, friends others at that time to maybe decrease their attention, and with being able to watch their typical pattern sitting together at that table. Eg, if a parent had been to the apartment and then went back to table and settled back to conversation with the group of friends, then it would have been reasonably safe to take the opportunity to burgle.

    By daytime, everything is so much more visible, people are more generally alert to things, more movement and eyes about the place, maybe the parents movements were less predictable with going back to apartment to fetch beach things etc.


  • #816
    screamer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭screamer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    People might get the impression that Calpol (Paracetamol) causes drowsiness. This is basically because an unwell child, hitherto in pain, can finally catch up on much needed sleep when their pain level is greatly reduced by having taken a painkiller. Give it to a child who has been sleeping normally and is not in any pain etc, it will have no effect.

    Back then there were various medications that you could buy otc that would make a child drowsy ( not calpol) I know a co worker of mine used to give this to their kids. Same co worker would leave kids in holiday apartment unattended with baby monitor and head for dinner with their partner and baby monitor, and saw nothing wrong with that. Different times I suppose.


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  • #817
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    screamer wrote: »
    Back then there were various medications that you could buy otc that would make a child drowsy ( not calpol) I know a co worker of mine used to give this to their kids. Same co worker would leave kids in holiday apartment unattended with baby monitor and head for dinner with their partner and baby monitor, and saw nothing wrong with that. Different times I suppose.

    Yes, even now first generation antihistamines, which have sedative effects, are still on sale. Travel sickness tablets typically have a sedative side-effect. As doctors they would/should have known the effects of varying doses, also the fact that it is preferable never to give a child sedative medicines, especially very young children where side effects can be very dangerous, and risk of “cot death” would be very real. I think maybe the police were suspicious that this may have played a key role in Madeleine’s death.


  • #818
    Banana Republic.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Banana Republic.


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I was thinking of the cover of darkness being a factor in favour of the intruder, drink being taken by family, friends others at that time to maybe decrease their attention, and with being able to watch their typical pattern sitting together at that table. Eg, if a parent had been to the apartment and then went back to table and settled back to conversation with the group of friends, then it would have been reasonably safe to take the opportunity to burgle.

    By daytime, everything is so much more visible, people are more generally alert to things, more movement and eyes about the place, maybe the parents movements were less predictable with going back to apartment to fetch beach things etc.

    Also factor in either Gerry or Kate said they felt like someone was in the apartment at one of their checks. Nothing adds up at all. The fact Madeline has never been found, not even a sniff or a trace is unbelievable but sadly true. Whoever it was had it planned to perfection, not waking the twins, heading off with a 3 year old in his/her arms. The family pattern would of been easy to trace, they could of sat in the same restaurant for a few nights and listened to them and seen their routine every single night. It’s definitely not a first timers luck, whoever done it has previous if it was an outsider.


  • #819
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,199 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    screamer wrote: »
    Back then there were various medications that you could buy otc that would make a child drowsy ( not calpol) I know a co worker of mine used to give this to their kids. Same co worker would leave kids in holiday apartment unattended with baby monitor and head for dinner with their partner and baby monitor, and saw nothing wrong with that. Different times I suppose.

    It was only 15 years ago, I don't remember any of my children being dosed up to make them sleep. I do remember someone whose children are 15 years older again (maybe more) telling me about being given something for one particular child who had sleep problems. I don't think it was ever commonplace within the last 30 or more years though.

    Leaving a child with the baby monitor turned on is a completely different thing though. I know some parents won't do that either, but I don't think it's the same as leaving the child completely alone though. Because you can hear if they wake, or for that matter, if someone comes in.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #820
    screamer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭screamer


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It was only 15 years ago, I don't remember any of my children being dosed up to make them sleep. I do remember someone whose children are 15 years older again (maybe more) telling me about being given something for one particular child who had sleep problems. I don't think it was ever commonplace within the last 30 or more years though.

    Leaving a child with the baby monitor turned on is a completely different thing though. I know some parents won't do that either, but I don't think it's the same as leaving the child completely alone though. Because you can hear if they wake, or for that matter, if someone comes in.

    I wouldn’t agree with either practise being honest but I was shocked in conversations back then to hear from a few co workers that this dose ‘em and grab the baby monitor was quite commonplace when on holiday.


  • #821
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Banana Republic. wrote: »
    Also factor in either Gerry or Kate said they felt like someone was in the apartment at one of their checks. Nothing adds up at all. The fact Madeline has never been found, not even a sniff or a trace is unbelievable but sadly true. Whoever it was had it planned to perfection, not waking the twins, heading off with a 3 year old in his/her arms. The family pattern would of been easy to trace, they could of sat in the same restaurant for a few nights and listened to them and seen their routine every single night. It’s definitely not a first timers luck, whoever done it has previous if it was an outsider.

    It would puzzle me why, if they had felt someone was in the apartment, they didn’t act upon it. Eg, say one parent felt somebody else was present in another room, maybe that parent would not want to go into the other room without backup but at least they might make a call “darling, can you come over here right now to the apartment, it’s urgent”. Then when other parent would arrive they could both go into other rooms together. Or if no phone on either of them at time, slip out, lock the door behind them, race back over to the tapas bar and shout got reinforcement from other parent and some of their friends. You certainly wouldn’t just return to tapas bar and not mention anything about it straight away. Or am I missing something, is this what actually happened and next it was discovered that the child was missing? I haven’t seen the Netflix doc.


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  • #822
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,199 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    screamer wrote: »
    I wouldn’t agree with either practise being honest but I was shocked in conversations back then to hear from a few co workers that this dose ‘em and grab the baby monitor was quite commonplace when on holiday.

    Oh I definitely agree that dosing a child up on anything, even Calpol, to make them sleep is shocking (and I wondered about that too: shouldn't two doctors know that Calpol is not a sedative?)

    The baby monitor doesn't seem at all the same thing to me, but maybe that's where my own comfort level in childcare is situated? Would anyone say that it's madness to leave a child in a hotel room with a monitor? What is the minimum level of supervision you'd think was acceptable?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #823
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,734 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Has it been mentioned about the sighting in Spain a few weeks after the disappearance? A person claimed to have seen madeleine mccann with a man in a restaurant and then they left and got into a white camper van. Given that we now know this suspect had a van matching that description could this lend more credibility to this report? Scary to think she may have been kept alive at least for a while. :(


  • #824
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A red top suggests the suspect was “friendly” with an employee of the complex where the McCanns stayed:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396063/Madeleine-McCann-suspect-tipped-tourists-leaving-apartment-doors-open-inside-man.html


  • #825
    screamer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭screamer


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Has it been mentioned about the sighting in Spain a few weeks after the disappearance? A person claimed to have seen madeleine mccann with a man in a restaurant and then they left and got into a white camper van. Given that we now know this suspect had a van matching that description could this lend more credibility to this report? Scary to think she may have been kept alive at least for a while. :(

    It doesn’t bear thinking about. Saddest thing is, if this guy is responsible for all the abductions he’s currently being linked to,someone in a police department was asleep at the wheel and this guy was allowed free reign to reoffend. Awful.


  • #826
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I was thinking of the cover of darkness being a factor in favour of the intruder, drink being taken by family, friends others at that time to maybe decrease their attention, and with being able to watch their typical pattern sitting together at that table. Eg, if a parent had been to the apartment and then went back to table and settled back to conversation with the group of friends, then it would have been reasonably safe to take the opportunity to burgle.

    By daytime, everything is so much more visible, people are more generally alert to things, more movement and eyes about the place, maybe the parents movements were less predictable with going back to apartment to fetch beach things etc.

    People are moving around holiday apartment blocks all the time, holiday makers and various staff. The holiday makers are constantly changing so seeing someone you don't recognise is not a concern. If the abductor was tipped off by a staff member, that person could have surely arranged access or made it easier to move around undetected.

    And if there was some help, it is unlikely that the helper would have kept quite for so long if the intention was only a burglary. They thought they were aiding a small enough crime but it soon became one of the biggest news stories of the decade. The intense pressure they must have felt inevitably leads to mistakes or someone breaking ranks, particularly for those with no plan and acting on impulse.

    Then, having found himself with a child and having no plan whatsoever and making it up as he went along, was able to remain completely undetected from the moment he left the apartment to now, 13 years later. It would be the crime of the century to have gotten away with it for so long (and possibly for ever) despite all the resources that went into this case.


  • #827
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Latest suspect does sound interesting. That 30 minute phone call he received/made on the night of the disappearance could be vital. You'd wonder with paedo rings active in the area might she have been abducted by one of them and the German man was the one to do it. Its a horrible thought I know but not beyond possibility either.


  • #828
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I was thinking of the cover of darkness being a factor in favour of the intruder, drink being taken by family, friends others at that time to maybe decrease their attention, and with being able to watch their typical pattern sitting together at that table. Eg, if a parent had been to the apartment and then went back to table and settled back to conversation with the group of friends, then it would have been reasonably safe to take the opportunity to burgle.

    By daytime, everything is so much more visible, people are more generally alert to things, more movement and eyes about the place, maybe the parents movements were less predictable with going back to apartment to fetch beach things etc.


    If the goal was robbery.


    People notice fck all when on holidays. Nearly all apartments are empty for vast majority of parts of the day.


    If you're getting inside info from the hotel there's little or nothing to worry about.


    Choosing this easy touch over a risky positioned apartment with 3 kids in it.


    Doesn't make sense.


  • #829
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I’m going to try and post some screenshots from Streetview around the Ocran Club:


  • #830
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The McCanns corner ground floor apartment can be examined in Streetview:

    https://goo.gl/maps/nxYCMMtxxUrhZ4Co8

    https://goo.gl/maps/jUCHdpvN3e4TWexNA

    https://goo.gl/maps/yHhrFpgHQhKWsKEH7

    https://goo.gl/maps/gu36eQyonQK2UPpD7

    https://goo.gl/maps/gu36eQyonQK2UPpD7

    https://goo.gl/maps/HpHvKe4BCKn5rE7o6

    https://goo.gl/maps/HyBT1iieL9UVvaZ27

    https://goo.gl/maps/TXZg1yTmeE4KdBqz7

    The bottom link shows the back entrance to the Tapas bar.

    Edit - regrettably the links don’t work, but a Streetview exploration is somewhat informative.


  • #831
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    Had any other apartments signs of being robbed or tampered with that night? Or was that holiday villa robbed regularly anybody know?


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  • #832
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,411 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Un1corn wrote: »
    My two cents on this issue. The parents are innocent. I think if they were in on some cover-up they would not have made such a fuss about the case in the first place. Also given that they were eating 50m from the apartment where their friends were, I don't think they would even have time to hide the body and keep 10 people silent. It's not really credible.

    On the negligence aspect of things, I am sure thousands of parents have done similar things. When I think back to my own childhood, my parents were often in with the next-door neighbour's house having a pint or something and that would have been 200 metres across a field where I am from. I would be at home watching television or playing Nintendo and they would come and check up on me. Granted I was probably older than Madeline. I think all of the people calling for their heads are a bit clueless and 24/7 child supervision is just not possible. I doubt people calling for this have kids. I think the amount of scares around paedophiles is also overblown. We live in the age of 24/7 media and instant communication so it makes things appear out of proportion.

    I think they were unlucky and I feel sorry for them. Yes, they might have been too relaxed given they were in a foreign country but they have been punished enough with the loss of their daughter.

    I think it is frightening the number of people who nowadays believe in conspiracy theories. I enjoy them myself but goodness they are just entertainment. We shouldn't believe them all.


    Yes, the tabloids and certain wags try to make out the McCanns as being monstrously negligent and having a callous disregard for the children's safety. In actual fact, I think they made a lax decision that was punished because a freak variable was in play, unbeknownst to them.


  • #833
    Banana Republic.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Banana Republic.


    limnam wrote: »
    If the goal was robbery.


    People notice fck all when on holidays. Nearly all apartments are empty for vast majority of parts of the day.


    If you're getting inside info from the hotel there's little or nothing to worry about.


    Choosing this easy touch over a risky positioned apartment with 3 kids in it.


    Doesn't make sense.

    The goal was never robbery, oh I’ll rob saleable goods, oh wait there’s 3 kids I’ll pick one, flick a coin. I’m not being sarcastic to you but to consider it was robbery and then just took a child instead with no plan for that. Ludicrous.


  • #834
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Ha imagine having a brain and thinking there was a break in through shutters and the window


  • #835
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sweet.Science wrote: »
    Ha imagine having a brain and thinking there was a break in through shutters and the window

    Why would anyone climb in or out of a window when there’s at least one unlocked door.


  • #836
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    Banana Republic. wrote: »
    The goal was never robbery, oh I’ll rob saleable goods, oh wait there’s 3 kids I’ll pick one, flick a coin. I’m not being sarcastic to you but to consider it was robbery and then just took a child instead with no plan for that. Ludicrous.


    You're not been sarcastic.


    We're in agreement.


  • #837
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why would anyone climb in or out of a window when there’s at least one unlocked door.


    Why did Mrs McCann say the windows were open and curtains blowing?


  • #838
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    For a paedophile degenerate like himself the “first prize” of any break-in would be a child sexual attack, and if that failed, ie no child present after all, the “runner-up would be to thieve anything lying around.

    When he raped.the elderly woman in the complex a couple of years before, he prime motive to break-in might possibly have been robbery, but when he found her there his perverted lust to attack came over him. Or it might have been primary. It is said he used to live on thieving, so he would have made himself very familiar with the workings of a lot of the accommodation complexes in the resort and probably many others.


  • #839
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    For a paedophile degenerate like himself the “first prize” of any break-in would be a child sexual attack, and if that failed, ie no child present after all, the “runner-up would be to thieve anything lying around.

    When he raped.the elderly woman in the complex a couple of years before, he prime motive to break-in might possibly have been robbery, but when he found her there his perverted lust to attack came over him. Or it might have been primary. It is said he used to live on thieving, so he would have made himself very familiar with the workings of a lot of the accommodation complexes in the resort and probably many others.


    So assuming he's not a complete fcking idiot.


    Why was the window open and curtains blowing?


  • #840
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Sweet.Science wrote: »
    Ha imagine having a brain and thinking there was a break in through shutters and the window

    Ha imagine having the audacity & arrogance to assume you’ve cracked a case that 3 international police forces & numerous high regarded experts haven’t been able to solve, all from the comfort of your armchair.


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  • #841
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭limnam


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Ha imagine having the audacity & arrogance to assume you’ve cracked a case that 3 international police forces & numerous high regarded experts haven’t been able to solve, all from the comfort of your armchair.


    It's a fairly valid point tbh.


    Those shutters tend to be fairly noisy
    Awkward height. especially carrying a child
    Can be seen from a road

    At least carrying a child out the door is more natural.
    someone see's you with a child climbing out the window is fairly odd.


    The window been used for anything. Makes very little sense in any circumstances


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