Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

end of the road · 22-12-2019 05:48PM

Isambard wrote: »

Gort is pretty comparable....does it have a half hour service? In other parts of the country....does Mallow?

There's no way round it.... there are dozens of examples of towns deserving a better service than Tuam. Just around Cork, I can cite Ballincollig, Blarney Carrigaline.

the people there need to campaign for that, it's not the fault of other parts of the country somewhere else doesn't get the service they deserve.

Isambard wrote: »

People really need to get the "because it's there (or was once) " mentality out of their heads and start looking at priorities and cost/benefit.

the it's there or once was there mentality is actually a good thing in thecontext of suburban towns.
it means such towns can be focused on for development where and when the cities are at capacity, meaning good, railbased public transport can be developed so as to make the cities car free where possible.
ireland cannot afford to be continuing to spend billions catering to single person cars and on motor ways, it's just not sustainable and we won't be able to maintain it all.

Muckyboots · 22-12-2019 06:16PM

end of the road wrote: »

well no, that's not what he quoted, his post did not say that Cllr Gerry Murray misrepresented anything, but rather his comments were misrepresented.

Gerry Murray said that in order to qualify for greenway funding that the line needed to go through an "Area of Outstanding Beauty". This is completely false. Ten years ago he'd have gotten away with this statement unchallenged. I'm delighted there is a Minister for Greenways ready and willing to call him out.

ohographite · 22-12-2019 06:27PM

Isambard wrote: »

Gort is pretty comparable....does it have a half hour service? In other parts of the country....does Mallow?

There's no way round it.... there are dozens of examples of towns deserving a better service than Tuam. Just around Cork, I can cite Ballincollig, Blarney Carrigaline. People really need to get the "because it's there (or was once) " mentality out of their heads and start looking at priorities and cost/benefit.

In fairness, Gort is much smaller than Tuam.
Gort has less than 3000 people but Tuam has over 8000.
Mallow is connected to Cork by trains running at least every hour, and half hourly at peak times.

ShaneC1600 · 22-12-2019 06:31PM

Are the plans for the loop in oranmore progressing does anybody know? Hopefully its just the start of some useful investment in Galway followed by double tracking all the way out to Athenry.

end of the road · 22-12-2019 07:03PM

Muckyboots wrote: »

Gerry Murray said that in order to qualify for greenway funding that the line needed to go through an "Area of Outstanding Beauty". This is completely false. Ten years ago he'd have gotten away with this statement unchallenged. I'm delighted there is a Minister for Greenways ready and willing to call him out.

whether he is correct or not, ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on greenways, and these need to be areas of outstanding natural beauty, and urban cycle ways, both which are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.
just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such amenities which are unused and which the council has to take money from other actually used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

Greaney · 22-12-2019 07:32PM

Accidentally wrote: »

Ballyglunin has a bus service on the N63, 5 minutes away. It doesn't get anything more than that because to be honest, it's townland in the middle of nowhere, where very few people live. Those that do live there are primarily in one off houses, scattered across the area.

There is very little demand from Tuam to Dublin, and most of it is trying to get to the airport, so rail is a waste of time

That's why park & ride is a thing. I don't imagine the bus stop has a car park, but if Ballyglunin was open it would be a park and ride for some, and indeed, planning the growth of Ballyglunin could be on the cards. The train is about the future of planning and where people can live, as well as the current need, which we know from the first phase of the WRC takes time to develop.

Isambard · 22-12-2019 07:40PM

ohographite wrote: »

In fairness, Gort is much smaller than Tuam.
Gort has less than 3000 people but Tuam has over 8000.
Mallow is connected to Cork by trains running at least every hour, and half hourly at peak times.

OK then, does Ennis have a half hourly service to Limerick? Whichever way you slice it, Tuam with 8000 odd persons does not warrant special treatment. A half hourly or hourly service is preposterous. The guy knows this, he's just being controversial,.

Greaney · 22-12-2019 07:41PM

ohographite wrote: »

In fairness, Gort is much smaller than Tuam.
Gort has less than 3000 people but Tuam has over 8000.
Mallow is connected to Cork by trains running at least every hour, and half hourly at peak times.

According to the last census Tuam has the second largest commuter numbers working in Galway, after Oranmore. 50% of Galway Citys' workers live in the county so the need for better transport links in the future is going to be huge, alas in our governments eyes, not urgent.

I was astonished by these numbers...
https://connachttribune.ie/tuam-commuters-abandon-the-car-to-avoid-traffic-tailbacks-200/

Muckyboots · 22-12-2019 09:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

whether he is correct or not, ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on greenways, and these need to be areas of outstanding natural beauty, and urban cycle ways, both which are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.
just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such amenities which are unused and which the council has to take money from other actually used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

A Business Case is one of the criteria for greenway funding.

ezstreet5 · 22-12-2019 09:41PM

westtip wrote: »

Please see attached - it is one of the slides I presented to EY the consulting company that has written the Western Rail Corridor Review none of us are allowed to see.

I'm not sure what this is, or who prepared it, but it appears to be just a list of towns and their populations, followed by a conclusion floating in midair. It is not an objective analysis or forecast of travel demand.

At one point (about a year ago) Minister Ciarán Cannon was quoting a cost/benefit score of 100/6 for reopening the WRC, compared to a 100/80 action threshold. This statistic was traced back to a reference Leo Varadkar made in the Dáil on 14/02/2018 to a prior cost/benefit appraisal. See: p. 587 of https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/debateRecord/dail/2018-02-14/debate/mul@/main.pdf. But in fact, there was no such report (please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, the most recent appraisal I can find is the 2012 AECOM/Goodbody Report. That report scored the Athenry-Tuam line at 100/61, and concluded at Section 14.10:

"A number of new rail lines have been proposed by various interests. Of these, a sketch appraisal indicates that only the Athenry-Tuam line merits further consideration, taking account of the performance of Phase 1 of the Western Rail corridor between Ennis and Athenry. None of the others perform sufficiently well to be further considered."

It's my understanding that ridership is greatly improved on Phase 1 since 2012. And my takeaways are:

1. Politicians are prone to be really poor sources for trustworthy data.
2. The current rail review is warranted and is not a waste of money.

ShaneC1600 · 22-12-2019 10:20PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'm not sure what this is, or who prepared it, but it appears to be just a list of towns and their populations, followed by a conclusion floating in midair. It is not an objective analysis or forecast of travel demand.

At one point (about a year ago) Minister Ciarán Cannon was quoting a cost/benefit score of 100/6 for reopening the WRC, compared to a 100/80 action threshold. This statistic was traced back to a reference Leo Varadkar made in the Dáil on 14/02/2018 to a prior cost/benefit appraisal. See: p. 587 of https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/debateRecord/dail/2018-02-14/debate/mul@/main.pdf. But in fact, there was no such report (please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, the most recent appraisal I can find is the 2012 AECOM/Goodbody Report. That report scored the Athenry-Tuam line at 100/61, and concluded at Section 14.10:

"A number of new rail lines have been proposed by various interests. Of these, a sketch appraisal indicates that only the Athenry-Tuam line merits further consideration, taking account of the performance of Phase 1 of the Western Rail corridor between Ennis and Athenry. None of the others perform sufficiently well to be further considered."

It's my understanding that ridership is greatly improved on Phase 1 since 2012. And my takeaways are:

1. Politicians are prone to be really poor sources for trustworthy data.
2. The current rail review is warranted and is not a waste of money.

I have requested this report and figures to be referenced for an age now, never could get an answer! Those figures are used constantly against the railway, right or wrong!

end of the road · 22-12-2019 11:41PM

Isambard wrote: »

OK then, does Ennis have a half hourly service to Limerick? Whichever way you slice it, Tuam with 8000 odd persons does not warrant special treatment. A half hourly or hourly service is preposterous. The guy knows this, he's just being controversial,.

incorrect, i'm deadly serious.
other services being not what they should is not the fault of others, it's the fault of the powers that be.
tuam getting a proper half hourly outer suburban service if it was to reopen wouldn't be special treatment, it would be simple proper operation for an outer suburban service.

Isambard · 23-12-2019 03:46AM

Athery to Tuam is roughly 25 km. To that and back again in half an hour on a single line would entail an average of 100km/h. It's not physically possible.

end of the road · 23-12-2019 03:54AM

Isambard wrote: »

Athery to Tuam is roughly 25 km. To that and back again in half an hour on a single line would entail an average of 100km/h. It's not physically possible.

which is where double tracking athenry to galway would come in, something that is needed anyway regardless of whether there is a reopening to tuam or not, as dublin to galway should be increasing to hourly.

23-12-2019 04:48AM

There's some amount of mulled wine being consumed by some on this thread lately, it's the only explanation

Isambard · 23-12-2019 10:01AM

end of the road wrote: »

which is where double tracking athenry to galway would come in, something that is needed anyway regardless of whether there is a reopening to tuam or not, as dublin to galway should be increasing to hourly.

double tracking there wouldn't help the branch. It would still not be possible to do a 50km return journey including acceleration and braking time and changing ends at the terminus in half an hour.

I can't understand why a very few are looking for this service when the maximum benefit for a much larger number of people would be gained from improving this main line and others and yet it seems no one at all is clamouring for this.

Isambard · 23-12-2019 10:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

There's some amount of mulled being consumed by some on this thread lately, it's the only explanation

bizarre isn't it. I put it down to a ,lack of knowledge of railways

westtip · 23-12-2019 10:16AM

Sligo eye wrote: »

It’s not April 1st is it? Could have sworn we haven’t had Christmas yet.

Indeed and nor have we seen the Rail Report sitting on Minister Ross's desk that he won't release and we certainly won't get that for Christmas. Half a million Euro for a report which one TD for Galway East demanded as a red line issue after the last election, Sean Canney are you demanding the Rail Report? Sligo Eye and others who snipe at the views of Mr Brendan Quinn I am sure he actually couldn't give a flying F***k what you think, frankly I think he is getting tired of it all. He doesn't by the way advocate closing phase one in fact he wants to see a parallel greenway put in alongside it, which he would also like to see in the unlikely event of phase 2 being built. Re phase 2 his views are clear, build the greenway protect the route and you never know we might get both in future years.

However, I do know having spoke to him (sic) that he will accept the full results of the Rail Reveiw from EY Consulting and if it says the railway is needed build the bloody thing. I also know he happened to meet and make a presentation to EY consulting and he feels a strong recommendation to build the railway is not likely based on the reception he got from EY consulting, but he might be wrong and is prepared to accept that; If there is a recommendation to build the line however it would have to be unequivocal to justify the investment; what he does think is happening is the report is being held back deliberately so it does not emabarrass Sean Canney TD before the election, what Mr Quinn is concerned about is that the report might be "fudged" a bit like the Greenway Strategy was by the Minister, remember that one, the first drafts of the report written by the Department of Transport mandarins clearly identified the route as a greenway, hey ho or should I say ho ho ho for the time of year in it.

Onwards and upwards to 2020....Happy Christmas one and all Railway. Greenway and everyone who contributes to this ongoing nonsense. Westtip also know as BQ.

Quackster · 23-12-2019 10:22AM

end of the road wrote: »

whether he is correct or not, ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on greenways, and these need to be areas of outstanding natural beauty, and urban cycle ways, both which are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.
just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such amenities which are unused and which the council has to take money from other actually used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

Whether anyone is correct or not, Ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on railways, and these need to be areas of highest population catchment and density, where they are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.

Just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such railways which are underused and which the state has to take money from other actually well-used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

Sligo eye · 23-12-2019 10:26AM

westtip wrote: »

Indeed and nor have we seen the Rail Report sitting on Minister Ross's desk that he won't release and we certainly won't get that for Christmas. Half a million Euro for a report the great advocated of the railway and TD for Galway East demanded as a red line issue after the last election. Sligo Eye and others who snipe at the views of Mr Brendan Quinn I am sure he actually couldn't give a flying F***k what you think, frankly I think he is getting tired of it all. He doesn't by the way advocate closing phase one in fact he wants to see a parallel greenway put in alongside it, which he would also like to see in the unlikely event of phase 2 being built. Re phase 2 his views are clear, build the greenway protect the route and you never know we might get both in future years.

However, I do know having spoke to him (sic) that he will accept the full results of the Rail Reveiw from EY Consulting and if it says the railway is needed build the bloody thing. I also know he happened to meet and make a presentation to EY consulting and he feels a strong recommendation to build the railway is not likely based on the reception he got from EY consulting, but he might be wrong and is prepared to accept that; If there is a recommendation to build the line however it would have to be unequivocal to justify the investment; what he does think is happening is the report is being held back deliberately so it does not emabarrass Sean Canney TD before the election, what Mr Quinn is concerned about is that the report might be "fudged" a bit like the Greenway Strategy was by the Minister, remember that one, the first drafts of the report written by the Department of Transport mandarins clearly identified the route as a greenway, hey ho or should I say ho ho ho for the time of year in it.

Onwards and upwards to 2020....Happy Christmas one and all Railway. Greenway and everyone who contributes to this ongoing nonsense. Westtip also know as BQ.

Happy Christmas to you too Westtip, enjoy the mince pies and mulled wine and let’s see what 2020 brings. I suspect we all may well be bashing away on the keyboards in the same way this time next year!

ShaneC1600 · 23-12-2019 10:45AM

Isambard wrote: »

bizarre isn't it. I put it down to a ,lack of knowledge of railways

Explain why 60mph is not possible? What is the restriction?

end of the road · 23-12-2019 01:52PM

Isambard wrote: »

double tracking there wouldn't help the branch. It would still not be possible to do a 50km return journey including acceleration and braking time and changing ends at the terminus in half an hour.

I can't understand why a very few are looking for this service when the maximum benefit for a much larger number of people would be gained from improving this main line and others and yet it seems no one at all is clamouring for this.

the thread is about the western rail corridor, therefore that is what will be discussed rather then other lines.
people are looking for improvements to other lines
.

Quackster wrote: »

Whether anyone is correct or not, Ireland still has to prioritise where it spends any money on railways, and these need to be areas of highest population catchment and density, where they are guaranteed to actually bring a return on investment.

Just throwing them in anywhere and everywhere, may potentially mean we end up with a number of such railways which are underused and which the state has to take money from other actually well-used services to maintain them, which benefits nobody.

just as well nobody is arguing to throw railways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to need them.

Quackster · 23-12-2019 02:53PM

end of the road wrote: »

just as well nobody is arguing to throw railways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to need them.

Just as well nobody is arguing to throw greenways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to really benefit from them!

Isambard is entirely correct though. Athey/Tuam is so far down the rail priority list that even if you trebled or quadrupled investment in rail (and I am absolutely adamant that needs to be done), there are so many much more important rail projects that would absorb all that investment. And then some.

Everyone needs to be realistic that the line north of Tuam will never ever reopen and allow the greenway to proceed on this section ASAP.

Isambard · 23-12-2019 03:06PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Explain why 60mph is not possible? What is the restriction?

It's not the maximum speed that counts, it's the line occupancy. You can have only one train in a section at a time. In the case of a single line 25km long, that means it has to run to the terminus and then you can have either another train follow it once it's at the terminus or it (or another train) can return.

The alternative is to have a crossing loop half way along, which would help but still is an obstacle with one train having to wait for another before proceding.

You can have as high a maximum speed as you like, but trains take time to accelerate and brake which reduces
your average speed a lot, and also the driver has to change ends which further reduces the average speed on a return journey.

ezstreet5 · 23-12-2019 10:04PM

westtip wrote: »

Indeed and nor have we seen the Rail Report sitting on Minister Ross's desk that he won't release and we certainly won't get that for Christmas. Half a million Euro for a report which one TD for Galway East demanded as a red line issue after the last election, Sean Canney are you demanding the Rail Report? Sligo Eye and others who snipe at the views of Mr Brendan Quinn I am sure he actually couldn't give a flying F***k what you think, frankly I think he is getting tired of it all. He doesn't by the way advocate closing phase one in fact he wants to see a parallel greenway put in alongside it, which he would also like to see in the unlikely event of phase 2 being built. Re phase 2 his views are clear, build the greenway protect the route and you never know we might get both in future years.

However, I do know having spoke to him (sic) that he will accept the full results of the Rail Reveiw from EY Consulting and if it says the railway is needed build the bloody thing. I also know he happened to meet and make a presentation to EY consulting and he feels a strong recommendation to build the railway is not likely based on the reception he got from EY consulting, but he might be wrong and is prepared to accept that; If there is a recommendation to build the line however it would have to be unequivocal to justify the investment; what he does think is happening is the report is being held back deliberately so it does not emabarrass Sean Canney TD before the election, what Mr Quinn is concerned about is that the report might be "fudged" a bit like the Greenway Strategy was by the Minister, remember that one, the first drafts of the report written by the Department of Transport mandarins clearly identified the route as a greenway, hey ho or should I say ho ho ho for the time of year in it.

Onwards and upwards to 2020....Happy Christmas one and all Railway. Greenway and everyone who contributes to this ongoing nonsense. Westtip also know as BQ.

Ah. OK. This post (strangely) clarifies a lot for me regarding the political discourse surrounding the WRC reactivation. From it, I was able to locate the presentation that Minister Ciarán Cannon and anor. apparently made to EY-DKM Economic Advisory Services (the consultancy preparing the 'rail review'). Overall, there is nothing in that presentation worth remarking upon, except for one statistic on p. 6. It states that in 2018, 137,784 passengers traveled between Ennis and Athenry (which sounds reasonably accurate to me).

This equates to 377 passengers per day (every day of the year). Yet, Minister Cannon states the following to the media just a few weeks later:

“If we forensically examine the figures, the numbers using the Athenry to Ennis section average out at 39 people per day. That is horrendous. It is not sustainable,” Minister Cannon said. Emphasis Added. See: https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/ So Minister Cannon cannot be correct. He seems to be low by almost an order of magnitude!

Also, umbrage was taken at the allegation that there appears to be a campaign to shut down Phase 1 of the WRC. However, we see Minister Cannon stating as early as 2017:

'A Galway East T.D and Junior Minister says the Ennis to Athenry rail route may not be viable into the future when the M17 Gort to Tuam motorway opens.
Minister Ciaran Cannon says a decision on closing the rail route can’t be made until a full review is complete.
...
Galway East Minister of State, Ciaran Cannon says, a greenway might be a better opportunity for the Ennis to Athenry rail line.' See: https://connachttribune.ie/galway-junior-minister-says-athenry-ennis-rail-route-may-not-be-viable/

Minister Cannon! Please stop your efforts to eliminate existing rail service in the West and to prevent potential new services! And I wish you a Happy Christmas with this video of Ciarian's Cannon in

https://www.facebook.com/WalthersTrains/videos/459687704979179/

ShaneC1600 · 23-12-2019 11:15PM

Isambard wrote: »

It's not the maximum speed that counts, it's the line occupancy. You can have only one train in a section at a time. In the case of a single line 25km long, that means it has to run to the terminus and then you can have either another train follow it once it's at the terminus or it (or another train) can return.

The alternative is to have a crossing loop half way along, which would help but still is an obstacle with one train having to wait for another before proceding.

You can have as high a maximum speed as you like, but trains take time to accelerate and brake which reduces
your average speed a lot, and also the driver has to change ends which further reduces the average speed on a return journey.

Ok I understand how track sections work, how long are you saying the train will take to get from Athenry to Tuam using say, the 2800 for instance without any passing loop because that wont happen as we know. And a higher max speed will increase your average speed too.

Greaney · 23-12-2019 11:19PM

Quackster wrote: »

Just as well nobody is arguing to throw greenways in anywhere and everywhere, but areas that are likely to make sense and to really benefit from them!

Isambard is entirely correct though. Athey/Tuam is so far down the rail priority list that even if you trebled or quadrupled investment in rail (and I am absolutely adamant that needs to be done), there are so many much more important rail projects that would absorb all that investment. And then some.

Everyone needs to be realistic that the line north of Tuam will never ever reopen and allow the greenway to proceed on this section ASAP.

The decision regarding the old track isn't 'everyone's to make, it's the decision of Irish Rail with the support of central government. Irish rail own the tracks, and roaring and shouting at them will achieve nothing.

Just a reminder that after the 2012 AECom/Goodbody report was so favourable about the reopening of the line for rail, that a group got together to develop it further. But as we're all finding out.... it takes tiiiiime
https://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4026145-athenrytuam-rail-action-group-launched-in-tuam

donvito99 · 24-12-2019 12:31AM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Ah. OK. This post (strangely) clarifies a lot for me regarding the political discourse surrounding the WRC reactivation. From it, I was able to locate the presentation that Minister Ciarán Cannon and anor. apparently made to EY-DKM Economic Advisory Services (the consultancy preparing the 'rail review'). Overall, there is nothing in that presentation worth remarking upon, except for one statistic on p. 6. It states that in 2018, 137,784 passengers traveled between Ennis and Athenry (which sounds reasonably accurate to me).

This equates to 377 passengers per day (every day of the year). Yet, Minister Cannon states the following to the media just a few weeks later:

“If we forensically examine the figures, the numbers using the Athenry to Ennis section average out at 39 people per day. That is horrendous. It is not sustainable,” Minister Cannon said. Emphasis Added. See: https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rails-against-reopening-the-line-190/ So Minister Cannon cannot be correct. He seems to be low by almost an order of magnitude!

Also, umbrage was taken at the allegation that there appears to be a campaign to shut down Phase 1 of the WRC. However, we see Minister Cannon stating as early as 2017:

'A Galway East T.D and Junior Minister says the Ennis to Athenry rail route may not be viable into the future when the M17 Gort to Tuam motorway opens.
Minister Ciaran Cannon says a decision on closing the rail route can’t be made until a full review is complete.
...
Galway East Minister of State, Ciaran Cannon says, a greenway might be a better opportunity for the Ennis to Athenry rail line.' See: https://connachttribune.ie/galway-junior-minister-says-athenry-ennis-rail-route-may-not-be-viable/

Minister Cannon! Please stop your efforts to eliminate existing rail service in the West and to prevent potential new services! And I wish you a Happy Christmas with this video of Ciarian's Cannon in https://www.facebook.com/WalthersTrains/videos/459687704979179/

Isn't Cannon just mixing up pax per train with pax per day?

ezstreet5 · 24-12-2019 01:02AM

donvito99 wrote: »

Isn't Cannon just mixing up pax per train with pax per day?

That is one possible mixup, and if true, it would indicate that the IE 2800 Class, two-car DMUs operate on average at 46% capacity for every train throughout the year on that segment, which would be quite good.

But to be fair, I've recently observed four car IE 2800 Class consists being operated on that route, as well as (much welcomed) IE 22000 Class Intercity rolling stock on certain services.

Isambard · 24-12-2019 09:57AM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Ok I understand how track sections work, how long are you saying the train will take to get from Athenry to Tuam using say, the 2800 for instance without any passing loop because that wont happen as we know. And a higher max speed will increase your average speed too.

you do the math.

I'm saying it can't do a return journey in half an hour, or anything like it which it would need to to have a half hour frequency service. It's academic anyway. It wouldn't get a frequency anything like that. 4 or 5 return trips a day maximum would be my guess.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Comments