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    #92
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    It is not the laws that have failed, there are already laws against trafficking, imprisoning, coercing, forced sex, murder and all the other crimes that these crime gangs engage in.

    What has and is failing is the enforcement and punishment of the criminals. We, Ireland and western countries in general, have utterly failed to deal with organised crime gangs and the criminalisation of vices is a large part of that. It has created huge lucrative markets for anyone willing to commit crimes to get rich and there are no shortage of those people around.

    Passing stupid legislation that further criminalises sexual acts that we have neither the willingness or resources to enforce is pointless, worse than that it leads to the authorities going after soft targets to look like they are doing their job enforcing the law rather than the difficult targets who are the traffickers and slavers/pimps.

    Since the law changed the only people in Ireland imprisoned have been a few eastern european prostitutes, it has done NOTHING to help trafficking victims or discourage traffickers and the only thing it will do to people wanting to pay money for sex is to make them less likely to ask questions about the status of the prostitutes because either way the punters are commiting a crime.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/jailing-of-sex-workers-keeping-brothel-shows-law-not-fit-for-purpose-1.3921149

    Fully agree with you that we need to tackle the organised crime gangs involved in this thoroughly. Absolutely no point in having laws and not enforcing them, or not giving Gardaí adequate resources to deal with it.


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    #93
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    anewme wrote: »
    Do you not think hookers is disrespectful ?

    Mens basic 'needs' should never be considered above anyones health, wellbeing and dignity.

    Is it too far a stretch to describe people working in the sex industry as 'sex workers'

    Why do you think hooker is disrespectful? I never said mens basic desires are above the dignity and health of any others,please stop misinterpreting my words, but as long as women and men can buy and sell sex it's never going to stop, all these new laws do is drive it deeper underground which suits criminals


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    #94
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,904 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Still waters wrote: »
    Why do you think hooker is disrespectful? I never said mens basic desires are above the dignity and health of any others,please stop misinterpreting my words, but as long as women and men can buy and sell sex it's never going to stop, all these new laws do is drive it deeper underground which suits criminals

    As per Sardonicat's post...maybe call them people?


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    #95
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Still waters wrote: »
    Why do you think hooker is disrespectful? I never said mens basic desires are above the dignity and health of any others,please stop misinterpreting my words, but as long as women and men can buy and sell sex it's never going to stop, all these new laws do is drive it deeper underground which suits criminals

    A large portion of the instances probably can be stopped. We absolutely should not make it a societal norm that women are commodities to be bought and sold.

    You’re continually ignoring the conversation around sex trafficking and pimps forcing vulnerable women into prostitution. Why? Because it doesn’t sit well with you. Yes, the truth is ugly - so you don’t want to look too close at it.


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    #96
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    anewme wrote: »
    Do you not think hookers is disrespectful ?

    Mens basic 'needs' should never be considered above anyones health, wellbeing and dignity.

    Is it too far a stretch to describe people working in the sex industry as 'sex workers'

    It is obviously too far a stretch for you to respect them enough to allow them to define themselves as sex workers or to respect them to define what they want to do with their bodies.

    Your attitude is neither respectful or helpful to the people you are purporting concern for, the reason why slang terms for prostitutes are still considered so disrespectful is because of the stigma attached to sex workers that is perpetuated by forcing morality beliefs that people such as yourself hold onto others.

    Talk to sex workers, they may or may not find being called hookers disrespectful, what they will find disrespectful is being looked down and judged by people such as yourself because of what they choose to do in private.


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    #97
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    anewme wrote: »
    As per Sardonicat's post...maybe call them people?

    Ah if he starts calling them people he might have to start thinking of them as people and that would complicate his world view.


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    #98
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    How about you call them people?
    anewme wrote: »
    As per Sardonicat's post...maybe call them people?

    Point taken i will refer to sex workers as people from now on, i apologise for any offence taken


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    #99
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    I heard the add and laughed. Like an episode of father Ted. Down with that sort of thing.
    What a grown adult does with themselves should be their choice.


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    #100
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The one area I'm in agreement with the feminists is regarding prostitution, accepting this is not on, men don't need to buy sex


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    #101
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    I heard the add and laughed. Like an episode of father Ted. Down with that sort of thing.
    What a grown adult does with themselves should be their choice.

    And how do you know when you visit a brothel or hotel room that the woman is there by choice and not being exploited?


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    #102
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    The one area I'm in agreement with the feminists is regarding prostitution, accepting this is not on, men don't need to buy sex
    Is that really a feminist position? Her body, her choice, I hear.


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    #103
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    And how do you know when you visit a brothel or hotel room that the woman is there by choice and not being exploited?

    I never visited a brothel.

    If person is not there by choice, that's a crime and it's up to the gards to resolve. Like if I smuggle in a third world person and keep them to clean my house for no pay. That's also a human right issue but does not tarnish the cleaning profession.


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    #104
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Proton Rocket wrote: »
    Why not let two consenting adults choose to have sex in exchange for cash if they wish?

    Feminists are the nuns of the 21st century.

    I’m a feminist and I absolutely love getting the ride. It’s a healthy, normal, fun part of life.

    Prostitution is not.


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    #105
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    KiKi III wrote: »
    A large portion of the instances probably can be stopped. We absolutely should not make it a societal norm that women are commodities to be bought and sold.

    We are all commodities, that is why it is called the labour MARKET.

    The exception you are making for sex work is based on forcing your morals around sex onto everyone else. Nobody should be forced into doing anything against their will, and lets be clear more people internationally are trafficked for non-sex labour, the fact YOU cannot comprehend having sex for money is no reason to criminalise those that don't feel the same way.
    KiKi III wrote: »
    You’re continually ignoring the conversation around sex trafficking and pimps forcing vulnerable women into prostitution. Why? Because it doesn’t sit well with you. Yes, the truth is ugly - so you don’t want to look too close at it.

    I don't. I fully support sex workers fight to decriminalise their profession as well as putting in place laws, enforcement and resources that is effective in tackling trafficking and sex slavery.

    Conflating the two topics by insisting that prostitution should be criminalised only serves only to further victimise already marginalised sex workers while doing nothing to help trafficking victims. Much of this conflation being is done by people such as Ruhama whose real motivation is pushing deeply conservative moralistic social policies, using the topic of sex trafficking to hide their real agenda.


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    #106
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    KiKi III wrote: »
    A large portion of the instances probably can be stopped. We absolutely should not make it a societal norm that women are commodities to be bought and sold.

    You’re continually ignoring the conversation around sex trafficking and pimps forcing vulnerable women into prostitution. Why? Because it doesn’t sit well with you. Yes, the truth is ugly - so you don’t want to look too close at it.

    Why women only? Men are involved in the trade as well, do they not matter when it comes to protecting people

    I'm not ignoring anything, if anything is true it's you who is ignoring that making laws that criminalise people for buying sex makes absolutely no dent in the need for sex people working in the sex industry, the need is still there, it accomplishes nothing. If you can't see that a regulated sex industry is good for people then i feel sorry for the people you're trying to protect


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    #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Still waters wrote: »
    how would you reduce the demand for one of the most basic needs of men ?

    One of men's most basic needs is to pay a prostitute for sex?


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    #108
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,904 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    It is obviously too far a stretch for you to respect them enough to allow them to define themselves as sex workers or to respect them to define what they want to do with their bodies.

    Your attitude is neither respectful or helpful to the people you are purporting concern for, the reason why slang terms for prostitutes are still considered so disrespectful is because of the stigma attached to sex workers that is perpetuated by forcing morality beliefs that people such as yourself hold onto others.

    Talk to sex workers, they may or may not find being called hookers disrespectful, what they will find disrespectful is being looked down and judged by people such as yourself because of what they choose to do in private.

    Show me where I looked down on anyone.

    You are assuming they all have a choice. Many dont.


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    #109
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    I never visited a brothel.

    If person is not there by choice, that's a crime and it's up to the gards to resolve. Like if I smuggle in a third world person and keep them to clean my house for no pay. That's also a human right issue but does not tarnish the cleaning profession.

    If it’s rampant across an industry (which it is in the sex industry), then it does tarnish the profession. And yes, it is a crime, one carried out by sophisticated criminal gangs who go to considerable effort to avoid being detected by the Gardaí.

    The simplest way to reduce prostitution is to reduce demand. It’s not inevitable that men will end up going to prostitutes. It’s a choice, just like choosing to take coke even though you know you’re lining the pockets of gangs.


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    #110
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I’m a feminist and I absolutely love getting the ride. It’s a healthy, normal, fun part of life.

    Prostitution is not.

    Woman's rights to make their own decisions and choose their own morals, as long as it's been cleared with Kiki to be normal first.


  • Options
    #111
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    If it’s rampant across an industry (which it is in the sex industry), then it does tarnish the profession. And yes, it is a crime, one carried out by sophisticated criminal gangs who go to considerable effort to avoid being detected by the Gardaí.

    The simplest way to reduce prostitution is to reduce demand. It’s not inevitable that men will end up going to prostitutes. It’s a choice, just like choosing to take coke even though you know you’re lining the pockets of gangs.


    Agreed, we need to stop the criminal gangs.

    We also should protect a person's rights to make their own decisions.


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    #112
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    We are all commodities, that is why it is called the labour MARKET.

    The exception you are making for sex work is based on forcing your morals around sex onto everyone else. Nobody should be forced into doing anything against their will, and lets be clear more people internationally are trafficked for non-sex labour, the fact YOU cannot comprehend having sex for money is no reason to criminalise those that don't feel the same way.



    I don't. I fully support sex workers fight to decriminalise their profession as well as putting in place laws, enforcement and resources that is effective in tackling trafficking and sex slavery.

    Conflating the two topics by insisting that prostitution should be criminalised only serves only to further victimise already marginalised sex workers while doing nothing to help trafficking victims. Much of this conflation being is done by people such as Ruhama whose real motivation is pushing deeply conservative moralistic social policies, using the topic of sex trafficking to hide their real agenda.

    You obviously haven’t read my posts.

    I’ve made two things clear: 1. I understand the sex trade will never be eradicated and 2. I understand that some women willingly choose prostitution as a profession.

    My point is that many don’t, and when you walk into a hotel room or brothel most of the time you you really have no idea whether the woman is being exploited or is there of her own free will.

    And is that a chance you’re willing to take?


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    #113
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Ah if he starts calling them people he might have to start thinking of them as people and that would complicate his world view.

    Unnecessary, I've given you no reason to respond like this in what was proving to be a topical interesting debate, resorting to this style of posting only makes you seem petty and belligerent, i see people working in the sex industry as i see everyone else in this world, for you to say otherwise is frankly disgusting


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    #114
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    Woman's rights to make their own decisions and choose their own morals, as long as it's been cleared with Kiki to be normal first.

    You’re acting like I’m up on my high horse and getting all moralistic.

    Well if that’s what it means to say it’s not acceptable for criminal gangs to sell vulnerable women’s bodies to men, so be it.


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    #115
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,904 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    Woman's rights to make their own decisions and choose their own morals, as long as it's been cleared with Kiki to be normal first.

    If they are trafficked, they have no rights.


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    #116
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Still waters wrote: »
    Unnecessary, I've given you no reason to respond like this in what was proving to be a topical interesting debate, resorting to this style of posting only makes you seem petty and belligerent, i see people working in the sex industry as i see everyone else in this world, for you to say otherwise is frankly disgusting

    Honestly, your posts show more empathy to horny men than exploited women and I think that’s disgusting.

    Your opinion of me means literally nothing to me.


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    #117
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    anewme wrote: »
    If they are trafficked, they have no rights.

    Correct, so that's a crime. I'm pro rights here.


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    #118
    mycro2013
    Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭mycro2013


    Should the government not just decriminalise and regulate the industry.


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    Agreed, we need to stop the criminal gangs.

    We also should protect a person's rights to make their own decisions.

    Which person? What decisions?


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    #120
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    mycro2013 wrote: »
    Should the government not just decriminalise and regulate the industry.

    This hasn’t worked well in other countries like Germany where sex trafficking is still a problem. I used to advocate legalisation and regulation until I heard this.


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    #121
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    anewme wrote: »
    You are assuming they all have a choice. Many dont.

    And you are conflating people who chose to do something with those who are forced by criminals.

    Sex workers are people who should not be moralised to by you or anyone else, sex trafficking victims are people who should be assisted by law enforcement by having criminal gangs rounded up and locked away in stinking holes for the rest of their lives.

    One thing is for sure, moralising against sex workers makes the latter even less likely to happen because as long as sex work is perceived to be the preserve of people only deserving of scorn or at best pity those trapped in the criminal underground will never be seen as a priority for crime agencies.

    We saw a version of that in Britain with all the scandals over Pakistani sex gangs grooming, coercing and pimping young girls right under the noses of the authorities. What was the general attitude of the Police and local authorities ignoring these crimees: "sure they are only whores"

    The fact that you are so entrenched in your personal beliefs that prostitution is bad, wrong, dirty, immoral, etc that you cannot see the stigma this attitude promotes is a large part of the reason sex trafficking is so poorly policed is sad.


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