Derogation to the Wildlife Act 2020-21

cookimonster · 12-05-2020 04:38PM #1

The Derogation for 20/21 is technically out.....

The Minister has signed a State-wide Declaration for the 12 month period from 1st May 2020 to 30th April 2021. A separate countrywide Declaration was signed in respect of air safety. PDF versions of these Declarations are also published on the website.

But if you read the article the information re dates and durations etc are last years and if you click the links they led you to last years paperwork..... hmmm!

Lets hope all is well and this is only a genuine publishing feck up!!!

Any one seen Chris Packham knocking around the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht recently.

Vegeta · 12-05-2020 05:46PM

Did the same thing happen last time, this is tickling the ol' memory a bit?

mcbain087 · 13-05-2020 11:53AM

I received a reply from npws last week after requesting info on EU Bird Directive and whilst not officially signed it was apparently the template for the new derogation. Main difference for me was no woodpigeon shooting between 1st June and 1st Sept 2020. Hopefully they will revert to last years dates.

mcbain087 · 13-05-2020 12:12PM

https://www.npws.ie/legislation/irish-law/eu-birds-directive-derogations
The new link is above and there has been changes to last year so be aware as certain licences may need to be applied for to control vermin or for crop protection.

cookimonster · 13-05-2020 02:43PM

So they have basically banned pigeon shooting over the summer months. For Fu#k Sake!!
So it will have to be sec42 I presume then for farmers controling pigeons at that time of the year!!!!

Any feed back on this outcome!!

mcbain087 · 13-05-2020 03:01PM

Yes cookiemonster, doesn't make any sense.
I am awaiting a further response from npws and the minister as they haven't signed the declaration so it technically isn't official.
There is a thread on hunting eire on Facebook about this at the moment and I will update when I receive info from npws.
It is unlikely that sec 42 will be issued in most cases as landowners must prove other methods were tried, then there is a visit to land involved, then someone is nominated to carry out pest / vermin control.
After all of this is carried out, the licence is issued for a set period. Most times it takes too long and opportunity is lost. I know of a farmer who started the process but soon gave up.

cookimonster · 13-05-2020 03:47PM

Thanks for that.
I've contacted the NARGC and a few of the farmers I shoot for.
Ridiculous rationale, heavily leaden grain crops, planting etc etc all happening in the latter half of the period. They can't call in breeding, nesting as a excuse as we are seeing more clutches throughout the year.

cookimonster · 13-05-2020 07:23PM

The offending piece and the signature....

mcbain087 · 13-05-2020 07:44PM

Oh dear, that's crap

J.R. · 13-05-2020 08:20PM

Does anybody have any idea why June, July & August were removed - stopping shooting?

Was there any reason given for it?

Was any group lobbying for it?

It doesn't make one ounce of sense - they are the three months where the most severe attacks usually take place.

mcbain087 · 13-05-2020 08:52PM

I did ask in my last mail to the minister if they had any links to how the decision was made and why it was for the most damaging period for crops!
There was a request for submissions and info to be sent before 10th Jan so maybe numbers were down or threat to crops was lessened, either way I think its ridiculous.
Feral pigeons are open all year and they left the threat to airspace open all year for woodpigeon???
If I get a reply, I'll update situation.

Zxthinger · 14-05-2020 12:30AM

Who the minister for this area now? Has the baton changed hands?

You need to request an FOI detailing the rational and cause behind this change to the standing practice.

I'm blaming Chris Packem.

Lads need to be out telling farmers that the outgoing clowns have apparently dealt a final blow to the sport on their way out the door.

Madiggan is out now. Wrote to her office nearly 4 times and got no response on any issue except for an acknowledgment of receipt.. very disappointing

This type of sudden change in rules with no reasons given needs to be stamped out. These fecks are meant to be representing us yet 'time and again' I seen them sneaking in their own agendas and private campaigns.
I'll meet her yet and I'll tell her off..

Zxthinger · 14-05-2020 12:41AM

Crows and other birds seem the same as other years.

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 12:41AM

The minister is Josepha Madigan as signed at bottom on the derogation.
For all corvid dates go on to the npws.ie site and look at the state wide declaration.

The pigeon man · 14-05-2020 02:13AM

Yes it seems like someone has their own agenda to push with the new derogation.

For air safety birds with an at risk conservation status can be shot are trapped at anytime.

But when it comes to a farmer protecting his livelihood, he can't shoot pigeons when they're causing the most damage to his crops.

Probably best apply for for a section 42 license now so you can continue to shoot.

cookimonster · 14-05-2020 10:08AM

You can't apply for a sec42, its the farmer that does that. You may assist them in the application but it is themselves that needs to follow up on it or deal with on site inspections and assessments.
You must also insure that all individuals who intend to shoot pigeons are named on the application. Only persons name on the Sec42 as issued by the Dept are allowed to shoot under thst licence.

As I said before an unwieldy and over complicated process for this particular instances. For deer and goose they ate straight forward but I could see this been messy unless the Dept give a standard brief for all grain farmers.

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 10:16AM

If anyone is interested in finding out why this has happened or to make inquiries about the current derogation licence, contact the following person who looks after the licensing unit.
Gerry.Leckey@chg.gov.ie

cookimonster · 14-05-2020 10:29AM

I received an email from the NARGC and they are looking into the change to the derogation.

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 11:02AM

This is one of the exclusions on this years derogation as listed on the NPWS.ie website.

"The exclusion of the Wood Pigeon from the State-wide Declaration in respect of one criteria (the prevention of damage to arable crops) for the period 1 June to 31 August 2020."

It would be good to get a definitive answer before end of May.

The pigeon man · 14-05-2020 12:44PM

cookimonster wrote: »

You can't apply for a sec42, its the farmer that does that. You may assist them in the application but it is themselves that needs to follow up on it or deal with on site inspections and assessments.
You must also insure that all individuals who intend to shoot pigeons are named on the application. Only persons name on the Sec42 as issued by the Dept are allowed to shoot under thst licence.

As I said before an unwieldy and over complicated process for this particular instances. For deer and goose they ate straight forward but I could see this been messy unless the Dept give a standard brief for all grain farmers.

Yes I agree it takes a bit of effort to apply for a section 42. Anyone duly authorised by the landowner can apply for the permission on their behalf. Yes you must list nominated stalkers but that's not very hard.

Also I know the permission can be issued without an onsite visit. Photographing evidence sufficed for me in the past.

cookimonster · 14-05-2020 01:06PM

mcbain087 wrote: »

This is one of the exclusions on this years derogation as listed on the NPWS.ie website.

"The exclusion of the Wood Pigeon from the State-wide Declaration in respect of one criteria (the prevention of damage to arable crops) for the period 1 June to 31 August 2020."

It would be good to get a definitive answer before end of May.

There's no clarification, it is what it is no shooting wood pigeon for crop protection over those months.

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 02:14PM

It would be nice to see their reasoning for the decision.
If there were any reports or statistics to show a decline or less of a threat, I personally would be interested in reading them.
Anyway cant see it being changed but it sets a precedent for the future and the effect on arable farming, if drastic changes can be made without justifiable reason then crop protection, hunting and shooting in general are under pressure and threatened.

Zxthinger · 14-05-2020 02:23PM

The only way to deal with government is to bog them down at there own game.. get you TD to hound her dept, wade in an request an FOI detailing all corrispondance relating to the decision then send another FOI later asking fir the minutes if all meeting detailed in the FOI
WRITE DIRECTLY and demand answers.
Once the PC troops start to feel the burn the word will pass up the ranks.
If there's no back lash or outcry then they win. I'm doing exams at the min but as soon as I'm finished she going hear from me, my local Tds are all going know me.
Could local councillors bring questions to the minister? I suppose so! The thing is this.. these depts have a policy of not responding to general citizens but they you can bet that they respond sharply to other government personnel daily lively..
The lines are drawn.. plague the backsides off them.. keep asking for the same data in different ways through different channels and never let up. At you TD to write to the minister as they have to write back, then get the same TD to email her. These TD want to get yer vote so they'll ask the questions to show you that they care but really they don't give a rats arse about you. The ring is that the ministers staff can't ignore official people with proper questions.

Birdnuts · 14-05-2020 02:49PM

mcbain087 wrote: »

If anyone is interested in finding out why this has happened or to make inquiries about the current derogation licence, contact the following person who looks after the licensing unit.
Gerry.Leckey@chg.gov.ie

Thanx for that - I had intended to fire off a few emails today to the NPWS and the minister on this matter(and others!!). At a time when the NPWS appear to be unwilling or unable to deal with serious wildlife crimes in certain parts of the country, for them to be coming out with this nonsense in terms of a totally unjustified hindrance to pigeon control at peak harvesting times is bizarre and illogical in the extreme. I will share with folks here any relevant response I get(assuming I get one!!)

Zxthinger · 14-05-2020 03:32PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thanx for that - I had intended to fire off a few emails today to the NPWS and the minister on this matter(and others!!). At a time when the NPWS appear to be unwilling or unable to deal with serious wildlife crimes in certain parts of the country, for them to be coming out with this nonsense in terms of a totally unjustified hindrance to pigeon control at peak harvesting times is bizarre and illogical in the extreme. I will share with folks here any relevant response I get(assuming I get one!!)

Very good point... ultimately they're expect firearms owners to go with the rules.
So they need to be swapped with that duty. Every farmer in the land needs to apply for a section 42. Hunters need to help farmers and do the paper work form them. Every fellow that has ever asked you to shoot over his fields needs to be inside..

mcbain087 · 14-05-2020 05:36PM

This is the reply from NPWS ;

Further to your email below to John Fitzgerald, the new signed Declaration is now published on the NPWS website – link below. The woodpigeon is included on the Declaration to prevent damage to crops except for the June to August period as our advice is that there is limited evidence to suggest that woodpigeon cause serious damage to crops during the summer period. Should woodpigeon be seen to cause damage to crops during this period, landowners can apply for Section 42 permits under the Wildlife Acts.
Regards
Gerry

SureHowBad · 14-05-2020 06:47PM

mcbain087 wrote: »

This is the reply from NPWS ;

Further to your email below to John Fitzgerald, the new signed Declaration is now published on the NPWS website – link below. The woodpigeon is included on the Declaration to prevent damage to crops except for the June to August period as our advice is that there is limited evidence to suggest that woodpigeon cause serious damage to crops during the summer period. Should woodpigeon be seen to cause damage to crops during this period, landowners can apply for Section 42 permits under the Wildlife Acts.
Regards
Gerry

That's bull**** of the highest order..... where is the evidence to suddenly support the change. The vast majority of pigeon control is done in the months of July and August as the winter crops lodge before harvesting.

Chiparus · 14-05-2020 06:50PM

A lot of French shooters come over in August to shoot pigeons down my area.

slipperyox · 14-05-2020 07:01PM

Who was the adviser?
What research was done to come to the conclusion?
Why was this years decision different to last years?

someone made a typo I'd say, and afraid to admit it:)

cookimonster · 14-05-2020 07:04PM

This smacks of desk top studies with individuals not even crossing a farm gate.

Have these people never walked a field of grain during theses months where hundreds of birds will lift out tram lines, laid crop etc, etc. Good God how do they expect a sec42 to be applied for, processed and acted up in double quick time to prevent birds attacking a crop that has been laid flat due to heavy rainfall, stormy conditions.

Why are most of us not shooting at this stage of the growth?, why?, because there's no real threat in another month or two then we will get the calls.

This beggers belief.

cookimonster · 14-05-2020 07:08PM

Chiparus wrote: »

A lot of French shooters come over in August to shoot pigeons down my area.

Bad enough trying to figure out Covid19 restrictions this will certainly slam the door in thier faces....

... this has certainly knocked the wind out of my sails. For the past serveral years I plan work and organise leave around August to shoot the grey ballerinas of the sky.

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Derogation to the Wildlife Act 2020-21

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