Changing title with 2 deceased parents and missing probate for one

YogiBoy · 13-01-2020 09:08PM #1

Hi Grateful if anyone can help with this query.
My mother passed away two years ago and I managed to get probate done myself. I am her only daughter and the house was bequeathed to me.
Now I want to sell the house and need to get the title changed.
The house is jointly owned by my father and mother.
My father's probate was done 10 years ago, I believe ... that is what my mother said but I have now no documentation or evidence.
I don't know if a "withdrawal of name" application was ever made on the house.

I went in to see the PRAI about changing the title. The process looks dead easy to do myself - without a solicitor - if straightforward.... but otherwise a minefield it seems if any complications like this one.
It seems the PRAI would need to see either the "withdrawal of name" or the probate of both parents. But I don't know how to go about getting my father's side of the papers.

I am hoping to avoid solicitor fees for something so dumb ! (By the way how much might a solicitor charge for changing title in this case ... in addition to the PRAI fee of about 130 euro ?)

THanks for any advice

holly_johnson · 14-01-2020 07:59AM

If everything was left to your mother when your father died, there may have been no probate done for him at all. When my mother died in 2016, everything went to my Dad so there was no need for probate. When my Dad died last year I executed his probate with no issues. Once probate was granted I bought his house, which was in both of their names. I had no problems transferring the title to me.

I suppose a caveat to the above is that my mother had no assets in her own name. The estate was just the family home & joint bank accounts.

YogiBoy · 15-01-2020 12:22PM

OK thanks for that.
My circumstances seem to be the same as yours and yet matters are different.
So I discovered through an old photocopy that I uncovered that probate was taken out for my father (luckily I found the date!).
Not a lot of assets were declared and the house was not declared it seems, and yet the ownership remained as joint ownership...

So i was told by the PRAI that I need to get a "court office copy" of my father's probate which I have requested from the Probate office... (15 euro).

Then they say that I need to get a "Withdrawal of Name" affidavit for my father
Form 47
https://www.prai.ie/download/all-forms/lr-forms/transmissions/Land%20Registry%20Form%2047.doc

And then it seems I will be free to apply for a change in title. The PRAI don't have the power to tell you what to do ... "they only receive applications" they say. And there is a bewildering variety of forms and cases.
=>
Makes work for the solicitors !
My case is simple however and I think the application should be very simple... if I can just figure out the right form to fill out.

The whole process of probate and transmission is byzantine and grossly inefficient. Something the next government could work on!

Peregrinus · 16-01-2020 04:54AM

There's a form of joint ownership of property called a joint tenancy. Under a joint tenancy, two people own property on terms that they each have a 50% share so long as they both live, but when one of them dies then the other owns 100% of the property. Transfer of the deceased's share to the survivor is automatic in death; the half-share in the property never form's part of the deceased's estate and you don't need to take out a grant of probate in relation to it.

(The other form of joint ownership is called a tenancy-in-common. Under a tenancy-in-common any number of people can own equal or unequal shares in the property, and each co-owner's share will form part of his estate when he dies and will go to his heirs.)

A married couple who co-own a house nearly always do so as joint tenants. If this was the case with your parents, then (so far as the house was concerned) there was no need for a grant of probate on your father's death; his death certificate alone should have been sufficient for an application to the Land Registry to register your mother as sole owner - and should still be.

YogiBoy · 17-01-2020 12:40AM

OK so that explains matters. Well it seems that I paid 15 euro (a small price) for nothing!

Any ideas on what form to fill out now to register the change in title... the PRAI people aren't allowed to tell me, but did give me a paper and a few hints where to look... but it does appear (unnecessarily) complicated!

randomrb · 17-01-2020 09:25AM

YogiBoy wrote: »

OK so that explains matters. Well it seems that I paid 15 euro (a small price) for nothing!

Any ideas on what form to fill out now to register the change in title... the PRAI people aren't allowed to tell me, but did give me a paper and a few hints where to look... but it does appear (unnecessarily) complicated!

ownership of property is on of the biggest areas of law that affects nearly every single person at some stage in their lives, There are a myriad of different ways things are done and possible scenarios. Its not "unnecessarily complicated" its just an area of law that can be complex due to the amount of considerations, thats why legal professions exists....

YogiBoy · 22-01-2020 04:01PM

Let me just add that there seem to some legal codes and public administrations that are far more efficient e.g France that I have had experience with. There are some too that are far worse e.g Greece with very negative and persistent consequences for the economy. Aping the UK code is not the best... time for more fundamental reforms.

Claw Hammer · 22-01-2020 05:36PM

YogiBoy wrote: »

Let me just add that there seem to some legal codes and public administrations that are far more efficient e.g France that I have had experience with. There are some too that are far worse e.g Greece with very negative and persistent consequences for the economy. Aping the UK code is not the best... time for more fundamental reforms.

The problem with reform is that it takes a very long time. Not all titles are registered yet, 130 years after the Land Registry was set up. It will likley be another 130 years before all titles are registered.

Dolbhad · 25-01-2020 09:50PM

I presume you have a solicitor dealing with the sale of the property - have them fill out the form and remove your fathers name from title.

You’ll need a solicitor to witness the signature of the form anyway so you can’t avoid them. It’s usually form 47 but that’s where the surviving spouse is filling out the form. It may have to be adapted for you, as per rep, to fill it out.

Changing title with 2 deceased parents and missing probate for one

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