Do You Find it Difficult Being Gay at Work?

JackTaylorFan · 14-01-2020 12:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

A bit? You're a live wire and a massive HR risk for anyone you work with.

You talk about a lifetime ban here for posts with no discrimination or hatred. I wonder how many times you've gone to HR looking for the same about someone who made a tiny mistake in their language like I did.

That's why you're ostracized at work.

Keep the personal attacks coming. If you believe what you're saying then you know you're picking on someone in a very vulnerable place.

Luckily, you haven't got a clue about me or how I treat people in real life.

And no, I've never gone to HR about anyone. But keep the assumptions coming. It's what you guys are good at

A simple apology and admitting you made a mistake rather than trying to explain away your **** up would have went down a lot better, But youre not a big enough person to do that are you?

14-01-2020 1:10am

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Keep the personal attacks coming. If you believe what you're saying then you know you're picking on someone in a very vulnerable place.

Luckily, you haven't got a clue about me or how I treat people in real life.

And no, I've never gone to HR about anyone. But keep the assumptions coming. It's what you guys are good at

A simple apology and admitting you made a mistake rather than trying to explain away your **** up would have went down a lot better, But youre not a big enough person to do that are you?

Personal attacks and picking on.. I haven't done either so I have no idea what you think I owe an apology for. I admitted I made a mistake six minutes after I made it when I said I came back to change it.

JackTaylorFan · 14-01-2020 1:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

I admitted I made a mistake six minutes after I made it when I said I came back to change it.

No you didn't. You said you knew someone would take it the wrong way. That's not an apology. That's you blaming other people for your actions.

Take responsibility.

NSAman · 14-01-2020 1:21am

I work in creative areas and many of my staff / co-workers / clients are gay. I am straight and it is not and never has been an issue.

I remember the first person who came to me to tell me he was gay, years ago in Ireland. I think he was kind of shocked that I said "so"? A great young man and someone who has developed himself in leaps and bounds over the period I have known him both personally and professionally.

I know my interactions with people have always been about the person, not their colour, religion, sexuality or any other aspect of themselves. If they are a decent human being, that is all I care about.

14-01-2020 2:13am

I work in a bank and honestly theres absolutely no issue at all, not even a hint of it which I was surprised at.
I think part of the reason is that there are gay people at all levels in the organisation, and most are very open about it. That and it any issue over it simply wouldnt be tolerated.
Have worked for another bank and while on the surface it supported the LGBT community, I'm reality there was always snide remarks made behind closed doors. None of that whatsoever in new place.....not even a hint of it.

Annasopra · 14-01-2020 9:08am

Mod

Ads By Google and JackTaylorFan this thread is not about either of you. Stop making personal remarks at each other and stop dragging the thread off topic.

seamus · 14-01-2020 9:34am

ED E wrote: »

*Raises hand*

Straight lad here, work in tech which seems to have average -> above average LGBT among the workforce.

I'm not sure but some of your post comes across as not being part of "the lads". By that I mean the real stereotypical "lads". Couldn't tell you the difference between the premiership and the FA cup (they're things right?) and that has always meant I don't slot naturally into a lot of gents in the canteen groups, especially the less technical guys. Nothing to do with sexual orientation. Its hard to be clear from the OP it this might be the height of whats going on and you're misattributing it or if there's something more.

/2c

Pretty much the exact same here.

I do certainly understand how some of the common tropes still exist in small pockets.

I would attribute most of the more benign stuff - apparent discomfort, awkward jokes to try and appear "down" with the gayness - to the fact that a lot of straight people, like myself, simply have very little experience of gay people. I have no gay friends, and someone being casually "out" hasn't been a thing until 10/15 years ago. It was 2013 before I worked with anyone that I knew was gay and talked about it freely.

And you will say, "But gay people are no different to other people". And that's kind of the point. People who've never been around gay people, expect them to be different. They expect to have to act differently, to have to talk about different things, or to alter their own behaviour. So when they are around gay people, they're slightly less comfortable.
Their head is ringing with, "Don't talk about the gay thing. He's gay. Maybe I should let him know I'm ok with it? No, I don't know him at all. He's gay. Try focus on work. He's gay. No, stop, that doesn't matter. Gay".

To a certain extent you can liken it to hearing some scandalous backstory about a friend that you're not allowed alk about and then the next time you see them, that's all you can think about.

It does go away over time, but you will continue to find that large swathes of the population don't know any gay people, and have expectations that the "first time" they talk with a gay person will be different to talking to any other human being.

I say that working in tech though. I would imagine experiences vary massively by industry and organisation.

NSAman · 14-01-2020 4:25pm

seamus wrote: »

Pretty much the exact same here.

I do certainly understand how some of the common tropes still exist in small pockets.

I would attribute most of the more benign stuff - apparent discomfort, awkward jokes to try and appear "down" with the gayness - to the fact that a lot of straight people, like myself, simply have very little experience of gay people. I have no gay friends, and someone being casually "out" hasn't been a thing until 10/15 years ago. It was 2013 before I worked with anyone that I knew was gay and talked about it freely.

And you will say, "But gay people are no different to other people". And that's kind of the point. People who've never been around gay people, expect them to be different. They expect to have to act differently, to have to talk about different things, or to alter their own behaviour. So when they are around gay people, they're slightly less comfortable.
Their head is ringing with, "Don't talk about the gay thing. He's gay. Maybe I should let him know I'm ok with it? No, I don't know him at all. He's gay. Try focus on work. He's gay. No, stop, that doesn't matter. Gay".

To a certain extent you can liken it to hearing some scandalous backstory about a friend that you're not allowed alk about and then the next time you see them, that's all you can think about.

It does go away over time, but you will continue to find that large swathes of the population don't know any gay people, and have expectations that the "first time" they talk with a gay person will be different to talking to any other human being.

I say that working in tech though. I would imagine experiences vary massively by industry and organisation.

Yes, that is obviously an issue. Some people are not "used" to interacting with gay people, that is something that is ending thankfully.

The more the "norm" it becomes the better.

The younger generation (I am an oldie at this stage) don't see difference and that is superb.

The generation older than I am still see it as something strange, even in my generation they see "difference".

I suppose many of us that have gay friends/colleagues/family members, see the person not the "sexuality".

ixoy · 15-01-2020 12:07am

seamus wrote: »

It does go away over time, but you will continue to find that large swathes of the population don't know any gay people, and have expectations that the "first time" they talk with a gay person will be different to talking to any other human being.

I say that working in tech though. I would imagine experiences vary massively by industry and organisation.

I'd modify that - there's likely a large swathe of the population who think they don't know any gay people, because they'll just make the assumption that all their colleagues are straight as they've no reason to otherwise (even more so if they have preconceptions of what a gay person would act like).

I'm in tech and there's never been an issue. Been a few gay people on my team over the years and never been treated differently. For those who weren't aware about myself, I found getting married last year made things a lot clearer when people were asking about it

work · 15-01-2020 12:18am

Elysium1 wrote: »

Hi all

I've just started a new job and I've noticed a repeating pattern. I think a lot of straight guys I work with figure out or assume I'm gay then don't build a basic relationship or avoid communication. I think they run a checklist like:

- do you like sports
- have an interest in fashion / display above average dress sense
- don't act supremely macho
- other tripe, stereotypes or crap

I don't usually 'come out' exactly at work, but if I'm around long enough and colleagues ask am I dating etc. then I'll just say who I'm dating. I don't go around my jobs staring at other guys or anything. Do I glance for 1 millisecond longer at a guy than at a girl? Very likely - as I'm sure we all do with the gender(s) we're attacted to.

It kind of annoys me. My sexuality is a very small part of who I am and it always has been. Most people tell me they wouldn't have guessed that I'm gay, but, in the past, nosey male colleagues have been sly about asking me things and then roll with clichés. In some cases in previous jobs, where I know a few guys were trying to figure it out, they avoided lunch with me or would bolt away or out of the work bathroom. Amazing when you think it's 2020. For the record, I've never been a urinal snooper. If I counted the amount of straight guys staring at my dick in a locker room or bathroom, it's really the other way around. But is any of this necessary.

I think there is some irrational thinking, that a gay person at work MUST - ABSOLUTELY MUST - be attracted to all of the people of the same gender at work. Which is of course, ridiculous. Do I avoid women because of the possibility than an occiasional single one might have an interest in me? No, of course not. But I suspect that's a common straight male fear.

It's even worse when we have a gay taoiseach. Not that we need that to protect us, but it normally is a statement that the society - really is - OK with things.

So, does any of this happen in your work?

In the unlikely event that any straight guys read this, the insight would be especially helpful (though I doubt any would be reading this).

Straight guy answering the OPs query. I'm not reading the banter in this thread as it doesn't interest me but politely answering does.

We still have hangovers about homosexuality as we mostly (I'm 46) grew up with gay degrading jokes bantered around. Personally I think those days are gone. I cannot remember that last derogatory gay comment made to me. I seriously doubt anyone cares about others sexuality any more though I always feel sad for homosexuals because it must be harder to find partners (assuming they are a minority) but sure I am not there so do not really know.
In the OPs case I believe you are reading too much into the chat guys have that do not interest you. I do not engage in any football talk as I find it BORING but do not read anything into it.
In summary almost nobody cares about your sexuality and if they do I hope its because they are either interested in you or your sexuality otherwise they are best not being associated with.
Just be friendly and talk about stuff you like.

Irish Aris · 17-01-2020 8:09pm

I think gradually the stereotypes are going away, as the younger generation is generally more tolerant and/or don't care about it.

I work in finance for a multinational - outside of Dublin.
I never had to hide the fact that I'm gay and I didn't go advertising it either, the "coming-out" happened naturally, as part of everyday conversation. Some people seemed to have picked it up themselves. I didn't observe any change in behaviour. Some people would occasionally ask me if I have a partner but in general my sexuality doesn't come up as a topic. Not sure if some people avoid the topic because they feel uncomfortable but I don't spend time thinking about it, I'm old enough to not care about it.

With most of the straight guys there is the usual banter about football (I follow the English Premier League closely, as I am a big Arsenal fan), plus work items and other social topics, so we never ran out of chit-chatting. Occasionally there would be night outs - although as I get older I find very difficult to keep up with the speed of drinking of some of the younger lads!!

Elysium1 · 21-01-2020 8:29am

ED E wrote: »

*Raises hand*

Straight lad here, work in tech which seems to have average -> above average LGBT among the workforce.

I'm not sure but some of your post comes across as not being part of "the lads". By that I mean the real stereotypical "lads". Couldn't tell you the difference between the premiership and the FA cup (they're things right?) and that has always meant I don't slot naturally into a lot of gents in the canteen groups, especially the less technical guys. Nothing to do with sexual orientation. Its hard to be clear from the OP it this might be the height of whats going on and you're misattributing it or if there's something more.

/2c

Interesting stories from everyone.

As I’ve come back and saw so many pretty positive replies, I was wondering did I have bad luck in a previous job attracting the wrath of a couple of phobes and perhaps had taken some fears, negative feelings about that with me.

You could be right about about ‘not being one of the lads’, I’m definitely not. I’m tepid on sport and certainly don’t watch football. And as it happens I was beginning to think that was it. I’m pretty techie too (and intellectual) so I can see what you’re saying.

The previous experience I mentioned shows that not all workplaces or people are ‘down with it’ however.

Lack of warmth for nothing being one of the lads’ is better than lack of warmth because of sexuality, so I’ll take it.

Elysium1 · 21-01-2020 8:35am

wiggle16 wrote: »

It might depend a lot on the industry.

I was bullied out of my first job after I told someone I became friendly with that I was gay, about 15 lads I got on with just turned on me overnight, and the ugliest one in the bunch spread a rumour that I had cracked onto him. I quit a few weeks later, it got too much. One of the managers asked me to do an exit interview, even though they are not done in that job type because there is such high turnover, so management were aware of it and chose to ignore it. I never did anything about it because I wasn't out to my family at the time and just wanted to leave it behind. It did make me much more cautious about telling people though for a long time.

Apart from that, I've never really had a problem over it.

I think to a certain extent that LGBT people can be a bit more concerned about it being an issue than the people we work with are, along the lines of ED E's post. It is a bit hard to tell how much of that behaviour is motivated by "laddishness" and how much might be a discomfort with LGBT people.

You’ve had it rough there. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

I’m not a flag-carrying member of the group, but I think there’s a common misconception that ‘all is good’ and we don’t need to talk about these things. Both of our experiences clearly show that there is always work to be done in terms of equality.

In my case, I moved on better putting that job behind me. I didn’t wanna be the ‘court guy’. I left with a great reference anyway and it’s behind. You seem like you’ve grown too.

Seamai · 21-01-2020 12:50pm

I've not found being out at work an issue for me, 20 years ago NOT being out at work was a huge issue, I used to invest a lot of energy in covering my tracks and fabricating a straight persona, the fact of the matter is that some of them had worked it out already (Cork isn't that big) and none of the others really had any problems with it, there are one or two of the lads who I suspect are mildly uncomfortable around the topic or perhaps concerned that I might be offended by something they might say. One guy told a joke once about Tom Cruise working in a fudge packing factory and spent the next week apologising to me over it, was I offended by it?, no I wasn't, certainly not when it was told by this particular guy. Growing up and coming out in 80's Ireland you had to develop a thick skin and also I'd rather people felt comfortable enough as to not have to pussyfoot around me.

I've been told by people who don't know me very well that I come across as a bit of a man's man but I don't think that's true, having said that I don't sit around the office talking fashion and spa treatments with the women either. Until not that long ago I often felt deeply inadequate in straight male company, I have zero interest in the great common denominator of soccer, (though I enjoy rugby), even less interest in cars (it's a chunk of metal that gets me from A to B and if I'm lucky it wont give me too many problems) and obviously no interest in the "rack on your one at the bar" (sorry ladies) on a night out so that rules me out of a lot of lads conversation but it's not everyone. There's a guy I share an office with of a similar age to me (mid 50's) married with kids who I get on really well with, he confides a lot in me, things which I'd say he might not feel comfortable discussing with his straight friends.

The company I work for a company has about 15 staff, so it's not huge, everyone tends to know everyone else's business, there was a time when I would have said that there was no need to be out at work, I was cautioned by some gay friends about coming out, my family actually encouraged it. TBH when I did it was like I passed the final frontier and came out the outer side unscathed and found myself asking why did I tie myself up in knots for all those years lying? I was able to get on with things and free up all that energy for other stuff. I like to create a boundary between my work life and private life (it's important that you can switch off once you are outside work), but when you are spending up to 40 hours a week at work it helps when you get on with your colleagues (or at least some of them), you don't have to get on with everyone, some work relationships can be superficial, there are people in my company that I realise I have very little in common with (mainly the younger ones) but that's got nothing to do with me being gay. I treat people with respect and invariably I get it back.

gmisk · 21-01-2020 5:11pm

Gay man described as 'f****t' by colleague awarded €27k over being harassed in workplace https://jrnl.ie/4973725

This case just shows you it is still an issue unfortunately. Seems like feck all done to the guy involved.

I have been very lucky where I have worked to be honest.
Some young guy came into our office and made some comment about "queers", but a few colleagues pulled him up on it and he looked absolutely mortified clearly no intention behind it.

Still waters · 21-01-2020 5:40pm

gmisk wrote: »

Gay man described as 'f****t' by colleague awarded €27k over being harassed in workplace https://jrnl.ie/4973725

This case just shows you it is still an issue unfortunately. Seems like feck all done to the guy involved.

I have been very lucky where I have worked to be honest.
Some young guy came into our office and made some comment about "queers", but a few colleagues pulled him up on it and he looked absolutely mortified clearly no intention behind it.

What kind of backward fcukers are they to think that sort of carry on is ok, hopefully someone got the sack over it

Elysium1 · 21-01-2020 6:13pm

gmisk wrote: »

Gay man described as 'f****t' by colleague awarded €27k over being harassed in workplace https://jrnl.ie/4973725

This case just shows you it is still an issue unfortunately. Seems like feck all done to the guy involved.

I have been very lucky where I have worked to be honest.
Some young guy came into our office and made some comment about "queers", but a few colleagues pulled him up on it and he looked absolutely mortified clearly no intention behind it.

18 months ago, I was very nearly this case. Less severe, but similar.

ongarboy · 21-01-2020 11:27pm

What an awful and frankly upsetting article to read..just when you thought the country was more tolerant(thankfully for the majority it is). The company (and preferably the individuals who caused the issues) should be named and shamed even if they no longer have a presence in Ireland to expose what sort of culture they operate in their work places! Pity how individual culprits always get off scot free in these circumstances and enjoy anonymity!

gmisk · 21-01-2020 11:33pm

Elysium1 wrote: »

18 months ago, I was very nearly this case. Less severe, but similar.

Really sorry to hear that.
It is extremely depressing that crap like this still goes on.

Maz2016 · 22-01-2020 12:56am

gmisk wrote: »

Gay man described as 'f****t' by colleague awarded €27k over being harassed in workplace https://jrnl.ie/4973725

This case just shows you it is still an issue unfortunately. Seems like feck all done to the guy involved.

I have been very lucky where I have worked to be honest.
Some young guy came into our office and made some comment about "queers", but a few colleagues pulled him up on it and he looked absolutely mortified clearly no intention behind it.

I read this article earlier. Honest to God, not many articles get to me but this is so sad. I felt so sorry for this man - to end up in a&e. I hope to God those coworkers have read that article and realise the consequences of their actions. They should be ashamed. That man should be so so proud of himself for going down the legal route with this. I hope it brings him closure and allows him move on.

JackTaylorFan · 22-01-2020 8:02am

gmisk wrote: »

Gay man described as 'f****t' by colleague awarded €27k over being harassed in workplace https://jrnl.ie/4973725

Can't believe any of yous are shocked by this, to be quite honest

splinter65 · 22-01-2020 8:09am

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

People treat me fine, until I inform them I'm trans. Then you get treated like a third class citizen.

If your a woman now then why don’t you just live like a woman?

JackTaylorFan · 22-01-2020 8:24am

splinter65 wrote: »

If your a woman now then why don’t you just live like a woman?

Do go on... I'm interested in this denial of my trans identity and why I should hide it

splinter65 · 22-01-2020 9:21am

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Do go on... I'm interested in this denial of my trans identity and why I should hide it

In what circumstances in a professional work setting do you feel obliged to share the fact that you used to be a man? I’m 40 years at work and I knew from early on that every single colleague has something quite big going on in their life
A family member or loved one in poor health or some other distress
Money problems
Relationship problems
Housing issues
Problems with kids
And people come to work primarily to earn a living as peacefully as they can.
They mix and mingle at break times and chat about current affairs, DWTS etc sports,
Most people know that if you have a personal issue that is stressing you so bad that you find it hard to function professionally that the best thing to do if at all possible is to take medical leave.
In the light of this I’m genuinely struggling to envisage a work situation where it’s ever necessary to say “I used to be a man”.
I genuinely would like to hear you on this?

JackTaylorFan · 22-01-2020 9:52am

splinter65 wrote: »

In what circumstances in a professional work setting do you feel obliged to share the fact that you used to be a man?

Sorry, I lost all respect for you and your opinion after this. I can smell the bigotry in your post it's that potent. Never was a man. But cheers.

Mattdhg · 22-01-2020 9:53am

Intentionally lying about one's trans past would not set a good precedent, imo. Could lead to a lot of anguish.

I'm a gay man, and find with random acquaintances and people on my outer most circle it's not worth the hassle of insisting "No, that girl you saw me with really is just a friend. I'm gay" as its a real mouthful, and then it's left hanging in the air. Whenever these situations arise with a friend who knows I'm gay they always think I'm doing myself a disservice by not acknowledging my homosexuality, and they're right. Its disquieting.

A trans person has gone through much longer and much more arduous struggles and obstacles. Suddenly keeping quiet about a large chunk of their life might make social encounters easier in the short term, but in the long term its destructive to their mental health.

splinter65 · 22-01-2020 10:47am

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Sorry, I lost all respect for you and your opinion after this. I can smell the bigotry in your post it's that potent. Never was a man. But cheers.

If this is your attitude then you have my deepest sympathy. I doubt if you ever have or had very much respect for anyone who doesn’t share your opinion which makes life as an adult very difficult. I’ve no interest myself in arguing with someone displaying such narrow mindedness and disregard for other people’s sensibilities so yeah, you’re dead right, cheers.

wakka12 · 22-01-2020 11:28am

splinter65 wrote: »

In what circumstances in a professional work setting do you feel obliged to share the fact that you used to be a man? I’m 40 years at work and I knew from early on that every single colleague has something quite big going on in their life
A family member or loved one in poor health or some other distress
Money problems
Relationship problems
Housing issues
Problems with kids
And people come to work primarily to earn a living as peacefully as they can.
They mix and mingle at break times and chat about current affairs, DWTS etc sports,
Most people know that if you have a personal issue that is stressing you so bad that you find it hard to function professionally that the best thing to do if at all possible is to take medical leave.
In the light of this I’m genuinely struggling to envisage a work situation where it’s ever necessary to say “I used to be a man”.
I genuinely would like to hear you on this?

Doesn't seem like your curiosity is genuine! It seems like you want to criticise and invalidate them for ever being open with their identity. Anyway what about work events or drinks or something? I hope for your sake in 40 years of work you've moved beyond sports talk at least once during your relationship with a colleague

machaseh · 22-01-2020 11:32am

I have never gotten much homophobia since I moved here from holland to ireland. In my previous job everybody knew I was gay and there were many other gay guys. No problems.

Now in my current job it was a bit more difficult. It's in it so only straight lads for the most part. Now I used to have a mslm colleague (morroccan) so I didnt really feel comfortable coming out.

After this colleague was fired (he was even put on an improvement plan for homophobia before that), I did tell my colleagues im gay and its absolutely grand.

splinter65 · 22-01-2020 12:36pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Doesn't seem like your curiosity is genuine! It seems like you want to criticise and invalidate them for ever being open with their identity. Anyway what about work events or drinks or something? I hope for your sake in 40 years of work you've moved beyond sports talk at least once during your relationship with a colleague

What’s not genuine? I’m waiting for someone to suggest a professional workplace situation where the subject of a colleagues sexual identity is part of the normal discourse. Why would it be? Any more then anyone else’s personal issues are?
I can’t even see how it would come up at a “work event”. Work is work. Sometimes it’s necessary in a crisis to explain personal circumstances to work colleagues but I can’t see how my sexual identity would ever be a crisis situation.
It’s not a question of never moving beyond sports talk. It’s a question of setting necessary boundaries in order to respect people’s privacy. Of course there are occasions when a colleagues personal business may spill over into work but look, it’s work.

Do You Find it Difficult Being Gay at Work?

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