Derogation to the Wildlife Act 2020-21

yubabill · 14-05-2020 07:53PM

Feckers taking advantage of the lockdown to implement their "death by a thousand cuts"

Sean Fleming, Sean O'Fearghail, Marian Harkin, Matt Carthy (were MEP's but both TD's now) and Martin Heydon are some of the TD's who have helped us in the past.

We need NARGC and individuals to press the issue (NARGC on its own not enough, mostly concerned with game).

I'll bang off an email when I get the chance soon.

slipperyox · 14-05-2020 08:39PM

yubabill wrote: »

Feckers taking advantage of the lockdown to implement their "death by a thousand cuts"

Sean Fleming, Sean O'Fearghail, Marian Harkin, Matt Carthy (were MEP's but both TD's now) and Martin Heydon are some of the TD's who have helped us in the past.

We need NARGC and individuals to press the issue (NARGC on its own not enough, mostly concerned with game).

I'll bang off an email when I get the chance soon.

IFA

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 09:56PM

Latest from NARGC;

Wood pigeon control
NARGC press release: 14/05/2020

At the stroke of a pen Minister Josepha Madigan has removed from the tillage farmer the most effective form of crop protection from wood pigeon damage.
From May 31St this year until September 1st - wood pigeons cannot be controlled by means of shooting, the only really effective way.
When this decision was queried by the NARGC, the NPWS responded that the decision was based on professional objective scientific advice
We now invite the NPWS to publish this advice in full along with the sources of the said advice.
This change to the long established procedure is without any consultation with the people who have carried out this control for generations.
The conservation status of the wood pigeon is not threatened in any way.
Tillage farmers have enough to contend with; rain, wind, heat or cold, price and costs without losing yield to hordes of hungry pigeons.
The minister and the Parks and wildlife department seem far removed from the problems of the Irish farmer.
We question what or who is driving this decision!
We call upon the minister to immediately rescind this change to the established derogation that has worked well all down the years.

berettaman · 14-05-2020 10:04PM

mcbain087 wrote: »

Latest from NARGC;

Wood pigeon control
NARGC press release: 14/05/2020

At the stroke of a pen Minister Josepha Madigan has removed from the tillage farmer the most effective form of crop protection from wood pigeon damage.
From May 31St this year until September 1st - wood pigeons cannot be controlled by means of shooting, the only really effective way.
When this decision was queried by the NARGC, the NPWS responded that the decision was based on professional objective scientific advice
We now invite the NPWS to publish this advice in full along with the sources of the said advice.
This change to the long established procedure is without any consultation with the people who have carried out this control for generations.
The conservation status of the wood pigeon is not threatened in any way.
Tillage farmers have enough to contend with; rain, wind, heat or cold, price and costs without losing yield to hordes of hungry pigeons.
The minister and the Parks and wildlife department seem far removed from the problems of the Irish farmer.
We question what or who is driving this decision!
We call upon the minister to immediately rescind this change to the established derogation that has worked well all down the years.

I heard this evening that NARGC and IFA are going to tackle this together. It is the only logical way.

The change was so absurd that it looked like an error.

Looks like someone is trying to curry favour with the greens.

Birdnuts · 14-05-2020 11:14PM

mcbain087 wrote: »

This is the reply from NPWS ;

Further to your email below to John Fitzgerald, the new signed Declaration is now published on the NPWS website – link below. The woodpigeon is included on the Declaration to prevent damage to crops except for the June to August period as our advice is that there is limited evidence to suggest that woodpigeon cause serious damage to crops during the summer period. Should woodpigeon be seen to cause damage to crops during this period, landowners can apply for Section 42 permits under the Wildlife Acts.
Regards
Gerry

That is simply astonishing - WTF is giving them this "advice"?? Greta Thunberger??:rolleyes:

PS: At least you got a reply, so far all I've got is an "out of office" message:mad:

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 11:35PM

I have been chasing answers for over 2 weeks at this point, starting with inquiring as to when derogation for current year would be released right up to this point.
In fairness I have received a few messages from npws even if it was only to acknowledge my emails but as most people are working remotely I was expecting some delays.
After receiving the reply I posted earlier, I then requested the meeting details / notes and any info on who gave or was asked to give any advice that led to this decision being made and received an out of office/ working remotely message.
I am waiting for a reply.

Grizzly 45 · 15-05-2020 12:57AM

Your problems freinds& neighbours is in BRUSSELS,yet again! The reason those months are used is simply this,the woodie is rearing the chicks in those months as they are still nestbound.So because the woodie is a compartively rare bird in Europe,the beuracratic think is the must be rare ALL over the EU.Same as crows are on the mainland.So there fore they must have prortection to raer their young.Again,MORE legislation that Ireland has been late to ratify from the EU Soviet,and was proably caught up on, during the lead ban talks. We are being brushed off here with Scientific advice BS,in th hope we will go away. so I'd suggest a mass mailing demanding under freedom of information act the following;
1] What scientific evidence is the dept basing this on?
2]Is this because of the EU NATURA directive ,making wood piegon a semi game bird based on EU legislation?
3] What factual scientific information recived by the dept has prompted this change of action?
5] What alternative methods to shooting does the dept suggest to prevent crop depredation?

Grizzly 45 · 15-05-2020 12:59AM

slipperyox wrote: »

IFA

I'm Fast Asleep![When it comes to firearms matters!]

Got him! · 15-05-2020 02:58AM

'shooting with rifle or shotgun' Is this not a contradiction to the 1976 WILDLIFE ACT which states that it is an offense to shoot any protected bird with a rifle?

Zxthinger · 15-05-2020 06:47AM

it's great timing from clowns too. We just going to be dealing with a fizzing pandemic and now farmers have to apply for section 42 that's has to have the crop protection agent nominated on what is a non transferable system.

Well done to the minister and the Secretary-general in that dept must also be a class act too.

cookimonster · 15-05-2020 07:37AM

Got him! wrote: »

'shooting with rifle or shotgun' Is this not a contradiction to the 1976 WILDLIFE ACT which states that it is an offense to shoot any protected bird with a rifle?

It is by its very nature and meaning a derogation to the law.

derogation

an exemption from or relaxation of a rule or law.

"countries assuming a derogation from EC law"

It is obvious from reading through social media that many of us actually shooting crows and pigeons have no idea as to the law or regulations. It is why I have been downloading a hard copy of the derogation in the past and keeping it with me while out decoying etc etc , incase joe or josephine dogooder has a melt down.

Just to clear this up, because there is are actual train wrecks of conversations on going on other social media platforms, here best to my knowledge are a few facts.

1. All wild birds are protected full stop - EU Bird directive.

2. Reared birds or wild game birds inculding pigeon can be hunted during particular seasons or under licence.

3. Under the EU directive each member state may enact a derogation in respect to bird species that may cause damage or destruction to crops, livestock, food / feed stores, wild fauna, reared pened birds, vector of disease.

4. The derogation lays down, species, reason for control, annual periods of control, method of control.

5. The derogation does not give everyone cart blanche to hunt birds you still must act with in the terms of the document. If you notice that feral pigeon is still on the derogation for the year but only in relation to threat to public heath, so decoying them or just flight shooting them over crops is not legal.

6. YES you can shoot over stubble as part of crop protection, this was proven through several court case between individuals and the NPWS and is backed by the NARGC.

7. As has been suggested elsewhere, there has been no change to legislation, there is no need for Dail approval for any changes etc.The annual derogation has to be signed every year by the Minister and prior to that there is a review or consultation process before its release. Serveral years back seagulls were added to the derogation for one particular location and that was that, no big fuss.

This is not a case of over stepping thier power or crushing the common man, the law is already there to prevent us shooting birds this is ( apologies for breaking protocols)...

....AN EXERCISE IN DOWN RIGHT STUPIDITY AND IGNORANCE BY INDIVIDUALS WHO SHOULD BY THE VIRTUE OF THIER RESPONSIBILITIES AND POSTION KNOW BETTER!.

and what we don't need now, not aimed at anyone here, are people from within our own ranks, ie hunters, or reputedly so coming out and 'welcoming this news' because there are far too many birds shot, its not crop protection when its over stubble, ohh forgein hunting tourists are coming in'. For feck sake makes me sick when you get so called hunters stirring the pot. This guys are either trolls in camo, wannabe's walther mitti type hunters or jealous lazy fecks who won't get off thier holes to hunt or find permissions.

Rant over...

berettaman · 15-05-2020 09:32AM

yubabill wrote: »

Feckers taking advantage of the lockdown to implement their "death by a thousand cuts"

Sean Fleming, Sean O'Fearghail, Marian Harkin, Matt Carthy (were MEP's but both TD's now) and Martin Heydon are some of the TD's who have helped us in the past.

We need NARGC and individuals to press the issue (NARGC on its own not enough, mostly concerned with game).

I'll bang off an email when I get the chance soon.

NARGC spent most of yesterday working on this issue.

They are not just interested in game, that is for sure.

Everyone that shoots pigeons for a farmer needs to contact their TD asap.

berettaman · 15-05-2020 09:34AM

Got him! wrote: »

'shooting with rifle or shotgun' Is this not a contradiction to the 1976 WILDLIFE ACT which states that it is an offense to shoot any protected bird with a rifle?

Saw that too. Wasn't going to mention it.;):D

yubabill · 15-05-2020 09:43AM

cookimonster wrote: »

It is by its very nature and meaning a derogation to the law.

It is obvious from reading through social media that many of us actually shooting crows and pigeons have no idea as to the law or regulations. It is why I have been downloading a hard copy of the derogation in the past and keeping it with me while out decoying etc etc , incase joe or josephine dogooder has a melt down.

Just to clear this up, because there is are actual train wrecks of conversations on going on other social media platforms, here best to my knowledge are a few facts.

1. All wild birds are protected full stop - EU Bird directive.

2. Reared birds or wild game birds inculding pigeon can be hunted during particular seasons or under licence.

3. Under the EU directive each member state may enact a derogation in respect to bird species that may cause damage or destruction to crops, livestock, food / feed stores, wild fauna, reared pened birds, vector of disease.

4. The derogation lays down, species, reason for control, annual periods of control, method of control.

5. The derogation does not give everyone cart blanche to hunt birds you still must act with in the terms of the document. If you notice that feral pigeon is still on the derogation for the year but only in relation to threat to public heath, so decoying them or just flight shooting them over crops is not legal.

6. YES you can shoot over stubble as part of crop protection, this was proven through several court case between individuals and the NPWS and is backed by the NARGC.

7. As has been suggested elsewhere, there has been no change to legislation, there is no need for Dail approval for any changes etc.The annual derogation has to be signed every year by the Minister and prior to that there is a review or consultation process before its release. Serveral years back seagulls were added to the derogation for one particular location and that was that, no big fuss.

This is not a case of over stepping thier power or crushing the common man, the law is already there to prevent us shooting birds this is ( apologies for breaking protocols)...

....AN EXERCISE IN DOWN RIGHT STUPIDITY AND IGNORANCE BY INDIVIDUALS WHO SHOULD BY THE VIRTUE OF THIER RESPONSIBILITIES AND POSTION KNOW BETTER!.

and what we don't need now, not aimed at anyone here, are people from within our own ranks, ie hunters, or reputedly so coming out and 'welcoming this news' because there are far too many birds shot, its not crop protection when its over stubble, ohh forgein hunting tourists are coming in'. For feck sake makes me sick when you get so called hunters stirring the pot. This guys are either trolls in camo, wannabe's walther mitti type hunters or jealous lazy fecks who won't get off thier holes to hunt or find permissions.

Rant over...

OK, so NPWs are saying there is little evidence that wood pigeon cause significant crop damage around harvest time or so.

And they need to carry out a review or consultation wrt derogation.

So it must have been a review, because there doesn't seem to have been a consultation (with shooters, anyway).

We need to question that review through our reps/TD's.

We need to know (through our reps/TD's) the scientific study/studies the new derogation is based on and whether it/they are relevant to the Irish situation wrt wood pigeon numbers, locations etc. and whether the study/studies had reference to or performed any control for their data/conclusions.

cookimonster · 15-05-2020 10:53AM

The NPWS are not going to consult with us the hunters unless its in reference to bag numbers and if the Woodcock survey is anything to go by the lack of take up by hunters is going to back fire on them, or so I'm led to believe. The only ones in consolation, I would say, are the farmers and the wild life experts, who ever they may be. We are the last chain in the link.

If my memory serves me right, technicaly the farmer is ment to inform the local wildlife ranger of his intentions to have the birds shot. Some may poo hoo this as impractical, unrealistic etc etc but regardless if you have put your foot wrong then you are in trouble. Is it your hide you want nailed to the door to set an example no matter how trivial it may be?

cookimonster · 15-05-2020 11:13AM

FIeld Sports Channel Ireland

https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/ireland-imposes-pigeon-season/amp/

berettaman · 15-05-2020 11:15AM

Hi Lads,

This is like what happened in the UK last year with wild justice and Natural England.

Don't bother taking your time to ring NARGC head office and give out to them about this. They were not consulted and have been tackling this at the highest levels with the help of the farming organisations. While calls are always appreciated it deflects from the war effort.

DO ring or email your local TD, make sure they know what is happening.

This is a Dublin minister signing off on something that she has been badly advised on.

NPWS think that they can pull this crap and shooters will blame each other and their reps and not focus on the faceless tools basing decisions on scientific evidence they cannot produce.

Let them know that this change it is not acceptable.

NO They did not consult any hunting organisation to my knowledge before making this change.

YES, I know the NARGC made submissions during the consultation process.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/tds/

Go find your TDs and let them know how you feel.;)

Uinseann_16 · 15-05-2020 01:17PM

My local TDs have been emailed
As for Cookimonsters small rant earlier ill have to echo it for one moment
As a younger shooter/hunter i think its an absolute disgrace the behaviour of certain elements and individuals in this community who would gladly see others sink so they may stay content,A house divided against itself cannot stand. Theres much more of the same along the way we all need to do our bit and not give an inch and email our representatives asking for more accountability.

Grizzly 45 · 15-05-2020 03:43PM

Done,both local and senator.

I think however folks we might need to do a written word campaign too.Emails are easily ignored. What would you think of a downloadable printable "postcard" campaign addressed to Mrs Madigan in her dept? Snail mail has to be deliverd no matter what.

The German Rifle Assoc did it last Nov about th mag ban,and it surprised the staff of the Ministers office on the sudden influx of mail that they had to deal with.Also,as this is going to a govt dept.You dont even have to stamp it.Its Freepost!

Either that or we have to blizzard the NPWS and dept email addys with our complaint.

Zxthinger · 15-05-2020 05:02PM

Every year there some thing being eroded or removed or banned or grandfathered. Wrong color, too long, to short or its to big.. Would ye all please just Bugger off/.. Every year another minstrel comes along and wants to do his/her bit..

Some time I wish I was in to golf or football. It seems to be that "My sport" has no importance in society. The fact that I have invested considerable time, effort and money in a sport that is in a truth a necessity in the rural environment seems to mean very little..

I'm form Dublin and this type of action from a Dublin based Minister makes mad.. I've met some of these minister and Councillors throughout the years and some are ok but they follow the crowd, the look for the vote. They rather get a bin on a street corner than house a family because a bin gets 100's of votes..

We need to rise up and show them that we are hundreds, if not thousands of votes and we want action and we will be recognized and acknowledged..

Rant over but I go along with action ACTION and grizzlys plan is good.. Real letters aren't as easily ignored so writing..

Grizzly 45 · 15-05-2020 06:35PM

On that point of writing.Anyone here a good graphics designer or can work with a computer to produce a post card sized picture that can be downloaded in a file here.Somthing eye catchinng with a quick&snappy message.Like No shooting...No food! or the like...Anyone up to that?

Uinseann_16 · 15-05-2020 06:39PM

A website like Fiverr would be a good place to look too, if anyone can come up with a good basic design to work from

Zxthinger · 15-05-2020 07:28PM

The pictures would have to be copyright free, so who has or where would you get such pictures.
Also would Powerpoint do for now.

J.R. · 15-05-2020 07:50PM

Zxthinger wrote: »

The pictures would have to be copyright free, so who has or where would you get such pictures.

All the pictures here are free images & royalty free stock

https://pixabay.com/images/search/woodpigeon/

berettaman · 15-05-2020 08:25PM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On that point of writing.Anyone here a good graphics designer or can work with a computer to produce a post card sized picture that can be downloaded in a file here.Somthing eye catchinng with a quick&snappy message.Like No shooting...No food! or the like...Anyone up to that?

I am using the free an post postcards. Just got a bunch for nothing in post office. I will use them to full effect.!!

Grizzly 45 · 15-05-2020 08:53PM

Zxthinger wrote: »

The pictures would have to be copyright free, so who has or where would you get such pictures.
Also would Powerpoint do for now.

One of those pics,with somthing like " I can ruin a crop and a livelihood within hours thanks to the new derogation!" as a banner and "remove the derogation!" as a footer type layout. Or somthing along those lines.
On the back a short message like "Minister change the legislation!As we are an effective and free pest contol service to Irish agriculture at the peak growing season every year. It wasn't broke,why are you fixing this?" Sincerely.Space for your name and addy.

GRA made it all on an A4 sheet of paper,so you could print it off,fold it in half and mail it out.That way, clubs,organisations and others could print it enmasse for the mailing. The killer trick was to mail it all on one date. So Herr Seehofrers office was flooded by 4 mail men delivering a dozen plus sacks of these ...For a 3 days!.

Birdnuts · 15-05-2020 10:15PM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Done,both local and senator.

I think however folks we might need to do a written word campaign too.Emails are easily ignored. What would you think of a downloadable printable "postcard" campaign addressed to Mrs Madigan in her dept? Snail mail has to be deliverd no matter what.

The German Rifle Assoc did it last Nov about th mag ban,and it surprised the staff of the Ministers office on the sudden influx of mail that they had to deal with.Also,as this is going to a govt dept.You dont even have to stamp it.Its Freepost!

Either that or we have to blizzard the NPWS and dept email addys with our complaint.

Hopefully now that farming organisation have been alerted, farmers will too. My email yesterday on the matter was on behalf of my old gun club and local tillage farmers(near Naas).

Got him! · 16-05-2020 02:04AM

you know your onions! good man!

Zxthinger · 16-05-2020 12:19PM

Ok, I fired this together so have a look and a think but I wont be back till Wednesday as I'm doing exams

Zxthinger · 16-05-2020 12:22PM

I see a few errors but I'm changing anything until I get some feed back.

Also is this really the best forum to be airing ones linen.. This type of foundation work needs to be conducted and formulated off line and then later, distributed.

I think I'll fade the edges a bit more and save the ink..

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Derogation to the Wildlife Act 2020-21

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