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Flybe on the brink of collapse

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24

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    #32
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    How the hell did they manage to run up tax arrears of £100m ???

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #33
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,422 ✭✭✭✭cson


    UK ADP is GBP 13/26 per passenger one way.

    They flew 9.5m pax last year, 9x13 = 117m.


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    #34
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    cson wrote: »
    Isn't it just deferral of a tax bill rather than a write off?

    I think a lot of people suspect that a deferral will turn into a write off. Like the good old "interest only" loans of the celtic tiger that never seemed to get repaid.


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    #35
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So they've collected basically a whole year's worth of APD, spunked it away on plugging their losses now tell the taxman they're broke?

    HMRC should pursue an immediate winding-up order. It's not fair on legitimate businesses that some regard the revenue as a lender of last resort.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #36
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    So they've collected basically a whole year's worth of APD, spunked it away on plugging their losses now tell the taxman they're broke?

    HMRC should pursue an immediate winding-up order. It's not fair on legitimate businesses that some regard the revenue as a lender of last resort.

    Without having a plan in place to maintain connectivity, that would basically render much of the regional air network dead as there aren’t many likely replacements at a moment’s notice.

    Places like Belfast, southwest England and the Channel Islands would lose most of their regional flights in one go.

    Any actions need to be thought through - an immediate wind up isn’t the solution.


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    #37
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    It's a political move. In the past they would have just bald faced bailed it out, rules today say you (rightly) can't and so this was the solution. Brings you right back to the future of regional air transport, tho and the desirability of funding a service that just isn't profitable. Interesting to see a lot of the discussion in the UK also pointing out that it isn't environmentally sustainable when most of the journeys in mainland UK can be completed via public transport a a fraction of the carbon emissions. Sky pointed out that a railway journey north to south would cost about twice what a FlyBe flight would, but would have like 20kg of carbon emissions vs 100kg for the flight. Now we know that the FlyBe flight is underpriced as they're losing money, but isn't there a better argument for subsidising the railway over the air transport link in the world of trying to reduce emissions. Not every journey is a man trying to reach his mothers death bed on the far side of the country in 1.5hrs where the railway would take him 5.


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    #38
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The thing there is the railway is already subsidised at their fare level. More subsidy could be justified


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    #39
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    It's a political move. In the past they would have just bald faced bailed it out, rules today say you (rightly) can't and so this was the solution. Brings you right back to the future of regional air transport, tho and the desirability of funding a service that just isn't profitable. Interesting to see a lot of the discussion in the UK also pointing out that it isn't environmentally sustainable when most of the journeys in mainland UK can be completed via public transport a a fraction of the carbon emissions. Sky pointed out that a railway journey north to south would cost about twice what a FlyBe flight would, but would have like 20kg of carbon emissions vs 100kg for the flight. Now we know that the FlyBe flight is underpriced as they're losing money, but isn't there a better argument for subsidising the railway over the air transport link in the world of trying to reduce emissions. Not every journey is a man trying to reach his mothers death bed on the far side of the country in 1.5hrs where the railway would take him 5.

    Long distance rail fares in GB can be extortionate if you don’t book well in advance.

    That will have to change in order to mitigate the time difference with flying if such as The off-peak walk-up rail fare from Exeter to Edinburgh is GBP 216 single and that will take 7 hours.

    Flybe will do the same trip tomorrow in 90 minutes for GBP 107.

    Basically the UK government policy of shifting the burden of the cost onto rail passengers is going to have to be reversed.


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    #40
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Plenty of european countries were caught baling out their national airlines in the guise of "aid", Air France being one of the big offenders. Strictly speaking, Flybe should be done by the HMRC for tax offences,that an ordinary punter would be rammed with.


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    #41
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    When it gets to that level of what can only be called fraud, the directors need to be held personally and criminally responsible.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #42
    LeChienMefiant
    Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    Does this further the argument for HS2 if Flybe is gone?


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    #43
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    This media circus has done so much damage to forward bookings for a company that can ill afford it.
    The majority of their customers have the option to either jump in their car and drive a few hours more or drive to the nearest larger airport or to one of the train stations on a main trunk line.


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    #44
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    LeChienMefiant wrote: »
    Does this further the argument for HS2 if Flybe is gone?

    Not sure that HS2 has much relevance to flights to/from the southwest, Belfast, the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands where reliance on Flybe is highest.


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    #45
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    When it gets to that level of what can only be called fraud, the directors need to be held personally and criminally responsible.

    If they’re guilty of reckless trading, no doubt the financial authorities will pursue them accordingly.

    What about coming up with many practical alternative solutions for the passengers where the impact of the airline potentially closing would be highest?

    Or should that just be an afterthought?


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    #46
    wetoutside19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭wetoutside19


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    Strictly speaking, Flybe should be done by the HMRC for tax offences,that an ordinary punter would be rammed with.

    Strictly speaking that’s completely rubbish. What tax offence are you talking about. That’s a very serious allegation.

    At the end of 2018-19, HMRC had more than 700,000 time to pay arrangements in place to support taxpayers who were unable to pay their tax bills.


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    #47
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    wetoutside19 wrote: »
    Strictly speaking that’s completely rubbish. What tax offence are you talking about. That’s a very serious allegation.

    At the end of 2018-19, HMRC had more than 700,000 time to pay arrangements in place to support taxpayers who were unable to pay their tax bills.

    Ahh, the air passenger duty is collected from passengers by airlines on behalf of the government. If they don’t have the £100m that has been deferred then the scale of their mismanagement of finances is huge. They effectively collected the tax and spent it on their ongoing operations. The decision of the government to defer the payment of a company that does not appear to have a chance as a going concern without other cash being bunged in is state aid by another name, rather than a little bridging matter for a company tight on cash in Q1 to pay up their national insurance bill of £10k


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    #48
    wetoutside19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭wetoutside19


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Ahh, the air passenger duty is collected from passengers by airlines on behalf of the government. If they don’t have the £100m that has been deferred then the scale of their mismanagement of finances is huge. They effectively collected the tax and spent it on their ongoing operations. The decision of the government to defer the payment of a company that does not appear to have a chance as a going concern without other cash being bunged in is state aid by another name, rather than a little bridging matter for a company tight on cash in Q1 to pay up their national insurance bill of £10k

    Please confirm where you are getting an outstanding bill of £100m for ADP, I read £10m but the bailout covers a deferment of £100m, big difference between what I understand and what you have typed above.

    While i take onboard your comment that they are merely collecting agents for the government, they fly 8m per annum so I estimate £10m is 1-2 Mths liability. I’d imagine that all the revenue goes into a bank account and they pay their bills using this revenue pile, they don’t take a passengers revenue and put it into different piles saying this pile is airport x, this pile is airport y, this pile is tax A, etc

    So back to my original point, I don’t see how a business hitting a rough patch and are struggling to pay their bills means they “ should be done by the HMRC for tax offences” like stovepipe stated


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    #49
    California Dreamer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    wetoutside19 wrote: »
    Please confirm where you are getting an outstanding bill of £100m for ADP,

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/10732517/flybe-news-collapse-flights/


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    #50
    wetoutside19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭wetoutside19


    California Dreamer wrote: »
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/10732517/flybe-news-collapse-flights/

    Flybe confirms it will get a tax and duty holiday https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51147471

    As for quoting the sun........


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    #51
    California Dreamer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    wetoutside19 wrote: »
    Flybe confirms it will get a tax and duty holiday https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51147471

    As for quoting the sun........

    You asked and it was answered.

    I had heard 100m on BBC but far too lazy to go look for the report.


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    #52
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Stumbling on from crisis to crisis.
    Breaking: Flybe has told the government that it is running out of cash and will not survive until the end of the month. Airline has been hit by slump in bookings since COVID-19 outbreak. FlyBe says it needs a decision on its request for taxpayer loan of £100m “in the coming days”
    https://twitter.com/ITVJoel/status/1235196161155387394?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


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    #53
    kevinandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭kevinandrew


    It's looking very ominous for the airline tonight.

    https://twitter.com/MarkKleinmanSky/status/1235279608804773889

    Best of luck to them.


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    #54
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    https://twitter.com/PeterAdamSmith/status/1235302201851072513


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    #55
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,743 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Willie Walsh made a statement yesterday about “state aid shouldn’t be used to allow weaker airlines to survive”
    Could see IAG disputing any aid to FlyBE.


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    #56
    afatbollix
    Registered Users Posts: 4,047 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    Glasgow airport has impounded an aircraft.

    Also rumours that fuel trucks are not refilling planes.

    Feel for the crews stuck around the country.


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    #57
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Capture.jpg


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    #58
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Seems inevitable they will be bust by the morning, read on twitter the last flight is due to land in about 50 mins and at that time it will be official :(


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    #59
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,158 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    EI-GHK and GHJ on Flightradar24 now being positioned back to base, there were on lease to Flybe and stobart feared them being impounded


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    #60
    Donegal Storm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donegal Storm


    On BBC News now that they've already gone tonight


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    #61
    1wizards sleeve
    Registered Users Posts: 184 ✭✭1wizards sleeve


    What happens to future flights. Any money back


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