PRSTV - Our voting system explained

Badly Drunk Boy · 04-02-2020 04:08PM

cdaly_ wrote: »

I think the notion there is that the number of spoiled votes is available as a statistic and therefore demonstrates that some number of voters took the trouble to spoil their vote. If this number is large, perhaps there is a message of voter dissatisfaction to be read.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Spoiling your vote isnt about wasting your time or anyone elses. I've done it myself once in the past and for me it was literally saying 'Im taking part in the democratic process but there isnt a single candidate here I feel good enough to vote for'.

The thing about spoiling your vote is that...yeah, you're showing that you engaged in the democratic process, but in the statistic, there is nothing to differentiate you from the voter who is a bit stupid/careless and can't vote properly. And ultimately, it doesn't do anything...

Donnielighto · 04-02-2020 04:10PM

Zainab Greasy Violin wrote: »

Votes Surplus to the quota are randomly distributed. So there is an element of randomness in our elections. An alternative would be to transfer all the votes at a fraction of the value as done in australia.

Randomly selected not randomly distributed. I think that's what you meant anyway though.

Laphroaig52 · 04-02-2020 04:27PM

Ten Pin wrote: »

The total (12k) is only used to determine the percentage of his/her surplus to be allocated to each next preference candidate. Only the surplus is transferred, the elected candidate still retains the quota they already have.

Right. So the entire 12K (10 of which have already elected another candidate) are used to determine the distribution of the 2000 votes for the 2nd count.

So, if you voted No 1 for the candidate elected in the 1st count and No 2 for the candidate elected in the 2nd count, both candidates will benefit from your single vote.

Laphroaig52 · 04-02-2020 04:31PM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

The thing about spoiling your vote is that...yeah, you're showing that you engaged in the democratic process, but in the statistic, there is nothing to differentiate you from the voter who is a bit stupid/careless and can't vote properly. And ultimately, it doesn't do anything...

Well, it's a 'protest' vote. Yeah, I know....but walking up and down the street with a banner doesn't either.
If there was an extremely high number of intentionally spoiled votes, it is a clear signal that the electorate want a radical change to policies and approach.

Also, it prevents someone else from fraudulently using your vote.

eeepaulo · 04-02-2020 04:38PM

Very interesting stuff. When they do a recount when it's really close on the 2nd and subsequent redistributions do they use the same randomly selected ballots or do they pick new ones?

davidjtaylor · 04-02-2020 06:16PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Basically, not marking a ballot all the way down to your least favourite, if replicated by thousands of voters in the same pattern to the same candidate, can with a slight degree of probability and more likely in 3 seaters than say 5, very slightly lower the effective quota to be reached.

Aha. I said this in another thread and was told I was wrong! #smug

:D

Laurathesis · 04-02-2020 07:25PM

Can someone please tell me the best way to make sure my vote does not go to a particular party? Option 1 or 2?

1. Vote for only the candidates I want, leaving rest blank

Or

2. Vote all preferences1-12, giving my least preferred the 12.

Ten Pin · 04-02-2020 07:48PM

Can someone please tell me the best way to make sure my vote does not go to a particular party? Option 1 or 2?

1. Vote for only the candidates I want, leaving rest blank

Or

2. Vote all preferences1-12, giving my least preferred the 12.

Option 1

If you don't want a particular candidate/party elected then leave them blank.

Each vote is transferrable. As each 1,2,3 etc preference is either elected or eliminated, the next preference is effectively a number 1 so if you wouldn't give them a number 1 then don't give them any preference.

Every candidate down to the last preference on a filled ballot can benefit from your vote as it moves between candidates as the counts progress and your number 10 can theoretically get elected if there's still a seat to fill at that stage. If number 10 is still in the count then your vote could prevent him/her from being eliminated in a close contest.

Xertz · 04-02-2020 07:49PM

There was a fantastic animation of PR STV I’m counting and redistribution using a histogram doing the rounds on Twitter a couple of years ago. If anyone has it a link, perhaps post it.

Laurathesis · 04-02-2020 07:58PM

Thank you. That is what i thought, but people are telling me that by doing option 2 in a recount it would dilute the votes of people who filled out all preferences. Its a bit confusing

Ten Pin wrote: »

Option 1

If you don't want a particular candidate/party elected then leave them blank.

Each vote is transferrable. As each 1,2,3 etc preference is either elected or eliminated, the next preference is effectively a number 1 so if you wouldn't give them a number 1 then don't give them any preference.

Every candidate down to the last preference on a filled ballot can benefit from your vote as it moves between candidates as the counts progress and your number 10 can theoretically get elected if there's still a seat to fill at that stage. If number 10 is still in the count then your vote could prevent him/her from being eliminated in a close contest.

murpho999 · 04-02-2020 08:21PM

Laurathesis wrote: »

Can someone please tell me the best way to make sure my vote does not go to a particular party? Option 1 or 2?

1. Vote for only the candidates I want, leaving rest blank

Or

2. Vote all preferences1-12, giving my least preferred the 12.

Leave out the people/party you don't want. They cannot get a vote that you did not give.

Larbre34 · 04-02-2020 08:43PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Leave out the people/party you don't want. They cannot get a vote that you did not give.

As I said above, you're absolutely right, but mathematically it could slightly possibly lower the bar for them to reach instead. Its important that be clear to people, but I agree with you, not giving a preference is far more likely to have the effect you desire.

Capt'n Midnight · 04-02-2020 08:49PM

Laurathesis wrote: »

Can someone please tell me the best way to make sure my vote does not go to a particular party? Option 1 or 2?

1. Vote for only the candidates I want, leaving rest blank

Or

2. Vote all preferences1-12, giving my least preferred the 12.

Option 1 means you only vote against them on the first count.
It means your vote doesn't get transferred in case of surplus or elimination.

Option 2 means you are voting against them in every count in the event your keeps getting transferred right down to your 11th preference*.

* Some people say you should leave the 12th place blank and fill in the other 11 to be totally sure, but I can't see how with two candidates left the final preference is reached.

Sir Oxman · 04-02-2020 09:33PM

Laurathesis wrote: »

Can someone please tell me the best way to make sure my vote does not go to a particular party? Option 1 or 2?

1. Vote for only the candidates I want, leaving rest blank

Or

2. Vote all preferences1-12, giving my least preferred the 12.

Option 1

Brussels Sprout · 04-02-2020 10:33PM

Laurathesis wrote: »

Can someone please tell me the best way to make sure my vote does not go to a particular party? Option 1 or 2?

1. Vote for only the candidates I want, leaving rest blank

Or

2. Vote all preferences1-12, giving my least preferred the 12.

If, by "only the candidates I like" you mean the other 11 candidates in your example then both of those options are the exact same.

This is because in both scenarios there is no way that the ballot can end up transferring to your despised candidate AND by filling in all of the other preferences you maximise the chance that the ballot ends up helping one of the other candidates at the expense of the person you dislike.

If on the other hand, you only like 4 of the candidates and are neutral on the other 7 so were thinking of only giving preferences for 1-4 then you'd be better going for Option 2 to keep out the disliked candidate.

Capt'n Midnight · 04-02-2020 10:47PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If, by "only the candidates I like" you mean the other 11 candidates in your example then both of those options are the exact same.

This is Ireland, the land of begrudgers. Everyone has at least disliked candidate.

So pick the one you like least and work back.
Or pick the ones who are closest to getting elected at the bottom.

It's your civic duty and you'll sleep better knowing that at least one sleeveen has been denied any benefit from your vote.

glack · 05-02-2020 07:35PM

Candidate A reached the quota of 14000 and has a surplus of 1000 after the first count.

His surplus of 1000 votes will be distributed in the second count.

After examination, he had 600 non transferable votes.

Does that mean that only 960 votes get transferred? 600 out of 15000 of 4%, 4% of 1000 is 40 so 960 remaining.

Or how does that work??

Brussels Sprout · 05-02-2020 08:25PM

glack wrote: »

Candidate A reached the quota of 14000 and has a surplus of 1000 after the first count.

His surplus of 1000 votes will be distributed in the second count.

After examination, he had 600 non transferable votes.

Does that mean that only 960 votes get transferred? 600 out of 15000 of 4%, 4% of 1000 is 40 so 960 remaining.

Or how does that work??

He will still transfer 1000 votes. They will be chosen from the 14,400 transferable votes in proportion to the number of #2 preferences each of the candidates have.

glack · 05-02-2020 08:44PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

He will still transfer 1000 votes. They will be chosen from the 14,400 transferable votes in proportion to the number of #2 preferences each of the candidates have.

Thank you. Trying to inform myself but it’s difficult to get all of the scenarios explained in one place.

joeysoap · 06-02-2020 12:18AM

If you number 1 gets eliminated and your after numbers 2,3,4 ,5 are already eliminated does your number 6 still count? And if you transfer to number 6 (if they are still running)and then get he/she gets. eliminated and your 7 an 8 are already eliminated does it carry on to number 9 ? Ie does your number 9 carry the same weight as candidate 6 number 2’s ?.

Apologies for the convoluted question.

Bebra · 06-02-2020 12:34AM

I've heard that putting an 'X' beside one candidate and leaving the rest blank is counted as a number 1 for that candidate.
Has anyone else heard this?

joeysoap · 06-02-2020 12:47AM

Yes, I heard that too. But why would you. ?

Parties doing a bad job informing voters before elections how the voting actually works. Better than fptp though.

Charles Babbage · 06-02-2020 12:55AM

Wayne Icy Grocery wrote: »

Would still love an explanation on the way a surplus is allocated. Are all votes counted to determine the ratio, or just the number over the quota?

In NI all the votes are counted to determine a ratio, in the ROI only a sample are used.

If you number 1 gets eliminated and your after numbers 2,3,4 ,5 are already eliminated does your number 6 still count? And if you transfer to number 6 (if they are still running)and then get he/she gets. eliminated and your 7 an 8 are already eliminated does it carry on to number 9 ? Ie does your number 9 carry the same weight as candidate 6 number 2’s ?.

Your vote carries on until it is used to elect someone, unless you happen to end up on the second last candidate.

Ten Pin · 06-02-2020 12:56AM

If you number 1 gets eliminated and your after numbers 2,3,4 ,5 are already eliminated does your number 6 still count? And if you transfer to number 6 (if they are still running)and then get he/she gets. eliminated and your 7 an 8 are already eliminated does it carry on to number 9 ? Ie does your number 9 carry the same weight as candidate 6 number 2’s ?.

Apologies for the convoluted question.

The ballot paper counts as 1 vote. The preferences 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10...indicates the order in which you want your vote to move through the count process.

If all candidates from 1-8 are eliminated then number 9 gets the benefit of your vote and it is of same value as the votes that candidate received from voters who gave them no.1.

Your number 9 could prevent a candidate from being eliminated and then subsequently get elected in the following count.

If you don't want no.9 to get elected then leave them blank.

Ten Pin · 06-02-2020 01:09AM

I've heard that putting an 'X' beside one candidate and leaving the rest blank is counted as a number 1 for that candidate.
Has anyone else heard this?

AFAIK this was true in the past but there was a court ruling that deemed X votes as invalid/spoiled.

Every ballot paper must start with a '1' to be valid.
https://www.thejournal.ie/spoiled-votes-ireland-2014-supreme-court-ruling-4658170-May2019/

https://www.thejournal.ie/dan-kiely-listowel-supreme-court-2509342-Dec2015/

Bebra · 06-02-2020 01:10AM

Detailed explanation of the process here.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-02-2020 03:03AM

Some questions -

1. Let's say by accident I vote 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6. Presumably my 1, 2, 3 are counted as normal, and when it counting the 4 it is regarded as non-transferable?

2. As above, but 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. Can the 5 and 6 be counted?

3. They count the number of issued ballots for each box and then the first thing they do when they open the box is count the total votes in it. If I fold up my ballot paper, pocket it and walk out unnoticed (very possible if it's busy) then the numbers won't tally. What if anything do they do then?

Brussels Sprout · 06-02-2020 10:48AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Some questions -

1. Let's say by accident I vote 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6. Presumably my 1, 2, 3 are counted as normal, and when it counting the 4 it is regarded as non-transferable?

2. As above, but 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. Can the 5 and 6 be counted?

3. They count the number of issued ballots for each box and then the first thing they do when they open the box is count the total votes in it. If I fold up my ballot paper, pocket it and walk out unnoticed (very possible if it's busy) then the numbers won't tally. What if anything do they do then?

Great questions! I'd also like to know the answers to all these.

Utter Consternation · 06-02-2020 10:57AM

I haven't got my polling card. I've checked online and i'm registered. Is it ok to go down to the Voting Centre on Saturday with just my ID?

Hotblack Desiato · 06-02-2020 11:15AM

Yes, photo ID if you can, a bill or something with your address as well if you're feeling paranoid, but you don't need the polling card.

PRSTV - Our voting system explained

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