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Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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    #3062
    randomrb
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭randomrb


    For anyone interested in this dicussion go listen to Jerry Flannery talk about this exact problem on Baz and Andrews house of Rugby podcast.

    He does an excellent job explaining where the deficits are while pointing to a potential solution using Bandon as the best example of how other counties can competet with the top paying clubs and leinster


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    #3063
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    randomrb wrote: »
    For anyone interested in this dicussion go listen to Jerry Flannery talk about this exact problem on Baz and Andrews house of Rugby podcast.

    He does an excellent job explaining where the deficits are while pointing to a potential solution using Bandon as the best example of how other counties can competet with the top paying clubs and leinster
    bandon isnt a solution as it was a fee paying school joining with a club. Non fee paying schools simply wont be able to do that
    The solution has to based around the clubs in Munster and improving coaching and facilities with them and getting best kids playing on ths regional side competing in the schools cup and looking for a second side to be added in future years. Munster cant and wont ever be able to get near replicating what leinster do and shouldn't even try. They have to do something different


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    #3064
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,600 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    bandon isnt a solution as it was a fee paying school joining with a club. Non fee paying schools simply wont be able to do that
    The solution has to based around the clubs in Munster and improving coaching and facilities with them and getting best kids playing on ths regional side competing in the schools cup and looking for a second side to be added in future years. Munster cant and wont ever be able to get near replicating what leinster do and shouldn't even try. They have to do something different


    That solution can be applied to non fee paying schools. The IRFU could (for example) put in place a coaching grant to pay full time director of rugby salary to any DOR with the correct qualifications who was coaching with a junior club and non feeing paying school.

    The IRFU shouldn't look at bandon and just expect it to happen. They should look at bandon and ask what they have to do to replicate it elsewhere


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    #3065
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    errlloyd wrote: »
    That solution can be applied to non fee paying schools. The IRFU could (for example) put in place a coaching grant to pay full time director of rugby salary to any DOR with the correct qualifications who was coaching with a junior club and non feeing paying school.

    The IRFU shouldn't look at bandon and just expect it to happen. They should look at bandon and ask what they have to do to replicate it elsewhere
    it cant and schools rugby isnt the answer. Irfu have development officers and use them but when Munster has a very good clubs set up at age grade with under 16s/18s competitions and developing them further not trying to get schools up to schools cup level especially when we have introduced a team of clubs players to the schools cup group format which started this season so the best kids not in the few rugby schools can still play at that level while also able to remain playing with their club.

    Bandon shouldn't be replicated as it isnt feasible to do so across the province and it isnt right for union to do this in favoured clubs over others. You would have kids moving to these clubs/schools and this would then hurt the other clubs/schoosl which helps who exactly?


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    #3066
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    not necessarily and what do you see as large enough a pupil population anyway?

    they dont compete regularly but there is plenty of clubs that those kids can play with and standard of club rugby and club competitions is more than good enough and getting better year on year

    partly developed. You ignoring all the time they worked in their club as well. On my phone and dont have access to computer right now but there is quite a few every year and has been rules put in to counter this in Munster....
    Some of the guys who play pro rugby currently who moved include Stephen McMahon, donncha Ryan, Joey Carbury, Conor Oliver, Chris Farrell, jj hanrahan, Jeremy loughman. Plenty others as well.

    Stephen McMahon: Not playing for Munster, how many games did he even play for Munster?
    Donncha Ryan: Fair enough but he isn't one of the 21 schools players I mentioned
    Joey Carbury: Came through the Auckland and Leinster club system, completely irrelevant to a discussion on the productivity on Munster clubs vs Munster schools.
    Conor Oliver: came through the Leinster club system, again irrelevant to a discussion on the productivity on Munster clubs vs Munster Schools.
    Chris Farrell: came through the Ulster club system
    Jeremy loughman: Again came through the Leinster club system.
    JJ Hanrahan is the one example of the 21 schools player who moved in the senior cycle

    So the point stands, of the 25 home developed Munster players, 21 came through the schools. 1 of those 21 players moved from a club in the senior cycle.

    The club game is not producing players
    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    it cant and schools rugby isnt the answer. Irfu have development officers and use them but when Munster has a very good clubs set up at age grade with under 16s/18s competitions and developing them further not trying to get schools up to schools cup level especially when we have introduced a team of clubs players to the schools cup group format which started this season so the best kids not in the few rugby schools can still play at that level while also able to remain playing with their club.

    Bandon shouldn't be replicated as it isnt feasible to do so across the province and it isnt right for union to do this in favoured clubs over others. You would have kids moving to these clubs/schools and this would then hurt the other clubs/schoosl which helps who exactly?

    There is nothing to back up anything you are saying:
    Bandon shouldn't be replicated as it isnt feasible to do so across the province and it isnt right for union to do this in favoured clubs over others. You would have kids moving to these clubs/schools and this would then hurt the other clubs/schoosl which helps who exactly?

    Why is it not feasible?

    We shouldn't be moving elite players who have a chance of going pro to the long established route to professionalism via highest level at that age group because it might hurt the competitiveness of the underage club game?


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    #3067
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Stephen McMahon: Not playing for Munster, how many games did he even play for Munster?
    Donncha Ryan: Fair enough but he isn't one of the 21 schools players I mentioned
    Joey Carbury: Came through the Auckland and Leinster club system, completely irrelevant to a discussion on the productivity on Munster clubs vs Munster schools.
    Conor Oliver: came through the Leinster club system, again irrelevant to a discussion on the productivity on Munster clubs vs Munster Schools.
    Chris Farrell: came through the Ulster club system
    Jeremy loughman: Again came through the Leinster club system.
    JJ Hanrahan is the one example of the 21 schools player who moved in the senior cycle

    So the point stands, of the 25 home developed Munster players, 21 came through the schools. 1 of those 21 players moved from a club in the senior cycle.

    The club game is not producing players

    There is nothing to back up anything you are saying:

    Why is it not feasible?

    We shouldn't be moving elite players who have a chance of going pro to the long established route to professionalism via highest level at that age group because it might hurt the competitiveness of the underage club game?
    moving kids to schools is just narrowing the player pool and of the many who do move most dont get anywhere near going pro. It mainly helps the odd school win or do better in the overhyped schools cups.
    We shouldn't be moving kids as we should be protecting the club game and widening the player pool.
    Carbery moved to Ireland age 10. New Zealand wont have played that significant a role in his pro rugby career.
    The Munster clubs system is producing pro rugby players and any who attend limerick schools will also be playing club rugby extensively.
    Munster cant rely on a schools system. Numbers are not there. It has to use the clubs. I've been involved in club game coaching, committee level. What's your involvement?

    Why isnt it feasible? Because the kind of costs like that make it put of reach/completely unrealistic for nearly all clubs
    Moving kids to the small number of rugby schools isnt going to develop the sport more. If you want to develop more players to pro level you work with clubs to enhance what they provide. You widen the base. Expecting many kids to just move to a small number of schools is just narrowing the player pool and doesnt help the sport in the long term.


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    #3068
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    moving kids to schools is just narrowing the player pool and of the many who do move most dont get anywhere near going pro. It mainly helps the odd school win or do better in the overhyped schools cups.
    We shouldn't be moving kids as we should be protecting the club game and widening the player pool.
    Carbery moved to Ireland age 10. New Zealand wont have played that significant a role in his pro rugby career.
    The Munster clubs system is producing pro rugby players and any who attend limerick schools will also be playing club rugby extensively.
    Munster cant rely on a schools system. Numbers are not there. It has to use the clubs. I've been involved in club game coaching, committee level. What's your involvement?

    Why isnt it feasible? Because the kind of costs like that make it put of reach/completely unrealistic for nearly all clubs
    Moving kids to the small number of rugby schools isnt going to develop the sport more. If you want to develop more players to pro level you work with clubs to enhance what they provide. You widen the base. Expecting many kids to just move to a small number of schools is just narrowing the player pool and doesnt help the sport in the long term.

    Can we deal in facts. 21 of the 25 home developed players came though the schools system. The clubs are not producing players. In light of this most of your post is utter conjecture:
    The Munster clubs system is producing pro rugby players

    Who?

    In the senior set up we have; James Cronin, Tommy O'Donnell, Jack O'Donoghue and Darren O'Shea. Their average age is 29, the youngest of the group turns 26 next month. Good Munster players but none are really international standard, as evidenced by their combined 18 caps.

    On top of that you want to count Fineen Wycherley and JJ Hanrahan for some reason? Both completed full senior cycles at established rugby schools but according to you shouldn't count as schools players?


    On the other hand you have 21 players who came through the Munster schools system including established Irish internationals and Lions like O'Mahony, Earls and Murray.
    Any who attend limerick schools will also be playing club rugby extensively.

    I would say all of the 25 home developed players have played club rugby at some time in their life. I'm not saying the clubs have no role, just that players not going through the schools senior cup cycle they have poor and inconsistent outcomes on the way to professionalism.
    Munster cant rely on a schools system. Numbers are not there.

    But Munster are relying on a schools system as the clubs aren't producing professional players. There are a grand total of 4 players in the Munster squad who came through the Munster club game without any time in a schools senior cup team. You can't rely on that


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    #3069
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭slingerz


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Can we deal in facts. 21 of the 25 home developed players came though the schools system. The clubs are not producing players. In light of this most of your post is utter conjecture:



    Who?

    In the senior set up we have; James Cronin, Tommy O'Donnell, Jack O'Donoghue and Darren O'Shea. Their average age is 29, the youngest of the group turns 26 next month. Good Munster players but none are really international standard, as evidenced by their combined 18 caps.

    On top of that you want to count Fineen Wycherley and JJ Hanrahan for some reason? Both completed full senior cycles at established rugby schools but according to you shouldn't count as schools players?


    On the other hand you have 21 players who came through the Munster schools system including established Irish internationals and Lions like O'Mahony, Earls and Murray.



    I would say all of the 25 home developed players have played club rugby at some time in their life. I'm not saying the clubs have no role, just that players not going through the schools senior cup cycle they have poor and inconsistent outcomes on the way to professionalism.



    But Munster are relying on a schools system as the clubs aren't producing professional players. There are a grand total of 4 players in the Munster squad who came through the Munster club game without any time in a schools senior cup team. You can't rely on that


    List the 21/25 players there so


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    #3070
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,041 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    slingerz wrote: »
    List the 21/25 players there so
    He listed the four. Surely you can work out who the 21 are from that.


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    #3071
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Can we deal in facts. 21 of the 25 home developed players came though the schools system. The clubs are not producing players. In light of this most of your post is utter conjecture:



    Who?

    In the senior set up we have; James Cronin, Tommy O'Donnell, Jack O'Donoghue and Darren O'Shea. Their average age is 29, the youngest of the group turns 26 next month. Good Munster players but none are really international standard, as evidenced by their combined 18 caps.

    On top of that you want to count Fineen Wycherley and JJ Hanrahan for some reason? Both completed full senior cycles at established rugby schools but according to you shouldn't count as schools players?


    On the other hand you have 21 players who came through the Munster schools system including established Irish internationals and Lions like O'Mahony, Earls and Murray.



    I would say all of the 25 home developed players have played club rugby at some time in their life. I'm not saying the clubs have no role, just that players not going through the schools senior cup cycle they have poor and inconsistent outcomes on the way to professionalism.



    But Munster are relying on a schools system as the clubs aren't producing professional players. There are a grand total of 4 players in the Munster squad who came through the Munster club game without any time in a schools senior cup team. You can't rely on that

    Fineen Whycherley moved to Roscrea in fifth year after playing Munster Clubs and club rugby in West Cork. He's not a schools developed player


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    #3072
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭slingerz


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    He listed the four. Surely you can work out who the 21 are from that.

    His 4 are James Cronin, Tommy O'Donnell, Jack O'Donoghue and Darren O'Shea. Wycherley, O'Byrne, Coombes x 2, Hanrahan, Hodnett, Liam O'Connor, Sweetnam, Sean O'Connor were all either imported into the schools for senior cycle or didnt go to A schools. Keith Earls wasnt a regular at Munchins either.

    To disregard the development of players up until they have completed junior cycle is folly as they will have developed through the clubs until then.

    Munster Schools simply do not compare to what is happening in Leinster schools. Only 2/3 A schools in the biggest, most populated county in the province can tell you that. with 4/5 A schools in Limerick and then Rockwell/Glenstal is just showcases the apples vs. oranges comparison to Leinster schools


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    #3073
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    slingerz wrote: »
    His 4 are James Cronin, Tommy O'Donnell, Jack O'Donoghue and Darren O'Shea. Wycherley, O'Byrne, Coombes x 2, Hanrahan, Hodnett, Liam O'Connor, Sweetnam, Sean O'Connor were all either imported into the schools for senior cycle or didnt go to A schools. Keith Earls wasnt a regular at Munchins either.

    To disregard the development of players up until they have completed junior cycle is folly as they will have developed through the clubs until then.

    Munster Schools simply do not compare to what is happening in Leinster schools. Only 2/3 A schools in the biggest, most populated county in the province can tell you that. with 4/5 A schools in Limerick and then Rockwell/Glenstal is just showcases the apples vs. oranges comparison to Leinster schools

    You are missing the point again. I am not saying clubs are irrelevant. I am saying that players who don't play senior cup generally don't go on to be professional rugby players.

    Here are the 21 players:
    Archer CBC
    Kilcoyne  Ardscoil
    O'Connor CBC
    Ryan  CBC
    Scott  PBC
    O'Byrne PBC
    Niall Scannell PBC
    Holland CBC
    Seán O'Connor Rockwell
    Coombes Bandon
    O'Mahony PBC
    Casey Ardscoil
    Cronin Castletroy
    Murray Munchins
    Hanrahan Rockwell
    Daly PBC
    Goggin  Munchins
    Rory Scannell PBC
    Earls Munchins
    Nash Crescent
    Sweetnam Bandon
    theVersatile wrote: »
    Fineen Whycherley moved to Roscrea in fifth year after playing Munster Clubs and club rugby in West Cork. He's not a schools developed player

    There is a reason someone would move halfway up the country at 16 to board in a rugby school. The club game doesn't offer the experience, development or opportunity the schools game does.


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    #3074
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    snotboogie wrote: »
    You are missing the point again. I am not saying clubs are irrelevant. I am saying that players who don't play senior cup generally don't go on to be professional rugby players.

    Here are the 21 players:
    Archer CBC
    Kilcoyne  Ardscoil
    O'Connor CBC
    Ryan  CBC
    Scott  PBC
    O'Byrne PBC
    Niall Scannell PBC
    Holland CBC
    Seán O'Connor Rockwell
    Coombes Bandon
    O'Mahony PBC
    Casey Ardscoil
    Cronin Castletroy
    Murray Munchins
    Hanrahan Rockwell
    Daly PBC
    Goggin  Munchins
    Rory Scannell PBC
    Earls Munchins
    Nash Crescent
    Sweetnam Bandon

    There is a reason someone would move halfway up the country at 16 to board in a rugby school. The club game doesn't offer the experience, development or opportunity the schools game does.
    or they are offered a scholarship and that's primary reason they do it. Moving schools cant be seen as good thing especially for the log term development of the sport as it will not help the sport be better or stronger in the log term.

    O Byrne stopped playi rugby in PBC after junior cycle and went back playing with highfield. He won an all Ireland under 18 title with Highfield in 2009 with James Cronin...
    Earl's even only moved to munchins for senior cycle. Had been in Nessans. Kids who dont play schools dont go peo as much because of not being seen enough and that's changing especially with changes to club competitions.
    And boarding can be for a lot of reasons other than simply rugby.


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    #3075
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Our pool permutations (in terms of getting 2nd, rather than qualifying for qf) are fairly clear but interesting to see them visualised like this. https://twitter.com/EsportifIntel/status/1217787525198229511?s=19


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    #3076
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Our pool permutations (in terms of getting 2nd, rather than qualifying for qf) are fairly clear but interesting to see them visualised like this.

    If Saracens are in as much trouble as we're being led to believe, they might not be in the best frame of mind to beat Racing on Sunday.

    So maybe Munster hammering Ospreys might actually see them into second place and through to the QFs...


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    #3077
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Reports now saying that if Sarries were to be relegated they wouldn't be allowed to play in the Champions Cup for two years as they're not competing in a feeder league for the competition.

    So with the drama around the relegation, and now this nugget thrown in, there's a good chance the entire organisation might just throw the Racing game....

    Or else it could fuel them to try and put in a massive performance.


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    #3078
    bennyl10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭bennyl10


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Reports now saying that if Sarries were to be relegated they wouldn't be allowed to play in the Champions Cup for two years as they're not competing in a feeder league for the competition.

    So with the drama around the relegation, and now this nugget thrown in, there's a good chance the entire organisation might just throw the Racing game....

    Or else it could fuel them to try and put in a massive performance.

    they're gone full strength


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    #3079
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    bennyl10 wrote: »
    they're gone full strength


    Team would have been picked before all this relegation stuff broke. The question is what affect this mornings meeting will have on the players attitude on Sunday. Probably none, but if they've been told that most of them need to look for a new club for next season, their heads might not be in the right place.


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    #3080
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Former Former wrote: »
    If Saracens are in as much trouble as we're being led to believe, they might not be in the best frame of mind to beat Racing on Sunday.

    So maybe Munster hammering Ospreys might actually see them into second place and through to the QFs...

    Could go other way too but yeah they're the 2 results which matter. If the other 2 results happen then we have a chance but Racing result is the deciding one


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    #3081
    schmoo2k
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭schmoo2k


    Good time to poach a temporary 10 for Munster (that would take a dent out of the Sarries pay bill)?


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    #3082
    Kevski
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Kevski


    schmoo2k wrote: »
    Good time to poach a temporary 10 for Munster (that would take a dent out of the Sarries pay bill)?

    Or Munster could, you know, not go for an overseas player and give game time to a younger player instead?


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    #3083
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Kevski wrote: »
    Or Munster could, you know, not go for an overseas player and give game time to a younger player instead?


    Don't worry your pretty little head, Ben Healy is going to get plenty of minutes over the next 6-7 games.


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    #3084
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Team our in case anyone missed it. Munster: Mike Haley; Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Rory Scannell, Calvin Nash; JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer; Fineen Wycherley, Billy Holland; Peter O’Mahony (C), Jack O’Donoghue, CJ Stander.

    Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, John Ryan, Arno Botha, Jack O’Sullivan, Craig Casey, Ben Healy, Dan Goggin.


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    #3085
    Kevski
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Kevski


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Don't worry your pretty little head, Ben Healy is going to get plenty of minutes over the next 6-7 games.

    I’m not worried at all - delighted to see Healy getting gametime.

    Cheers for the compliment btw ;)


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    #3086
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,178 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Had to go as strong as possible really. If there's any sniff of qualification, Munster cannot risk not achieving the BP.

    The Ospreys selection is full strength; it's probably their strongest selection of the season that I've seen. AWJ, Davies, Tipuric all in the starting pack for the first time this season.


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    #3087
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Munster A team named
    https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2020/01/17/team-named-munster-a-side-to-face-connacht-a-2


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    #3088
    bennyl10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭bennyl10


    Just to clarify for this weekend

    If Lyon and sale both win tomorrow(or Glasgow fail to get a BP)

    Racing and Munster(Bp) both win

    Munster are through?


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    #3089
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    bennyl10 wrote: »
    Just to clarify for this weekend

    If Lyon and sale both win tomorrow(or Glasgow fail to get a BP)

    Racing and Munster(Bp) both win

    Munster are through?

    Yes provided Saracens don't get a lbp and a tbp


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    #3090
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,236 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Yes provided Saracens don't get a lbp and a tbp

    And Munster get 5 points against Ospreys.


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    #3091
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,015 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    And if all that happens I presume Munster play Leinster in the QF?




    Please happen.


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