A lockdown time trial idea - Fishing for interest

Swashbuckler · 31-05-2020 9:36pm

Fair point above. And you'll have a lot of reference points from the last two TT for where to set min starting pace.

skyblue46 · 31-05-2020 9:41pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Fair point above. And you'll have a lot of reference points from the last two TT for where to set min starting pace.

I want a head to head with ivory Tower...starting paces based off our Tinman easy paces as per the mile TT, no minimum pace increase.

jimmii · 31-05-2020 9:45pm

Let people choose their own starting time so they can make it as long or change the challenge for themselves. You could have as many groups as there was demand for but figured something like this would include most people here?

Group 1: starts at 6min/km
Group 2: starts at 5.30/km
Group 3: starts at 5/km

10 seconds quicker per km furthest wins tie breaker would be quickest last km in the event of a distance tie. First km would need to be +/- 5 seconds of the target time then each km at least 10s quicker than the preceeding one. Think I might go give it a try this week see how far I can get!

Lazare · 31-05-2020 9:53pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I think it's a great idea, but to cap the distance allowed would be a terrible idea IMHO. You're meant to get faster and faster and be limited by how fast you can go on tired legs. If you already know how man km you will go right from the start, half of the challenge and fun is gone.

If you really want additional rules, giving a certain range for the first k pace would be much better. Easy pace according to TT might work, for the ones who did one of the TTs at least. Keep in mind, the fewer rules the better.

You're right T, what do you think would be a good separator though for multiple people hitting the same distance?

Obv fastest time would be one but that just makes it impossible for many to compete.

What about biggest gap between first and last km?

This assumes a fair start pace, based off previous TT results or Strava history.
Two athletes run 12km. Athlete A starts at 6:20 pace and finishes at 4:35
Athlete B starts at 5:25 pace and finishes at 3:45.

Athlete A ranks above athlete B, with a 1:45 spread against a 1:40 spread.

Any holes in that?

pc11 · 01-06-2020 7:56am

OOnegative wrote: »

What about setting a specific distance, as C says measure it off kilometres. Each one has to be progressively faster than the last, if it isn’t your out of the race. Each participants starting pace is there easy pace measured off either there 5k TT or 1 mile TT?

Do this but also have a tiebreak that lowest total time wins. This reduces the incentive to game it too much.

Also you could set that the slowest and fastest KM should be no more than 2 minutes difference or some such.

BeepBeep67 · 01-06-2020 8:53am

Consideration, I always like to try and find a mathematical solution

Run 1 mile at your all out mile pace from the recent TT +50%.
Example 6min milers start at 9min/ml.
Each mile run 'at least' 5% faster than your 50% differential, in this case 9 secs.
Mile 1 = 09:00
Mile 2 = 08:51
Mile 3 = 08:42
ETC.......
Seems achieveable, mile 10 would be 07:39, Mile 13 07:18 (very close to McMillian HM pace off a 6 min/ml), of course if you run mile 1 in 8:55, your next mile needs to be at least 9 seconds faster.

This seems to work across the ranges and obviously if people don't want to run for 13 miles +, you can set at 6%, 7%, etc.

Dudda · 01-06-2020 9:01am

Another thing to consider is some people will have run a lot of progression runs in training and some will never have ran one. The experience will help a huge amount. Those who aren't used to progression runs will be looking at their watch every 10 seconds and it will be a higher level maths assignment for others.

Does an app or Garmin widget exist that says speed up or slow down after you program everything in? I've only once attempted a progression run and had the paces all over the place.

shotgunmcos · 01-06-2020 10:17am

Progression run is a great idea and it's a great session too. How feasible is it to track though? I did a royal flush a while back and while I aimed for 10sec drop every mile I was +/- 3 secs or so and that was with the help of LL pace on the garmin etc

Not everyone will have the functionality etc..

It was undoubtedly a body of work to set up strava and boards thread, chase and validate users on both ends, motivate, track and verify results on strava, collate on a spreadsheet, edit, verify again and then cross fingers its all 99.99% right. How much work would that be to do to track and verify split times?!!

TFBubendorfer · 01-06-2020 10:22am

Dudda wrote: »

Another thing to consider is some people will have run a lot of progression runs in training and some will never have ran one. The experience will help a huge amount. Those who aren't used to progression runs will be looking at their watch every 10 seconds and it will be a higher level maths assignment for others.

Does an app or Garmin widget exist that says speed up or slow down after you program everything in? I've only once attempted a progression run and had the paces all over the place.

I haven't done THAT many progression runs but Lap pace works very well, I find. Set the lap distance accordingly and then you get pretty good feedback on you present lap.

skyblue46 · 01-06-2020 10:23am

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Progression run is a great idea and it's a great session too. How feasible is it to track though? I did a royal flush a while back and while I aimed for 10sec drop every mile I was +/- 3 secs or so and that was with the help of LL pace on the garmin etc

Not everyone will have the functionality etc..

It was undoubtedly a body of work to set up strava and boards thread, chase and validate users on both ends, motivate, track and verify results on strava, collate on a spreadsheet, edit, verify again and then cross fingers its all 99.99% right. How much work would that be to do to track and verify split times?!!

In a word.... impossible :pac:

As an idea it is something probably best suited to an ongoing thread devoted to progression runs. I just can't see it being manageable in the same way that the mile and 5k TTs were done.

OOnegative · 01-06-2020 10:25am

skyblue46 wrote: »

In a word.... impossible :pac:

As an idea it is something probably best suited to an ongoing thread devoted to progression runs. I just can't see it being manageable in the same way that the mile and 5k TTs were done.

Yeah, way to many variables for it to work the same way as the other TT’s.

Edit: Not bashing C’s idea BTW.

TFBubendorfer · 01-06-2020 10:52am

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Consideration, I always like to try and find a mathematical solution

Run 1 mile at your all out mile pace from the recent TT +50%.
Example 6min milers start at 9min/ml.
Each mile run 'at least' 5% faster than your 50% differential, in this case 9 secs.
Mile 1 = 09:00
Mile 2 = 08:51
Mile 3 = 08:42
ETC.......
Seems achieveable, mile 10 would be 07:39, Mile 13 07:18 (very close to McMillian HM pace off a 6 min/ml), of course if you run mile 1 in 8:55, your next mile needs to be at least 9 seconds faster.

This seems to work across the ranges and obviously if people don't want to run for 13 miles +, you can set at 6%, 7%, etc.

Just to clarify, I think we were talking about km progression, not miles. I know it would work either way but just as long as we're all talking the same workout!

Not convinced about the percentage calculations. I'll be struggling to correctly subtract 10 seconds from my target pace as the pace intensifies and my brain starts to shut down. I really don't think I'd be able to correctly adjust my target time by x % as we go along - and I'm a numbers guy!

Murph_D · 01-06-2020 11:56am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Just to clarify, I think we were talking about km progression, not miles. I know it would work either way but just as long as we're all talking the same workout!

Not convinced about the percentage calculations. I'll be struggling to correctly subtract 10 seconds from my target pace as the pace intensifies and my brain starts to shut down. I really don't think I'd be able to correctly adjust my target time by x % as we go along - and I'm a numbers guy!

Just write it on your hand!

Obviously it’s also possible to programme set lap paces into a Garmin workout and you’ll get aural and visual speed up / slow down feedback. Although of course that takes a lot of the fun and biofeedback out of it.

BeepBeep67 · 01-06-2020 12:17pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Just to clarify, I think we were talking about km progression, not miles. I know it would work either way but just as long as we're all talking the same workout!

Not convinced about the percentage calculations. I'll be struggling to correctly subtract 10 seconds from my target pace as the pace intensifies and my brain starts to shut down. I really don't think I'd be able to correctly adjust my target time by x % as we go along - and I'm a numbers guy!

Dug out one I done before

KSU · 01-06-2020 1:13pm

Could keep it simple

Keep it as racing format for say 10k.

Fastest 10k wins

Caveat being

- First km/mile is a designated easy pace (based off recent TT), can be calculated additionally on column instead of or beside predicted time)

- Every subsequent split has to be quicker.

Means people have to balance trying to run as fast as they can with making sure they don’t positive split. Keeps everyone honest while also ensuring they follow progression format

ThebitterLemon · 01-06-2020 4:37pm

Anything longer than about 10k and in my current state I’m out.

Really enjoyed the last one and it was simple.

The proposed taxonomic gyrations are hurting my head

TbL

ThebitterLemon · 01-06-2020 4:38pm

What about some thing like 3 events over 3 or more days?

A 400m, a mile and a 5k, mix it up a bit and give everyone a chance.

TbL

Murph_D · 01-06-2020 4:48pm

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Anything longer than about 10k and in my current state I’m out.

Really enjoyed the last one and it was simple.

The proposed taxonomic gyrations are hurting my head

TbL

I think, as has been suggested above, this kind of event is definitely more suited to being an ongoing challenge - something you can do in your own time whenever it suits. I know it can be simplified but at the same time I welcome its complexity, which poses its own challenges! (If you can't use the watch properly for a mile TT what chance do you have for this kind of thing).

Certainly something I would have a go at - I like beepbeep's variation based on TT pace. I'd like to think I could get to mile 14 or 15 based on that (could be wrong!) The challenge would be to keep going til it breaks you.

skyblue46 · 01-06-2020 5:44pm

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

What about some thing like 3 events over 3 or more days?

A 400m, a mile and a 5k, mix it up a bit and give everyone a chance.

TbL

It's a great idea...but the problem on here is getting someone to take it on

TFBubendorfer · 01-06-2020 6:12pm

Well, I for one still love the idea of the progression run.

However, why does it have to be a competitive format? Why not let everyone do a workout as described originally: run every k (or mile) faster than the previous one and as soon as you slow down you're out. End of story, no real need for a ranking table.

Then we regale the rest of the world with our heroic war stories, slag of anyone who messed it up and watch TbL try and do it 3 times in one day.

BeepBeep67 · 01-06-2020 8:05pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Just to clarify, I think we were talking about km progression, not miles. I know it would work either way but just as long as we're all talking the same workout!

Not convinced about the percentage calculations. I'll be struggling to correctly subtract 10 seconds from my target pace as the pace intensifies and my brain starts to shut down. I really don't think I'd be able to correctly adjust my target time by x % as we go along - and I'm a numbers guy!

Just to clarify this, if your progression is to be 10 secs faster per split that's all you need to remember and your previous split. If you run too fast tough, your next split needs to be at least 10 seconds faster.

TFBubendorfer · 01-06-2020 9:01pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Just to clarify this, if your progression is to be 10 secs faster per split that's all you need to remember and your previous split. If you run too fast tough, your next split needs to be at least 10 seconds faster.

Yes, I get that. 10 seconds I can handle, I think. It's anything more complicated than that I'm struggling with.

Oh, and you should be disqualified. For showing up the rest of us. :P

Dubh Geannain · 02-06-2020 10:04am

Murph_D wrote: »

Certainly something I would have a go at - I like beepbeep's variation based on TT pace. I'd like to think I could get to mile 14 or 15 based on that (could be wrong!) The challenge would be to keep going til it breaks you.

You've reminded me of the Beep test. Haven't done one myself since secondary school. I've seen a few YouTubers take it on in the last year. Although with the short sharp turns it could be easily cheated if only going by GPS.

MY BAD · 02-06-2020 10:22am

Keep it simple. I like the idea of a relay but I'm not sure how you'd pick teams.

Swashbuckler · 02-06-2020 11:28am

MY BAD wrote:

Keep it simple. I like the idea of a relay but I'm not sure how you'd pick teams.

Easy enough to be honest. I think most of us know what kinda shape people are in on here. You could use a judgement and pick the most even teams within reason. Have four or five on a team with the top three scoring (to allow for dropouts).

It was something I was thinking about for the last TT (and was also suggested by KSU somewhere I think?) but between me having no time and S doing most of the heavy lifting it didn't materialise. It would add quite a bit to the workload for the organiser(s) though.

But to be honest, the first challenge is getting someone to volunteer. The next challenge is then deciding what the TT will be. I'd be happy to see any sort of TT, teams or no teams.

shotgunmcos · 02-06-2020 12:53pm

How about a The Perfect 10TT

Easy pick
10 miles - might suit mid to marathoners
10k - cause it's the sweet spot
10 minutes - a step up for the mile specialists

Just has to be 10x

Then set your own goal. It's got to be progressive and first mile/km/minute is easy or relatively easy.

Make it the prettiest progression and finish with an overall PB!
Drop each step by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...secs
Or your lucky number is say, 11. Drop by 11 secs each step.
Or steal someone elses perfect 10 progression idea too onthe day.

Basically everyone sets a goal for the perfect progressive 10, practice as often as you like but on the day is what counts and what you actually achieve. No %grading. Just great stories about what people learned, the satisfaction of finishing strong, PRs, unusual new workout ideas etc..

Thoughts?

Swashbuckler · 02-06-2020 1:52pm

I think the more inclusive it is the better. And I think something that will have multiple options like above would work very well. Giving people an option of 10mins, 10k or 10M caters to a lot of people. I'd worry a 10 miler alone will mean a lot of people who aren't in serious training won't take part.

skyblue46 · 02-06-2020 6:18pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I think the more inclusive it is the better. And I think something that will have multiple options like above would work very well. Giving people an option of 10mins, 10k or 10M caters to a lot of people. I'd worry a 10 miler alone will mean a lot of people who aren't in serious training won't take part.

I think the 10 mins, 10k and 10 mile on the one day would be brilliant and simple if we forget about the progression element. 3 different length TTs, J &M at the helm and away we go.

OOnegative · 02-06-2020 6:34pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think the 10 mins, 10k and 10 mile on the one day would be brilliant and simple if we forget about the progression element. 3 different length TTs, J &M at the helm and away we go.

+1 to this, leave the progression bit out & all out racing at whichever distance you choose. Be a great day!!

Pherekydes · 02-06-2020 7:05pm

I think I could manage 10 minutes. :pac:

A lockdown time trial idea - Fishing for interest

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