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New Dail / New Taoiseach

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    #1142
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Runaways wrote: »
    If only we had a spare €13 billion lying around that we won’t take even though it’s owed

    I had thought at this stage that everyone understood that the Apple Money is NOT OURS.

    The money is (potentially) owed to the countries where the sales took place , not to Ireland.

    If the courts eventually decide that Apple do indeed owe these taxes , then only a tiny % of the total amount would actually be due to Ireland. 99% of the money would be owed to other countries all around the world.


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    #1143
    Field east
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Field east


    landofthetree wrote: »
    Another election is certain later in the year if we are back to austerity.

    Its only right that the parties all put forward new manifestos if the crisis continues for months.

    SF will have to adjust their plans to spend 25billion more per year by 2025.

    The last downturn in the national exchequer has lead to a lot of individuals / families losing their homes. This figure is going to grow quiet significantly because of people losing their jobs due to the impact of the virus on the economy. We could be in this situation for a year or more before the economy is back to some kind of a break even position.

    Since SF’s top priority is the provision of housing for those that cannot afford such up to now I would be interested to know how many more houses does it plan to build over the next five years if it gets into government in addition to the 100,000 - in response to those individuals/ families that will not be able to pay their rents/mortgages due to losing their jobs over the virus


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    #1144
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    dixiefly wrote: »
    I have to say as a person who does not follow a huge amount of politics that I am really surprised (and disappointed) at the showing of the Labour Party in the polls.

    Labour got an unfair amount of the blame for the bad parts of their government but very litte of the credit for what went right.

    What sparked this thought was that someone said to me that they would vote Labour but they had no chance. To me I would far rather Labour than Sinn Fein as I feel they have a record of delivering a level of change - but one that is affordable.

    Is it Brendan Howlin as a leader or did they just lose so many T.D.'s that they have no traction anymore?
    There are a lot of delusional people out there who think we could have avoided any cutbacks . Most of our debt is from day to day stuff not bank debt. Bank debt made up about 40 billion of the 200 billion we now owe. The Trokia did over do the austerity but only a moron would say we could have avoided no cutbacks
    The labour party made Sure that there was more of a balance between tax increases and Publix expenditure cuts.
    It failed however to do anything radical in the health service. There should have been mandatory redundancies across the public sector where needed. Emphasis where needed
    I didn't vote for labour in 2016 because of the bull**** they started peddling in education. It's noteworthy that ex minister Quinn is now on the board of a private education company and educated his kids in black rock college


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    #1145
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    landofthetree wrote: »
    Another election is certain later in the year if we are back to austerity.

    Its only right that the parties all put forward new manifestos if the crisis continues for months.

    SF will have to adjust their plans to spend 25billion more per year by 2025    .


    Where on earth did you get the 25 Billion figure?

    SF did not plan on spending anything close to that, even over a 5 year period.


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    #1146
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    I had thought at this stage that everyone understood that the Apple Money is NOT OURS.

    The money is (potentially) owed to the countries where the sales took place , not to Ireland.

    If the courts eventually decide that Apple do indeed owe these taxes , then only a tiny % of the total amount would actually be due to Ireland. 99% of the money would be owed to other countries all around the world.

    Do you know how much tax Facebook pays here? Or google?


    (They’re not exactly here for the weather )


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    #1147
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    All the regulars complaining about anyone voting for SF are lifelong dole scroungers have gone strangely quiet.

    Odd that.


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    #1148
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    There are a lot of delusional people out there who think we could have avoided any cutbacks . Most of our debt is from day to day stuff not bank debt. Bank debt made up about 40 billion of the 200 billion we now owe. The Trokia did over do the austerity but only a moron would say we could have avoided no cutbacks
    The labour party made Sure that there was more of a balance between tax increases and Publix expenditure cuts.
    It failed however to do anything radical in the health service. There should have been mandatory redundancies across the public sector where needed. Emphasis where needed
    I didn't vote for labour in 2016 because of the bull**** they started peddling in education. It's noteworthy that ex minister Quinn is now on the board of a private education company and educated his kids in black rock college

    The problem is the labour party actually stands for nothing now. It has no identity, nor does it have a manifesto aimed to garner support from its traditional supporters.

    Not only did they not bring in any measures for their core voters but they actually enthusiastically enabled some legislation and measures that are still hurting till this day. Pay cuts for civil servants might have sounded like a good temporary measure in the aftermath of the crash, but Labour made no effort whatsoever to reverse those measures once austerity was over and the economy had significantly recovered. A dual wage system where new teachers earn significantly less than existing teachers yet another measure brought in by a Labour minister. A ban on recruitment in the Gardai and the health service that is now hurting the country, yet again supported by Labour but they made no effort to reverse those decisions once the economy showed significant signs of recovery.

    No party throws away the support and trust of their core voters, but that's exactly what Labour did, so why should anyone be surprised that they have been punished severely for it.


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    #1149
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    efanton wrote: »
    The problem is the labour party actually stands for nothing now. It has no identity, nor does it have a manifesto aimed to garner support from its traditional supporters.

    Not only did they not bring in any measures for their core voters but they actually enthusiastically enabled some legislation and measures that are still hurting till this day. Pay cuts for civil servants might have sounded like a good temporary measure in the aftermath of the crash, but Labour made no effort whatsoever to reverse those measures once austerity was over and the economy had significantly recovered. A dual wage system where new teachers earn significantly less than existing teachers yet another measure brought in by a Labour minister. A ban on recruitment in the Gardai and the health service that is now hurting the country, yet again supported by Labour but they made no effort to reverse those decisions once the economy showed significant signs of recovery.

    No party throws away the support and trust of their core voters, but that's exactly what Labour did, so why should anyone be surprised that they have been punished severely for it.


    The sectional interests of the civil service, teachers, guards and health workers are not co-terminous with the interests of the country. Quite the reverse in fact. The more they gouge from the public purse the less is available for everyone else. The cuts to their wages etc should have been permanent, not merely a temporary measure. [In Ireland state workers earn 50% more than private sector; in the UK both are on a par.]

    Labour Party insisted that there were to be no cuts to core payments for SW welfare recipients and used up their political capital for this measure. That measure also was not in the national interest.
    By sustaining current spending the capital budget was eviscerated so that from 2010 to 2017 all the capital projects which could have sustained the building industry, while providing cheap infrastructure for the State, were left on the shelf.


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    #1150
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Good loser wrote: »
    The sectional interests of the civil service, teachers, guards and health workers are not co-terminous with the interests of the country. Quite the reverse in fact. The more they gouge from the public purse the less is available for everyone else. The cuts to their wages etc should have been permanent, not merely a temporary measure. [In Ireland state workers earn 50% more than private sector; in the UK both are on a par.]

    Labour Party insisted that there were to be no cuts to core payments for SW welfare recipients and used up their political capital for this measure. That measure also was not in the national interest.
    By sustaining current spending the capital budget was eviscerated so that from 2010 to 2017 all the capital projects which could have sustained the building industry, while providing cheap infrastructure for the State, were left on the shelf.

    You are obviously living in a different country.

    The building industry has been doing very nicely thank you very much.
    Lots of large developers sitting on land that could be developed but they refuse to do so because they know a house shortage drives up their profits.

    Cheap infrastructure for the state? Every infrastructure project in the last 10 years has been way over budget.

    Most civil servants spend the majority, if not all, their wage packet. One way or another a very large portion of that pay makes its way back to the government via the various forms of taxation.

    Trying to compare wages here to those in the UK is not a fair comparison.
    In most parts of the UK the cost of living is far lower for civil servants than it is here.


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    #1151
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    efanton wrote: »
    You are obviously living in a different country.

    The building industry has been doing very nicely thank you very much.
    Lots of large developers sitting on land that could be developed but they refuse to do so because they know a house shortage drives up their profits.

    Cheap infrastructure for the state? Every infrastructure project in the last 10 years has been way over budget.

    Most civil servants spend the majority, if not all, their wage packet. One way or another a very large portion of that pay makes its way back to the government via the various forms of taxation.

    Trying to compare wages here to those in the UK is not a fair comparison.
    In most parts of the UK the cost of living is far lower for civil servants than it is here.

    I don't think you understood what he said there.

    The likes of Dart Underground and Metro North gathered dust while the construction industry withered away.

    Sure, of late it is doing well building student accommodation and hotels, but they aren't "capital projects".

    ---

    Most parts of the UK are post-industrial crap holes. Of course cost of living is lower there.


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    #1152
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    efanton wrote: »
    You are obviously living in a different country.

    The building industry has been doing very nicely thank you very much.
    Lots of large developers sitting on land that could be developed but they refuse to do so because they know a house shortage drives up their profits.

    Cheap infrastructure for the state? Every infrastructure project in the last 10 years has been way over budget.

    Most civil servants spend the majority, if not all, their wage packet. One way or another a very large portion of that pay makes its way back to the government via the various forms of taxation.

    Trying to compare wages here to those in the UK is not a fair comparison.
     In most parts of the UK the cost of living is far lower for civil servants than it is here.


    It's the ratios that matter; the cost of living does not come into it.
    In the recession 50/80,000 building workers lost their jobs out of total job losses of 200,000 - all from the private sector. Putting it another way they lost 100% of their wages - not 10%. Was that not a greater injustice?

    If the Govt gave money to the building industry/workers they too would have spent their money in the economy.


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    #1153
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    Good loser wrote: »
    It's the ratios that matter; the cost of living does not come into it.
    In the recession 50/80,000 building workers lost their jobs out of total job losses of 200,000 - all from the private sector. Putting it another way they lost 100% of their wages - not 10%. Was that not a greater injustice?

    If the Govt gave money to the building industry/workers they too would have spent their money in the economy.

    No. Cos they’re mostly from Eastern Europe. I work on sites. We’re overrun and for far cheaper and no lads from here coming through learning the trades. And I don’t say that in the way you might think through boards goggles. It’s that boss and that boss cutting corners and saving quids as ever. as usual
    And forget about apprenticeships or even fathers and sons.
    You have the latvian or Estonian kid doing it now.


    They’re getting hired now as they’re cheaper even though they’re often unskilled and shouldn’t be onsite but intreo gave them a one day course and voila they have a safe pass. Yay

    Screwed up part is it balances out and gets done.


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    #1154
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Good loser wrote: »
    It's the ratios that matter; the cost of living does not come into it.
    In the recession 50/80,000 building workers lost their jobs out of total job losses of 200,000 - all from the private sector. Putting it another way they lost 100% of their wages - not 10%. Was that not a greater injustice?

    If the Govt gave money to the building industry/workers they too would have spent their money in the economy.

    So the government are going to directly employ construction workers now?

    During the recession thousand more lost their jobs, so whats your point. We should subsidise the construction industry but forget about everyone else?

    And yes the cost of living DOES matter. If you are asking people to work and all they achieve after a months work is to just barely pay for their monthly expenses why would anyone want to work and do a good job.

    If you think the civil service are getting fantastic pay why have you not applied yourself? Surely that's the solution to your problem.


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    #1155
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    efanton wrote: »
    So the government are going to directly employ construction workers now?

    During the recession thousand more lost their jobs, so whats your point. We should subsidise the construction industry but forget about everyone else?

    And yes the cost of living DOES matter. If you are asking people to work and all they achieve after a months work is to just barely pay for their monthly expenses why would anyone want to work and do a good job.

    If you think the civil service are getting fantastic pay why have you not applied yourself? Surely that's the solution to your problem.

    Obviously you completely misunderstand the points I'm making.
    As proved by your last speculative point; I worked in the civil service for 36 years. I know it from the inside out.
    By your 'logic' that alone validates all the points I've made!


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    #1156
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Good loser wrote: »
    Obviously you completely misunderstand the points I'm making.
    As proved by your last speculative point; I worked in the civil service for 36 years. I know it from the inside out.
    By your 'logic' that alone validates all the points I've made!

    I obviously have missed your point.

    What point were you trying to make?


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    #1157
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,236 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Bowie wrote: »
    I'd like to think the brains behind it are not Leo, Coveney, Paschal and Harris.

    So the brains behind what is happening in the US and the UK is not Donald's and Borris's. As Harry Truman said the ''buck stops here''. All politician's get advice they make the.political decision's. It is interesting that Eamon Ryan made a point that due to present crisis that even if a new Government is formed it was his opinion that Leo, Simon H and Paschal should stay in place for the duration of the crisis. Someone else added Simon Covney.

    There performance is way ahead of what is happening in most countries. While many may fault them the top table of the present Government fared well with Brexit and are doing very well at present. You can have people with all the brains in the world but unless you have a capable and coherent leadership you might as well flush it down the drain.

    Will they make mistakes yes but as long as they do not keep repeating them they will be effective.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #1158
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    The fecking Greens chickening out of Government!


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    #1159
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    The fecking Greens chickening out of Government!

    After last time can you blame them?

    They got their balls burned last time taxing all fvck on us.

    I’m sure blanch can give us a breakdown


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    #1160
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,135 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    None of the election promises can be met now surely. The abolition of the Property Tax etc. All gone.


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    #1161
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,171 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Property Tax was never going to be abolished. What's totally strange is that it's left leaning parties in this country have been advocating it.


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    #1162
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Water John wrote: »
    Property Tax was never going to be abolished. What's totally strange is that it's left leaning parties in this country have been advocating it.

    I think the 'left leaning' parties are actually populist parties chasing any issue that might win the votes of the gullible.

    The LPT is at too low a level at 0.18%, and should be at about 1% of value. Now one can argue about how it is assessed, e.g. perhaps a site value might be better, and perhaps all building sites should be included, but the tax base needs broadening so that the PAYE workers are not paying the largest share of tax.

    The Covid 19 is burning up all our hard won recovery. Hopefully, it is only a temporary blip.


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    #1163
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,135 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I think the 'left leaning' parties are actually populist parties chasing any issue that might win the votes of the gullible.

    The LPT is at too low a level at 0.18%, and should be at about 1% of value. Now one can argue about how it is assessed, e.g. perhaps a site value might be better, and perhaps all building sites should be included, but the tax base needs broadening so that the PAYE workers are not paying the largest share of tax.

    The Covid 19 is burning up all our hard won recovery. Hopefully, it is only a temporary blip.

    The two right leaving parties also had ridiculous promises. Are they considered populist?


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    #1164
    Scoondal
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Scoondal


    Ireland needs to be like other normal E.U. countries.
    We need a proper health system and a proper justice system.
    Invest in new hospitals and good staff contracts.
    Flood the streets with a no nonsense police force like every other E.U. country.
    No more Gardai saying " Ah now Jim, ye can't be smashing windows and sellin drugs, can ye just go on away home. Good man".


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    #1165
    Panda Killa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭Panda Killa


    Does anyone else remember that episode of Killinaskully ?


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    #1166
    Scoondal
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Scoondal


    Panda Killa wrote: »
    Does anyone else remember that episode of Killinaskully ?

    Off Topic.


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    #1167
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The two right leaving parties also had ridiculous promises. Are they considered populist?

    Yes of course they are. Parish pump is where it is at.

    But the left leaning ones are in favour of policies that are not left leaning but could be popular with their target audience. That is trying to get it both ways.


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    #1168
    Nevin Parsnipp
    Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭Nevin Parsnipp


    Water John wrote: »
    Property Tax was never going to be abolished. What's totally strange is that it's left leaning parties in this country have been advocating it.

    Local Authoritiy houses do not have to pay it.....only the hard working young folk who provide their own housing.

    Not strange at all really .......


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    #1169
    tobsey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The two right leaving parties also had ridiculous promises. Are they considered populist?

    SF went massively further in their promises for extra public spending. €25bn over five years while also cutting taxes. Without the pandemic or any even minor blip it was completely unsustainable. Other parties budgeted on the basis of the economy to continue to grow so they did promise extras, but not near as much.


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    #1170
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Can anyone tell me how the nuts and bolts of a "National Unity Government" as demanded by the greens would work?

    Say the big 3 +SD +Labour +Greens all held hands and carved out a big group between them. I don't see independents being involved or too influential since there'd be an overwhelming majority in place without them,so nobody to hold to ransom. Also PBPAAA etc. wouldn't join, just because.

    Who makes the decisions? Do the decisions go to a vote between the parties involved, and get divided along party lines?

    Say one party wants the Covid-19 benefit increased to €600 a week Or one party wants a 10 year rent freeze, or one party wants a Chinese style prefab concrete hospital thrown up in Athlone. Other parties will not agree to these measures, so what happens the "unity" government?

    They might be united against the pandemic crisis, but they would be in no way united in their policies and actions, which is the purpose of having a stable government.


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    #1171
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me how the nuts and bolts of a "National Unity Government" as demanded by the greens would work?

    Say the big 3 +SD +Labour +Greens all held hands and carved out a big group between them. I don't see independents being involved or too influential since there'd be an overwhelming majority in place without them,so nobody to hold to ransom. Also PBPAAA etc. wouldn't join, just because.

    Who makes the decisions? Do the decisions go to a vote between the parties involved, and get divided along party lines?

    Say one party wants the Covid-19 benefit increased to €600 a week Or one party wants a 10 year rent freeze, or one party wants a Chinese style prefab concrete hospital thrown up in Athlone. Other parties will not agree to these measures, so what happens the "unity" government?

    They might be united against the pandemic crisis, but they would be in no way united in their policies and actions, which is the purpose of having a stable government.

    In Practice, a National Unity Government means - "Look somebody throw together a government and we all promise to play nice on the understanding that when this is all over we'll have another Election"

    On some levels it's a reasonable suggestion - Let's put aside all the negotiations for a new Government for the moment , let's fill the blanks in the Senate and Cabinet - e.g. Replace people like Regina Doherty , Shane Ross etc. and move forward for now , but this Dail will only last until such time as this crisis is over - 6 Months , 12 Months or whatever the agreement is.


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