New Dail / New Taoiseach

The Tetrarch · 11-02-2020 05:12PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

SF are an all Ireland party. They will have advisors that span both jurisdictions. You can get all heated up about that if you want, but who cares.

Lloyd,
Please stop the personal remarks.
The point is Michelle O'Neill is a minister in another country.

Sleepy · 11-02-2020 05:22PM

I'm too young to have lived through the chaos the unions caused in Britain in the 70's but I'm not too young to be unaware of their carry on and (ironically, thanks to Labour policies) I'm educated enough to neither have need of them, nor to fall for the bluster of the career trade unionists when they have their tantrums on the airwaves. We have extremely strong legal protections for employees in Ireland and unless that changes, they're an obstacle to progress in my eyes (and, I believe, to many of the rest of my generation). While I'm aware that many of the worst offending public sector unions are no longer affiliated with Labour, I don't think the general public are.

It's not the only issue they're facing. Getting the blame for their role in the (imo, necessary) austerity policies of their time in power with FG being the largest one identified already in this thread of course, but for those of us who'd be liberal on social issues and centre left on economic policy who have had to hold our noses at the unions position in the party's structures while voting Labour in the past, we no longer need to, we can just vote Social Democrat.

is_that_so · 11-02-2020 06:00PM

ednwireland wrote: »

more to the point shouldn't Michelle o'Neill be in stormont as deputy first minister doing her job.

It was Sunday and parties do love to "donut" in front of the camera!

The Tetrarch · 11-02-2020 06:13PM

The UK exchequer provides a £10.8 billion (€12.8 billion) annual subsidy to Northern Ireland, and pays £8.6 billion net (€10.2 billion) each year to the European Union.
The UK government have taken steps to rid themselves of the €10.2 billion each year to the European Union.

In their manifesto Sinn Fein want to spend an initial €9.85 billion on capital expenditure in Ireland (if in government), and an extra €12.25 billion a year current spending, and as far as I can see another €2.4 billion on “giving workers and families a break”, and recover €3.8 billion through extra taxation.
I am unsure about the last two figures as it is unclear to me from their manifesto if the €2.4 billion spend, and the €3.8 billion extra taxation are in the earlier figures.

Sinn Fein will, I assume, in their plan for an all island Ireland, continue the UK €12.8 billion annual funding to what is now Northern Ireland.
And they will spend their manifesto extra €12.25 billion a year current spending in Ireland.
That would be, in a united Ireland, an extra €25.05 billion a year current spending (€12.8 billion UK + €12.25 Sinn Fein manifesto).

Northern Ireland has a population of 1,885,400, and Ireland has a population of 4,916,400, or 6,801,800 for the island.
There are 817,000 working in Northern Ireland, and 2,014,900 working in Ireland.
If Sinn Fein want to “tax the rich”, I will guess that is the top 20% of the population, or 20% of (817,000+2,015,000), or 20% of 2,832,000, or increase tax on 566,400 people.
If you try to tax the super-wealthy billionaires they will move offshore to tax havens. Many are abroad already.
Now an extra €25,050,000,000 spend a year split over 566,400 people is an extra €44,227 tax per working person.
Ireland’s national debt is €230 billion. I doubt we can put an extra overspend of €25 billion each year, every year, on the tab.

The latest CSO figures I see (2016) suggest to me that the top 20% of households have a gross income of €80,000 and above per annum. These households already pay tax.
Sinn Fein's manifesto, if implemented, would charge those households another €44,227 a year.
I assume one earner per household. If there is more than one earner per household they will/might escape the extra €44k a year, but others will pay more than €44k a year.

It is possible I got the sums terribly wrong. If anyone can put a better shape on it please do.

Riskymove · 11-02-2020 06:29PM

Now an extra €25,050,000,000 spend a year split over 566,400 people is an extra €44,227 tax per working person.

Tax is not only paid by individuals

beggars_bush · 11-02-2020 06:33PM

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

You don't pay tax on laundered money either

Widdensushi · 11-02-2020 06:35PM

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

The big companies will have a double whammy of struggling to get staff to work in a higher tax country and having to pay more tax themselves, what will happen next is obvious and then the tax burden will get higher on those who are left and so on till the country is completely ****ed.

The Tetrarch · 11-02-2020 06:35PM

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.
You tax the people who can not avoid it. A tax must be collectable.
Corporations will move.

The Tetrarch · 11-02-2020 06:37PM

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

If you can catch them. At times the Criminal Assets Bureau are required.

Charles Babbage · 11-02-2020 06:49PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.

Exactly. If tax a corporation then all you are doing is taxing its shareholders. It seems to be acceptable to do this because most of these live abroad and do not vote in Ireland. But as you say, the corporation can move or greatly reduce its exposure to Irish tax.

Inquitus · 11-02-2020 07:27PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.
You tax the people who can not avoid it. A tax must be collectable.
Corporations will move.

I am particularly concerned by the proposal to whack Multi-nationals with a whopping 15.75% ER Contributions on incomes above 100k. This will be a massive cost to them, one that certainly disincentivises their being here, and they are the main providers of the better paying jobs in the country.

That's before we even get into the more reckless area of changing intellectual property rules et al, as you correctly point out, it is easily avoided by moving, and given they are the main driver of our economy we need to be sensible about this. Thankfully they haven't got enough numbers to implement these sort of suicidal policies.

Valhallapt · 11-02-2020 07:36PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

In January 2020, Michelle O'Neill was appointed deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.
She is an elected representative of Northern Ireland, not Ireland.

That is a conflict of interest.

So if she was from Donegal that’s ok, but Derry is a conflict of interest!?!

LuckyLloyd · 11-02-2020 07:44PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Lloyd,
Please stop the personal remarks.
The point is Michelle O'Neill is a minister in another country.

And the point remains she's a senior member of SF and may well provide assistance to the negotiations. Which is all very normal for an all Ireland party, as unfamiliar as you may find the concept.

The Tetrarch · 11-02-2020 07:51PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And the point remains she's a senior member of SF and may well provide assistance to the negotiations. Which is all very normal for an all Ireland party, as unfamiliar as you may find the concept.

I understand she is the First Minister of Northern Ireland, not this country.
How can she work here, when she is employed there?
Will she favour Northern Ireland, or will she favour Ireland?

Valhallapt · 11-02-2020 09:17PM

Weepsie wrote: »

It's nothing to do with where she is from. She's an elected representative of a foreign government.

So she represents foreigners does she?

jam83 · 11-02-2020 09:21PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

So she represents foreigners does she?

Yes absolutely

LuckyLloyd · 11-02-2020 10:33PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I understand she is the First Minister of Northern Ireland, not this country.
How can she work here, when she is employed there?
Will she favour Northern Ireland, or will she favour Ireland?

SF would see it just as Ireland.

Dyr · 11-02-2020 10:38PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.
You tax the people who can not avoid it. A tax must be collectable.
Corporations will move.

If you're a retired accountant you'll realise that your 12.8 billion figure is nonsense, so why are using it?

Patrick2010 · 11-02-2020 10:56PM

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

Millionaire only not · 11-02-2020 10:59PM

Shane Ross sitting crouched in his seat , a beaten man !

BornIn84 · 11-02-2020 11:01PM

I despair at what's to come after comments from ELECTED OFFICIALS saying the "up the ra" and "we broke the bastards" - where is the sophistication and grace of these people.
I want smart people in government - i want people who will work with the budgets they have and don't promise the sun moon and stars because all of those shouting "the tired is turning" will be bitterly disappointed when not much changes...

Rodin · 11-02-2020 11:04PM

BornIn84 wrote: »

I despair at what's to come after comments from ELECTED OFFICIALS saying the "up the ra" and "we broke the bastards" - where is the sophistication and grace of these people.
I want smart people in government - i want people who will work with the budgets they have and don't promise the sun moon and stars because all of those shouting "the tired is turning" will be bitterly disappointed when not much changes...

You need a technocracy then. Not a democracy (where people aren't chosen on merit)

benjy1000 · 11-02-2020 11:06PM

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

She’s gutted Fianna Fáil didn’t do better.

LuckyLloyd · 11-02-2020 11:39PM

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

Her brother was in foul mood on drive time earlier too. Bad couple of days for FF members.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-02-2020 11:44PM

Rodin wrote: »

You need a technocracy then. Not a democracy (where people aren't chosen on merit)

I think the definition depends on who's choosing. I mean, in a democracy, people are - at least in theory - voting for the people they think are best qualified for a job.

Ministers being appointed on merit, though is a differetn thing. And quiet how some of them are picked is anyone's guess.

blanch152 · 12-02-2020 12:08AM

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

Very interesting Prime Time.

John Moran, former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, confirmed my view that the Sinn Fein manifesto wasn’t properly costed and had huge downside risks.

However, the most interesting bit was the Joe O’Brien reaction to the David Cullinane issue and his election agent, the Greens are not impressed.

expectationlost · 12-02-2020 12:19AM

Weepsie wrote: »

Maybe not the right place to ask or state, but I know michelle o Neill is an elected rep of SF in NI and the effective 2nd in command, but she's not elected to representative in the south.

She has no business imo being at any sort of discussion about forming our next government.

is she at any forum of discussing about forming the next government or was she at a SF meeting?

Valhallapt · 12-02-2020 08:58AM

I'm shocked at the anti Irish sentiment on this thread

Bees Tea · 12-02-2020 09:00AM

I how there’s no snow if Pearse Doherty has to come from Donegal for the negotiations ðŸ€£

Fr Tod Umptious · 12-02-2020 09:02AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Very interesting Prime Time.

John Moran, former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, confirmed my view that the Sinn Fein manifesto wasn’t properly costed and had huge downside risks.

However, the most interesting bit was the Joe O’Brien reaction to the David Cullinane issue and his election agent, the Greens are not impressed.

Day 1 - The Black and Tans got a mention.
Day 2 - "The Ra" got a mention.
Day 3 - The Free State was mentioned.
Day 4 - ?

New Dail / New Taoiseach

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