United States of Europe...is it time?

ELM327 · 01-04-2020 9:19am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The USA is one country and a proud and strong one. It has common language, finance, tradition, culture and outlook across all it's states. Try telling an American their country should not be a country. No matter Dem or Republican they rally around their country and their flag like no other. They are fiercely proud of America and what it stands for.

Europe does not and never will have that. That's the reality.

You can't say it "never will" but you're right it doesnt right now.

The US is not a country it is a federalized union of states. Subtle difference but an important one. Look at the way taxation is handled. Government is on three levels too. States rights vs Federal governance is a constant issue.

If you ask a Texan about their country, vs a yankee from NYC, vs a lib from California, vs a redneck from Georgia/Alabama, you will get widely divergent answers.

01-04-2020 9:39am

And comments about Ireland leaving? Right because all those companies came here for the heck of it.

Small island with small density population?
1: English speaking
2: Educated population
3: Tax system

ALL pale to nothing Vs open trading with the EU

01-04-2020 9:43am

BUT...

calling for a Federal Europe is ignoring the elephant size countries. You would need to see the massive countries broken into their constituent states for smaller countries to feel comfortable in not being swamped.

That will never happen.

ELM327 · 01-04-2020 9:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

And comments about Ireland leaving? Right because all those companies came here for the heck of it.

Small island with small density population?
1: English speaking
2: Educated population
3: Tax system

ALL pale to nothing Vs open trading with the EU

Agree. The above is the nonsense peddled by MNC to avoid saying they are here #1 for tax and eu status.
The only fools are those who believe the lies!

Deleted User wrote: »

BUT...

calling for a Federal Europe is ignoring the elephant size countries. You would need to see the massive countries broken into their constituent states for smaller countries to feel comfortable in not being swamped.

That will never happen.

cough
Electoral college

CtevenSrowder · 01-04-2020 9:54am

ELM327 wrote: »

You can't say it "never will" but you're right it doesnt right now.

The US is not a country it is a federalized union of states. Subtle difference but an important one. Look at the way taxation is handled. Government is on three levels too. States rights vs Federal governance is a constant issue.

If you ask a Texan about their country, vs a yankee from NYC, vs a lib from California, vs a redneck from Georgia/Alabama, you will get widely divergent answers.

You are right but no doubt the one thing they'll all have in common is their love of the American flag, their military and "freedom". Europe doesn't have these somewhat abstract concepts to bind us together in a federilization of our countries. I don't want an EU military, don't care about the EU flag and rarely bang on about 'freedom".

ELM327 · 01-04-2020 9:57am

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You are right but no doubt the one thing they'll all have in common is their love of the American flag, their military and "freedom". Europe doesn't have these somewhat abstract concepts to bind us together in a federilization of our countries. I don't want an EU military, don't care about the EU flag and rarely bang on about 'freedom".

Failing a proper union, the next step below is a loose confederacy of states.
We're actually not too far away from it in the eurozone countries already.

I do see it going to a united states of europe, or failing altogether, in the next 10 years.

01-04-2020 10:00am

ELM327 wrote: »

cough
Electoral college

How will the college work for MEPs though? Give smaller countries vastly more MEPs than larger, per person?
Then the big countries will not agree to this.

Both aspects will be blocked by the other side of the debate.

CtevenSrowder · 01-04-2020 10:09am

ELM327 wrote: »

Failing a proper union, the next step below is a loose confederacy of states.
We're actually not too far away from it in the eurozone countries already.

I do see it going to a united states of europe, or failing altogether, in the next 10 years.

Not too far away from it against the wishes of many, and imo, the majority. People have been suggesting the failure of the EU since forever. During the last crisis in 08 loads of ppl were posting here that the EU would fail, then when Greece went to shot the EU would fail, the corona virus is the new one.

The fact is in 10 years its highly probable the EU will still be here, and be more or less the exact same as it is now.

CrankyHaus · 01-04-2020 10:14am

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You are right but no doubt the one thing they'll all have in common is their love of the American flag, their military and "freedom". Europe doesn't have these somewhat abstract concepts to bind us together in a federilization of our countries. I don't want an EU military, don't care about the EU flag and rarely bang on about 'freedom".

In the US most states were founded after the country was, so they were American from the outset. In Europe most countries have a very long history and a unique language and cultural identity.

In any case the US still had to fight an extremely bloody civil war to hold itself together.

The idea that we should form a United States of Europe because we aren't fit to govern ourselves is based on a moronic lack of historical knowledge. At independence we were the poorest, most backward and underdeveloped part of the UK, with minimal industry. Since then we've developed greatly and outstripped most other parts of the UK, like NI, Scotland, Wales and maybe even the North of England, which would never have happened without independence. Similarly we had major famines in every century of British rule of this island and none in the century when we ran our own affairs.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-04-2020 11:44am

biko wrote: »

Hell no Guy Verhofstadt, the EU experiment have failed.
I don't know about you guys but I like my politicians elected and accountable to their electorate.

And here's a perfect example of anti-EU hypocrisy in one short post.

Express horror at the concept of a 'superstate'
Then complain there aren't EU-wide 'federal' elections... as if the EU was a state :rolleyes:

Very reminiscent of the eejits who say "well I didn't vote for Kenny/Varadkar/whoever"
No, unless you live in their constituency. But you did get to vote for the guys who voted to appoint them.
An EU-wide political polity doesn't exist, therefore electing candidates on an EU-wide basis cannot work. The only thing that could make it a possibility would be a... federal superstate.

Same morally bankrupt tactics we've seen across the water for years, like the "Schrodinger's immigrant" who is here to simultaneously take ur jobs and scam ur welfare, "Schrodinger's EU" is simultaneously both a useless and pointless failure, and an evil rapacious beast dictating our every action. :rolleyes:

Junkyard Tom · 01-04-2020 12:51pm

It's as if a bunch of Brexiters heard 'Ode to Joy' and came rushing to the thread to spout British tabloid bollocks about the EU. The EU enhances our sovereignty and allowed us to push back against Whitehall during the Brexit mess. We need better EU strategic consolidation when it comes to manufacturing important stuff like medical devices and defence equipment.

EU countries are depending on China for PPE for this pandemic and we're spending a fortune on US defence equipment. We could be doing with Federal Eurobonds to jump-start the European economy and help out Italy, Spain, Greece, and ourselves.

ArchXStanton · 01-04-2020 12:51pm

Does anyone actually think we'll get a say in this united States of Europe? We know what happens anyway when you vote against the EU, you either have to vote again or just get outright ignored, to me that's a glaring problem with the EU, I think the people of any country have the right to decide their future, not some bureaucrats in Brussels or even our own national politicians.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-04-2020 1:38pm

ELM327 wrote: »

You can't say it "never will" but you're right it doesnt right now.

The US is not a country it is a federalized union of states. S

It's a country, a nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Not hard to understand.

It's not a "debate".

Hotblack Desiato · 01-04-2020 4:50pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Does anyone actually think we'll get a say in this united States of Europe? We know what happens anyway when you vote against the EU, you either have to vote again or just get outright ignored, to me that's a glaring problem with the EU, I think the people of any country have the right to decide their future, not some bureaucrats in Brussels or even our own national politicians.

Just as well we have to have a referendum before even the smallest treaty change, then, isn't it?

And no, we were not made to vote again - that's an outright lie

And no, our concerns were not ignored - that's another outright lie.

Thanks for playing.

ArchXStanton · 01-04-2020 5:13pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Just as well we have to have a referendum before even the smallest treaty change, then, isn't it?

And no, we were not made to vote again - that's an outright lie

And no, our concerns were not ignored - that's another outright lie.

Thanks for playing.

"the Irish must vote again!" - Sarkozy....

Most countries ratify treaties, except for Ireland

I'm talking about the French and Dutch voters who had their referendums on an EU constitution ignored and all subsequent referendums in other countries were cancelled when they seen the French and Dutch results

Hotblack Desiato · 01-04-2020 7:13pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

"the Irish must vote again!" - Sarkozy....

Most countries ratify treaties, except for Ireland

I'm talking about the French and Dutch voters who had their referendums on an EU constitution ignored and all subsequent referendums in other countries were cancelled when they seen the French and Dutch results

Sarkozy was talking through his hoop, neither he nor anyone else could force us to do anything

So what. That's a matter for them

Cancelled because the constitution was dead

Got any more?

Fred Cryton · 01-04-2020 7:20pm

No, a USE would simply mean we Irish taxpayers would be on the hook for Greek, Italian and Spanish debt and pensions. No wonder those Med countries are looking for more "solidarity" from Europe. They can't manage their own affairs so are looking for handouts.

I like things as they are. A very loose confederation with only low fiscal transfers between states, focused on infrastructure and farming only.

Ireland should join NATO though. We are practically a 51st state of the US at this point.

8-10 · 01-04-2020 7:29pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Ireland should join NATO though. We are practically a 51st state of the US at this point.

Using the actual definitions of the First World/Second World/Third World, which originally meant allegiences during the war but more recently means aligned to NATO v Eastern Bloc v neither....Ireland is technically a Third World Country

It's only through general use that Third World is taken to mean poorer countries, it's actually intended to include countries like Ireland who are not NATO members or Russian allied.

ArchXStanton · 01-04-2020 7:30pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Sarkozy was talking through his hoop, neither he nor anyone else could force us to do anything

So what. That's a matter for them

Cancelled because the constitution was dead

Got any more?

Sarkozy was on a plane to Dublin within a week...

The constitution was brought in through the backdoor...

Hotshot..

NSAman · 02-04-2020 4:30am

I am amazed that no one has started a thread on the EU and the total inaction from it in relation to the current pandemic.

I see Italians are burning the European Flag, angry at the lack of aid and inability of the EU to organise a rescue package on a recent 6-hour meeting by video, leaving it up to individual members to come up with plans in 14 days.

http://https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-eu-leaders-fail-to-agree-on-common-financial-response-during-virtual-summit

if nothing is done and Germany’s resistance comes more to the fore, will this have ramifications for the EU in the future USE??

tuxy · 02-04-2020 4:34am

NSAman wrote: »

I am amazed that no one has started a thread on the EU and the total inaction from it in relation to the current pandemic.

I see Italians are burning the European Flag, angry at the lack of aid and inability of the EU to organise a rescue package on a recent 6-hour meeting by video, leaving it up to individual members to come up with plans in 14 days.

http://https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-eu-leaders-fail-to-agree-on-common-financial-response-during-virtual-summit

if nothing is done and Germany’s resistance comes more to the fore, will this have ramifications for the EU in the future USE??

Even the U.S has left decisions to each individual state.
The EU has far less power than that because the member states still wanted control over important decisions.

NSAman · 02-04-2020 4:38am

tuxy wrote: »

Even the U.S has left decisions to each individual state.
The EU has far less power than that because the member states still wanted control over important decisions.

That is true, the US has to be governed by each state, also Federal funds have been implemented to individuals, small business (through grants) and loans to large corporations (which I disagree with).

The EU has done little though, except make sweeping statements. It is not inspiring in its “leadership” IMHO.

tuxy · 02-04-2020 4:49am

Every country in the EU has already done everything they can to get medical supplies and prepare to deal with this.
Maybe the EU were not comfortable with demanding one countries in the EU gives resources and supplies to another.
While I believe the EU as a whole is beneficial, in these situations I think it works better if we are ruled by our elected leaders.

NSAman · 02-04-2020 4:54am

tuxy wrote: »

Every country in the EU has already done everything they can to get medical supplies and prepare to deal with this.
Maybe the EU were not comfortable with demanding one countries in the EU gives resources and supplies to another.
While I believe the EU as a whole is beneficial, in these situations I think it works better if we are ruled by our elected leaders.

Absolutely agree!

But (there is always a but) Where are the EU finance ministers in organising funding relief and a concerted effort to save the European economy in all of this?

I am seeing resentment and discontent in both France and Italy in all of this.

It doesn’t inspire confidence in some, that the EU has basically been silent in this. A huge behemoth which has (in appearance) done little apart from late pronouncements?

tuxy · 02-04-2020 5:03am

NSAman wrote: »

But (there is always a but) Where are the EU finance ministers in organising funding relief and a concerted effort to save the European economy in all of this?

Is this possible while we still have no idea how much this will cost?
If they can come up with a good financial plan after this I think they will be doing their job well, if not I will be highly critical.

BonnieSituation · 02-04-2020 2:57pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, a USE would simply mean we Irish taxpayers would be on the hook for Greek, Italian and Spanish debt and pensions. No wonder those Med countries are looking for more "solidarity" from Europe. They can't manage their own affairs so are looking for handouts.

You hate being on the hook for Darndale as it is. Fiscal transfers of any kind are distasteful to you.

I like things as they are. A very loose confederation with only low fiscal transfers between states, focused on infrastructure and farming only.

Ireland should join NATO though. We are practically a 51st state of the US at this point.

We really aren't.

BonnieSituation · 02-04-2020 2:59pm

NSAman wrote: »

Absolutely agree!

But (there is always a but) Where are the EU finance ministers in organising funding relief and a concerted effort to save the European economy in all of this?

I am seeing resentment and discontent in both France and Italy in all of this.

It doesn’t inspire confidence in some, that the EU has basically been silent in this. A huge behemoth which has (in appearance) done little apart from late pronouncements?

What competencies has the EU got that it has not already utilised in this crisis?

CrankyHaus · 02-04-2020 3:07pm

NSAman wrote: »

That is true, the US has to be governed by each state, also Federal funds have been implemented to individuals, small business (through grants) and loans to large corporations (which I disagree with).

The EU has done little though, except make sweeping statements. It is not inspiring in its “leadership” IMHO.

Within its relatively limited powers it's done a fair bit, mostly in removing restrictions on member states and others to deal with the crisis. EU fiscal rules were thrown out the window with virtually no debate to allow emergency measures by member states; use it or lose it rules on airline slots were suspended to help prevent unnecessary travel from spreading the virus, and so on. Comparisons with the US Federal Reserve are very misleading.

Issuing Eurobonds, whether by a different name or not, is very much on the table for the first time in years. This is significant.

tuxy · 02-04-2020 3:08pm

is this a situation where some who think the EU have too much power are complaining the EU has not done enough because they do not have enough power?

completedit · 02-04-2020 3:11pm

Europes aim was never to just be a trading bloc. The original.plan was a social and culturally integrated Europe. The trading was just the pathway to later integration.

Whatever your view on this, saying that Europe has evolved to become something it didn't plan to be is just wrong.

Only way EU can work is by more Europe. In its current form, it's broken and largely pointless.

United States of Europe...is it time?

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