The future of the Bray-Greystones line

ohographite · 02-11-2019 9:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no way any third track can be put in between Lansdowne Rd and Sydney Parade. There is scope to put extra track south of Merrion Gates, but extremely disruptive, and problems with the wildlife sit at Booterstown - so no way there. They have recently removed the siding northside of DL on the up side - no idea why.

The only improvement would be to implement the Merrion Gates plan to put a bridge next to the Our Lady Queen of Peace church, which would remove Merrion Gates. They could also remove the gates Serpentine Ave by raising the line by 2 or 3 metres and dropping the road by a similar amount. Other than that, nothing can be done north of Shankill.

DL to Glenageary is in a cutting/tunnel with severe speed restrictions, so there is a problem looking for a solution.

I understand that between Dún Laoghaire and Killiney, adding a third track would be hugely expensive because of the tunnels, narrow cuttings, cliffs and the viaduct, which is why I omitted it from my hopes for the speed improvements of the Rosslare intercity service.

I think there should be space from the Serpentine avenue crossing and Dún Laoghaire to add a third track, since I know the route very well so I've seen how wide it is.
I'd say the wildlife reserve at Booterstown would be okay as the causeway with the railway on it looks wide enough to fit three tracks, so it wouldn't be necessary to cut into the reserve.

I know it'd be expensive but I think it would be brilliant for the improvements in journey times.

u140acro3xs7dm · 02-11-2019 9:45pm

ohographite wrote: »

I understand that between Dún Laoghaire and Killiney, adding a third track would be hugely expensive because of the tunnels, narrow cuttings, cliffs and the viaduct, which is why I omitted it from my hopes for the speed improvements of the Rosslare intercity service.

I think there should be space from the Serpentine avenue crossing and Dún Laoghaire to add a third track, since I know the route very well so I've seen how wide it is.
I'd say the wildlife reserve at Booterstown would be okay as the causeway with the railway on it looks wide enough to fit three tracks, so it wouldn't be necessary to cut into the reserve.

I know it'd be expensive but I think it would be brilliant for the improvements in journey times.

If the will is there, it can be done. Watch any of those engineering programmes on Discovery, there are always massive obstacles, but talented people will overcome it. The problem here is the political system, and the lack of will. They want short term results so they can win the next election - that goes for them all.

ohographite · 02-11-2019 9:48pm

Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »

If the will is there, it can be done. Watch any of those engineering programmes on Discovery, there are always massive obstacles, but talented people will overcome it. The problem here is the political system, and the lack of will. They want short term results so they can win the next election - that goes for them all.

I agree with all of this!
It can absolutely be done, and I think it should.

end of the road · 02-11-2019 11:34pm

ohographite wrote: »

I agree with all of this!
It can absolutely be done, and I think it should.

it or something similar will need to be done as well, regardless of whether inter city trains to rosslare exist or not.
darts will actually be the ones to benefit a hell of a lot more anyway, and if the dart does increase to 5 minutes long term, such a service on the infrastructure that exists now is going to have no leeway what soever when things go bang. they barely have it as it is .

Sam Russell · 02-11-2019 11:51pm

end of the road wrote: »

it or something similar will need to be done as well, regardless of whether inter city trains to rosslare exist or not.
darts will actually be the ones to benefit a hell of a lot more anyway, and if the dart does increase to 5 minutes long term, such a service on the infrastructure that exists now is going to have no leeway what soever when things go bang. they barely have it as it is .

I think that underground lines are more cost effective than the tinkering with the Dart line between Bray and the city centre.

Metro lines would be designed using modern driverless trains and very high frequency.

loyatemu · 06-02-2020 10:48am

TII met Wicklow Co Co this week and apparently said they will be funding the upgrade of the Bray-Greystones line to get to a 20 minute frequency as assumed by Busconnects. It will be rolled into the larger Dart Upgrade plan.

The white paper on this upgrade is linked elsewhere in this thread, but essentially it involves double tracking either side of Bray Head to reduce the length of the single-track section.

They also confirmed they're looking at converting the N11 hard shoulders to buslanes where possible, separate to the larger N11 upgrade plans (though obviously this will be incorporated into the plan when it eventually emerges).

CatInABox · 06-02-2020 10:52am

loyatemu wrote: »

TII met Wicklow Co Co this week and apparently said they will be funding the upgrade of the Bray-Greystones line to get to a 20 minute frequency as assumed by Busconnects. It will be rolled into the larger Dart Upgrade plan.

The white paper on this upgrade is linked elsewhere in this thread, but essentially it involves double tracking either side of Bray Head to reduce the length of the single-track section.

They also confirmed they're looking at converting the N11 hard shoulders to buslanes where possible, separate to the larger N11 upgrade plans (though obviously this will be incorporated into the plan when it eventually emerges).

Nice. Great to see some movement on this, even if it's just a stopgap.

Pete_Cavan · 06-02-2020 1:13pm

loyatemu wrote: »

TII met Wicklow Co Co this week and apparently said they will be funding the upgrade of the Bray-Greystones line to get to a 20 minute frequency as assumed by Busconnects. It will be rolled into the larger Dart Upgrade plan.

Any mention of a new station at the northern end of Greystones? It would make a lot of sense to do it as part of any upgrades.

loyatemu · 06-02-2020 2:07pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Any mention of a new station at the northern end of Greystones? It would make a lot of sense to do it as part of any upgrades.

I saw the info on FB from one of the local councillors who has been campaigning for the upgrade (Derek Mitchell FG), and there have been people asking the same question in the comments, but I don't think it's currently a live proposal.

As you say it might make sense to include a new halt in the upgrade, the problem I would foresee is the lack of road infrastructure or space for parking. Though even without parking it would probably improve traffic in the local area by discouraging northern-end residents from driving into the village to get to the station and existing P&R.

Pete_Cavan · 06-02-2020 3:13pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I saw the info on FB from one of the local councillors who has been campaigning for the upgrade (Derek Mitchell FG), and there have been people asking the same question in the comments, but I don't think it's currently a live proposal.

As you say it might make sense to include a new halt in the upgrade, the problem I would foresee is the lack of road infrastructure or space for parking. Though even without parking it would probably improve traffic in the local area by discouraging northern-end residents from driving into the village to get to the station and existing P&R.

The new station should be predominantly pedestrian andccyclist access, any parking spaces should be disabled only. The cliff walk could be upgraded to provide better access.

loyatemu · 06-02-2020 3:46pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The new station should be predominantly pedestrian and cyclist access, any parking spaces should be disabled only. The cliff walk could be upgraded to provide better access.

that is a good idea, but my impression is TII won't fund new suburban stations that don't have a P&R element.

re: the Cliff Walk, I could see some resistance from businesses in the town, currently you have to walk through the village to get to/from the Dart and the walk brings a lot of day-trippers to Greystones. If there was a station at Redford, some of them might just hop on a Dart back to Bray without continuing into town.

Pete_Cavan · 06-02-2020 4:01pm

loyatemu wrote: »

that is a good idea, but my impression is TII won't fund new suburban stations that don't have a P&R element.

re: the Cliff Walk, I could see some resistance from businesses in the town, currently you have to walk through the village to get to/from the Dart and the walk brings a lot of day-trippers to Greystones. If there was a station at Redford, some of them might just hop on a Dart back to Bray without continuing into town.

Where are you getting that impression from? I'd say TII are more likely to fund a basic station than they are to spend a small fortune on a station plus access road and parking. True sustainable transport is people walking/cycling to their local train station. P&Rs have a place too but we shouldn't be encouraging people to drive 1km in an urban area to get to a station.

loyatemu · 06-02-2020 4:28pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Where are you getting that impression from? I'd say TII are more likely to fund a basic station than they are to spend a small fortune on a station plus access road and parking. True sustainable transport is people walking/cycling to their local train station. P&Rs have a place too but we shouldn't be encouraging people to drive 1km in an urban area to get to a station.

I'm not disagreeing with that, I just feel TII may prioritise stations that have P&R.

As part of this upgrade there is talk of expanding the (already huge) P&R in Greystones, which will just drag more traffic into the town. The money would be better spent building cycle lanes connecting to the station and putting a small fee on the P&R to discourage locals from using it (it's currently free).

AAAAAAAAA · 06-02-2020 4:32pm

The bike parking at the existing Greystones station needs massive expansion, it's already always very full.

loyatemu · 06-02-2020 4:35pm

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

The bike parking at the existing Greystones station needs massive expansion, it's already always very full.

they installed a load more racks across the road last year. There's generally space there when the racks at the station itself are full.

ncounties · 06-02-2020 7:34pm

loyatemu wrote: »

they installed a load more racks across the road last year. There's generally space there when the racks at the station itself are full.

Anyone got a photo of the parking infrastructure, or is it visible on streetview? Perhaps the Dutch double level parking would be an option?

prunudo · 06-02-2020 8:06pm

loyatemu wrote: »

they installed a load more racks across the road last year. There's generally space there when the racks at the station itself are full.

Isn't there racks beside PTSB and Cafe Grey too.

Pete_Cavan · 06-02-2020 8:25pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with that, I just feel TII may prioritise stations that have P&R.

As part of this upgrade there is talk of expanding the (already huge) P&R in Greystones, which will just drag more traffic into the town. The money would be better spent building cycle lanes connecting to the station and putting a small fee on the P&R to discourage locals from using it (it's currently free).

Where is there any indication that they would prioritise P&R stations (which are much more expensive)? There are very few locations with potential for P&Rs. If they are doing extensive work to double track the line north of Greystones, adding a station would cost very little. The other new stations which they are actively pursuing don't have much parking (Pelletstown and Woodbrook).

prunudo · 06-02-2020 9:18pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The new station should be predominantly pedestrian andccyclist access, any parking spaces should be disabled only. The cliff walk could be upgraded to provide better access.

If located around Redford it would be a great alternative for the residents in the new Marina and existing estates around the north of the town. Personally and this probably won't go down well but I'd prefer if p&r's were utilised by commuters from the hinterlands and not people who drive 1 or 2km from the likes of Charlealand. I've seen posts on fb in the past of people complaining that 'our' park and ride is being used by people from outside the town! These are the very people that should be walking or cycling to the train station.

ncounties · 06-02-2020 9:24pm

prunudo wrote: »

If located around Redford it would be a great alternative for the residents in the new Marina and existing estates around the north of the town. Personally and this probably won't go down well but I'd prefer if p&r's were utilised by commuters from the hinterlands and not people who drive 1 or 2km from the likes of Charlealand. I've seen posts on fb in the past of people complaining that 'our' park and ride is being used by people from outside the town! These are the very people that should be walking or cycling to the train station.

With a spur, you could have a service that serves Kilcoole and stops with a P&R at the Newtown Mount Kennedy N11 Exit. With DARTs waiting here between services, you wouldn't inhibit Intercity services.

prunudo · 06-02-2020 9:32pm

ncounties wrote: »

With a spur, you could have a service that serves Kilcoole and stops with a P&R at the Newtown Mount Kennedy N11 Exit. With DARTs waiting here between services, you wouldn't inhibit Intercity services.

Is that you Eamon, a Dart for everyone in the audience. Lets get the Bray-Greystones secrion upgraded first. But yeah in the long run given the population growth for the area something more ambitious will have to be planned.

ncounties · 06-02-2020 9:38pm

prunudo wrote: »

Is that you Eamon, a Dart for everyone in the audience. Lets get the Bray-Greystones secrion upgraded first. But yeah in the long run given the population growth for the area something more ambitious will have to be planned.

People were discussing P&R's. I am just suggesting how it could be provided, whilst also benefiting non-motorists.

I could have put a disclaimer saying that obviously this would be at the bottom of the pecking order in terms of rail investment, but I thought that would be obvious.

SeanW · 06-02-2020 9:56pm

loyatemu wrote: »

TII met Wicklow Co Co this week and apparently said they will be funding the upgrade of the Bray-Greystones line to get to a 20 minute frequency as assumed by Busconnects. It will be rolled into the larger Dart Upgrade plan.

The white paper on this upgrade is linked elsewhere in this thread, but essentially it involves double tracking either side of Bray Head to reduce the length of the single-track section.

They also confirmed they're looking at converting the N11 hard shoulders to buslanes where possible, separate to the larger N11 upgrade plans (though obviously this will be incorporated into the plan when it eventually emerges).

All that would be a good start.

Thelonious Monk · 07-02-2020 11:27am

The dart is so slow sometimes it drives me nuts. Are there no stretches along the line where they could add a third track or some kind of overtaking track so darts don't get stuck behind intercity trains etc? Surely they could just CPO parts of back gardens along the route? It's so frustrating that you spend so long stuck on certain parts of the line nearly every time you use the service, and it hasn't improved since I started using it decades ago.

LXFlyer · 07-02-2020 11:33am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The dart is so slow sometimes it drives me nuts. Are there no stretches along the line where they could add a third track or some kind of overtaking track so darts don't get stuck behind intercity trains etc? Surely they could just CPO parts of back gardens along the route? It's so frustrating that you spend so long stuck on certain parts of the line nearly every time you use the service, and it hasn't improved since I started using it decades ago.

The Intercity trains don’t hold up the DART - it’s the other way around.

There’s damn all scope on the southside for overtaking (except possibly at Dún Laoghaire Station if it were remodelled).

Northside there will have to be some infrastructure improvements (three/four tracking between Killester and Raheny, additional southbound loop at Clongriffin, and additional loops elsewhere) to allow the Enterprise and northern line trains overtake DART services.

Sam Russell · 07-02-2020 4:42pm

They need to sort the south side level crossings, particularly Merrion Gates. There is/was a plant to divert the Strand Road through the car parks beside the church. That one needs to be done.

The rail could be raised at Serpentine Ave while dropping the road. Otherwise, the other ones are too difficult. Pity they did not do the Lansdowne one when the stadium was redeveloped.

They should terminate southbound diesels at Pearse/GDC, returning from GCD. Some Wexford trains should terminate at Bray, and return to Wexford providing a few extra services each day.

Idbatterim · 07-02-2020 5:24pm

The rail could be raised at Serpentine Ave while dropping the road. Otherwise, the other ones are too difficult. Pity they did not do the Lansdowne one when the stadium was redeveloped.

why in gods name was that not done at the time? would it have been too easy a solution or what?

LXFlyer · 07-02-2020 5:56pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They need to sort the south side level crossings, particularly Merrion Gates. There is/was a plant to divert the Strand Road through the car parks beside the church. That one needs to be done.

The rail could be raised at Serpentine Ave while dropping the road. Otherwise, the other ones are too difficult. Pity they did not do the Lansdowne one when the stadium was redeveloped.

They should terminate southbound diesels at Pearse/GDC, returning from GCD. Some Wexford trains should terminate at Bray, and return to Wexford providing a few extra services each day.

I don't disagree about the level crossings, but that's going to be a political hot potato.

An earlier train from Connolly to Wexford will I expect happen at some point, but there is still a serious shortage of drivers to operate additional services, so that is on for ice for now.

As to terminating at Pearse/GCD, there is nowhere to terminate trains from the south at either station. They have to continue to Connolly.

Secondly the sets have to be serviced and that is done at Connolly and Drogheda, and the sets work other trains north of Connolly. They are interworked with other routes to ensure that they are serviced within the cycle.

If they stopped short then those trains wouldn't operate.

Finally, people south of Greystones are paying Intercity fares and more importantly commuters are paying Intercity season ticket prices. Expecting them to change a DART for half their journey really is not a runner.

Effects · 07-02-2020 7:52pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The new station should be predominantly pedestrian andccyclist access, any parking spaces should be disabled only. The cliff walk could be upgraded to provide better access.

What's the reason for cutting off park and ride?

prunudo · 07-02-2020 9:08pm

https://wicklownow.ie/news/off-the-rails-plan-to-upgrade-bray-to-greystones-dart-to-cost-an-extra-e600m/

Something not right here, can't be costing that much to upgrade the line can it. I would have thought you'd get a new tunnel for near that price.

The future of the Bray-Greystones line

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