Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha · 15-12-2019 01:03PM

Now that I've had time to digest the result, I like I've had a Damascene moment and it's liberating.

My whole point about supporting a People's Vote was that the electorate had been conned, that the Leave campaign had broken electoral law and that we were heading for an economically disastrous crash out Brexit to suit the whims of a few shadowy financiers. I stand by these points.

However, the electorate have robustly shown that they don't care. This was the People's Vote. The remain side had their chance and they blew it or spaffed it as our new Prime Minister might say. They simply do not care about the lies, the dogwhistling and the economic arguments against Brexit. They have prioritised it above the NHS, the economy and public services. It seems that Dominic Cummings knew this and played a belter. In fairness to them, Eskimohunt and Kermit.de.frog called this. Kermit kept saying that Brexit needed to be done and now I know why. The electorate, rightly or wrongly voted for some form of Brexit. They've now stamped their feet impatiently and Johnson has listened.

Johnson is now free to pursue whatever kind of Brexit he wants. My feeling is that he'll track towards the centre. His new majority is a highly unstable coalition and while it gives him freedom from the ERG, it also needs careful management. What will be interesting will be how he handles the EU trade negotiations. They're a whole different beast with each member state and some regional Parliaments needing to ratify the deal along with Westminster. Denmark has already demanded access to the UK's waters for its fishing fleets. Ireland, Spain and Cyprus will wield enhanced vetoes. I can see Johnson capitulating again and spinning it as victory but the weary electorate won't care as come February, he can claim that Brexit is done.

Equally interesting is what happens to Labour. I think they're due at least two civil wars over the next decade. Momentum have dug in and won't be going any time soon. They have learned nothing about this and as long as the left remains content to judge and undermine each other, they'll never get elected. Johnson, as long as he wants the job will be Prime Minister after the next election for this reason. The only way forward for Labour in my opinion is to reconnect with the working class. This means discarding both Socialism and anything even close to pro-EU liberalism. We're done. I think the new leader, as much as I hate to say this will have to be an ideally Jewish white male with a regional accent. Metropolitan Socialists are too far detached from their nothern base to win an election. They can be ideologically pure or they can listen to their voters. It's that simple.

If I were the Labour centrists, I'd take a leaf out of Cummings book. Leave the potentially toxic Rejoin stuff to the remnants of the Remain campaigners and see how they go. As for the Liberal Democrats, I've no idea what they do now. Somehow, Swinson lost them a seat from their 2017 tally. She's been an unmitigated disaster.

I don't know what shtick Farage will use to pathetically try to stay relevant with his zero seats. Getting rid of him and his appalling little party is the one positive I can see. I think he wants to cannibalise the Conservatives like the Reform Party of Canada did with the Progressive Conservative party.

Whatever happens, I don't think Rejoin will get anywhere near the political mainstream until 2030 at the absolute earliest unless Johnson crashes the economy which seems unlikely. The UK is leaving the EU in January and that's it.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 01:22PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Now that I've had time to digest the result, I like I've had a Damascene moment and it's liberating.

My whole point about supporting a People's Vote was that the electorate had been conned, that the Leave campaign had broken electoral law and that we were heading for an economically disastrous crash out Brexit to suit the whims of a few shadowy financiers. I stand by these points.

However, the electorate have robustly shown that they don't care. This was the People's Vote. The remain side had their chance and they blew it or spaffed it as our new Prime Minister might say. They simply do not care about the lies, the dogwhistling and the economic arguments against Brexit. They have prioritised it above the NHS, the economy and public services. It seems that Dominic Cummings knew this and played a belter. In fairness to them, Eskimohunt and Kermit.de.frog called this. Kermit kept saying that Brexit needed to be done and now I know why. The electorate, rightly or wrongly voted for some form of Brexit. They've now stamped their feet impatiently and Johnson has listened.

Johnson is now free to pursue whatever kind of Brexit he wants. My feeling is that he'll track towards the centre. His new majority is a highly unstable coalition and while it gives him freedom from the ERG, it also needs careful management. What will be interesting will be how he handles the EU trade negotiations. They're a whole different beast with each member state and some regional Parliaments needing to ratify the deal along with Westminster. Denmark has already demanded access to the UK's waters for its fishing fleets. Ireland, Spain and Cyprus will wield enhanced vetoes. I can see Johnson capitulating again and spinning it as victory but the weary electorate won't care as come February, he can claim that Brexit is done.

Equally interesting is what happens to Labour. I think they're due at least two civil wars over the next decade. Momentum have dug in and won't be going any time soon. They have learned nothing about this and as long as the left remains content to judge and undermine each other, they'll never get elected. Johnson, as long as he wants the job will be Prime Minister after the next election for this reason. The only way forward for Labour in my opinion is to reconnect with the working class. This means discarding both Socialism and anything even close to pro-EU liberalism. We're done. I think the new leader, as much as I hate to say this will have to be an ideally Jewish white male with a regional accent. Metropolitan Socialists are too far detached from their nothern base to win an election. They can be ideologically pure or they can listen to their voters. It's that simple.

If I were the Labour centrists, I'd take a leaf out of Cummings book. Leave the potentially toxic Rejoin stuff to the remnants of the Remain campaigners and see how they go. As for the Liberal Democrats, I've no idea what they do now. Somehow, Swinson lost them a seat from their 2017 tally. She's been an unmitigated disaster.

I don't know what shtick Farage will use to pathetically try to stay relevant with his zero seats. Getting rid of him and his appalling little party is the one positive I can see. I think he wants to cannibalise the Conservatives like the Reform Party of Canada did with the Progressive Conservative party.

Whatever happens, I don't think Rejoin will get anywhere near the political mainstream until 2030 at the absolute earliest unless Johnson crashes the economy which seems unlikely. The UK is leaving the EU in January and that's it.

54% of people voted for parties that were against Brexit or who promised a second referendum.

Sam Russell · 15-12-2019 01:59PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

54% of people voted for parties that were against Brexit or who promised a second referendum.

Precisely.

The anti Brexit parties in the HoC played a very poor hand. When they got the Benn act passed, they should have gone full on and set up a Gov of National Unity, and set about getting rid of Brexit.

Instead, they fought among themselves, with the first item on the agenda - the split.

They deserve all they get.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 02:02PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Precisely.

The anti Brexit parties in the HoC played a very poor hand. When they got the Benn act passed, they should have gone full on and set up a Gov of National Unity, and set about getting rid of Brexit.

Instead, they fought among themselves, with the first item on the agenda - the split.

They deserve all they get.

Plus the Lib Dems facilitated Johnson in getting an election. Idiots.

ancapailldorcha · 15-12-2019 02:03PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

54% of people voted for parties that were against Brexit or who promised a second referendum.

And? British democracy doesn't work this way. I wish it did but it does not.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 02:06PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And? British democracy doesn't work this way. I wish it did but it does not.

The point is that the electorate did not actually vote for Leave in the GE. But the party that represents Leave got elected with a large majority. I think we're making the same point.

RobMc59 · 15-12-2019 02:34PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Precisely.

The anti Brexit parties in the HoC played a very poor hand. When they got the Benn act passed, they should have gone full on and set up a Gov of National Unity, and set about getting rid of Brexit.

Instead, they fought among themselves, with the first item on the agenda - the split.

They deserve all they get.

Classic tactic,divide and conquer.

Strazdas · 15-12-2019 02:43PM

Fascinating claim by Ken Clarke that Johnson hadn't a clue what he was agreeing to when he met Varadkar in Cheshire and didn't even understand the border down the Irish Sea concept :

https://twitter.com/harrytlambert/status/1204823113243996160

AllForIt · 15-12-2019 02:45PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

54% of people voted for parties that were against Brexit or who promised a second referendum.

Your still in denial. That has been the hallmark of hard remainder attitude for the last 3 years.

What happened to the young vote? Where did the vote go from the 15/16/17 year colds of 3 years ago who's future we were constantly told would be affected the most - their future - the Greta Thunburg angle. How did the death of 3 years of older 'insular little Englanders' affect the vote?

What happened when all the lies were exposed? What happened when Boris was said to be a person who cares about noting or no one except his own career. What happened when we were told he was a raging racist, islamophobe and homophobe? Yet we are expected to believe that bad press against JC was the main reason Labour flopped.

Jack Straw on Fridays Newsnight said to a Labour MP who narrowly lost to IDS that in every election he participated in that there were lies told on both sides. The argument that another ref should be called because of lies was always a weak argument even if completely true. It's time to get real.

The only valid reason for another ref would be over what kind of Brexit and if that was argued you may have got it. But no, the real motivation for a 2nd ref was to overturn the 2016 result.

So now the only argument left is that 54% of the electorate voted for remain parties! Wow, 54%! That's overwhelming isn't it! Couldn't be clearer.

Really and truly, the remain position is just comical now. The protests are comical. The arguments are comical. If remainers don't give up now they just leave themselves open to ridicule. As Michael Heseltine says it's pie in the sky to think remain is in any way possible now.

Enzokk · 15-12-2019 02:47PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Now that I've had time to digest the result, I like I've had a Damascene moment and it's liberating.

My whole point about supporting a People's Vote was that the electorate had been conned, that the Leave campaign had broken electoral law and that we were heading for an economically disastrous crash out Brexit to suit the whims of a few shadowy financiers. I stand by these points.

However, the electorate have robustly shown that they don't care. This was the People's Vote. The remain side had their chance and they blew it or spaffed it as our new Prime Minister might say. They simply do not care about the lies, the dogwhistling and the economic arguments against Brexit. They have prioritised it above the NHS, the economy and public services. It seems that Dominic Cummings knew this and played a belter. In fairness to them, Eskimohunt and Kermit.de.frog called this. Kermit kept saying that Brexit needed to be done and now I know why. The electorate, rightly or wrongly voted for some form of Brexit. They've now stamped their feet impatiently and Johnson has listened.

Johnson is now free to pursue whatever kind of Brexit he wants. My feeling is that he'll track towards the centre. His new majority is a highly unstable coalition and while it gives him freedom from the ERG, it also needs careful management. What will be interesting will be how he handles the EU trade negotiations. They're a whole different beast with each member state and some regional Parliaments needing to ratify the deal along with Westminster. Denmark has already demanded access to the UK's waters for its fishing fleets. Ireland, Spain and Cyprus will wield enhanced vetoes. I can see Johnson capitulating again and spinning it as victory but the weary electorate won't care as come February, he can claim that Brexit is done.

Equally interesting is what happens to Labour. I think they're due at least two civil wars over the next decade. Momentum have dug in and won't be going any time soon. They have learned nothing about this and as long as the left remains content to judge and undermine each other, they'll never get elected. Johnson, as long as he wants the job will be Prime Minister after the next election for this reason. The only way forward for Labour in my opinion is to reconnect with the working class. This means discarding both Socialism and anything even close to pro-EU liberalism. We're done. I think the new leader, as much as I hate to say this will have to be an ideally Jewish white male with a regional accent. Metropolitan Socialists are too far detached from their nothern base to win an election. They can be ideologically pure or they can listen to their voters. It's that simple.

If I were the Labour centrists, I'd take a leaf out of Cummings book. Leave the potentially toxic Rejoin stuff to the remnants of the Remain campaigners and see how they go. As for the Liberal Democrats, I've no idea what they do now. Somehow, Swinson lost them a seat from their 2017 tally. She's been an unmitigated disaster.

I don't know what shtick Farage will use to pathetically try to stay relevant with his zero seats. Getting rid of him and his appalling little party is the one positive I can see. I think he wants to cannibalise the Conservatives like the Reform Party of Canada did with the Progressive Conservative party.

Whatever happens, I don't think Rejoin will get anywhere near the political mainstream until 2030 at the absolute earliest unless Johnson crashes the economy which seems unlikely. The UK is leaving the EU in January and that's it.

Dominic Cummings is a cancer that needs to be gotten rid of before he causes serious damage. There are lots of dictators out there who has done what he has, Duterte and Bolsanaro come to mind who has succeeded. That said many others has failed so he deserves props for succeeding but the way he did it wasn't some masterstroke. Having Cumberbatch play you in a Movie as well helps, softens your image to the public and helps your boss as well.

As for Labour, they need to get rid of the likes of Ash Sarkar and Aaron Bastani as soon as they can. These people need to go back to the shadows and just keep quiet for a bit. They have no clue about Labour voters in the country and believed their own hype after 2017. The warnings were there, Labour PLP voting no confidence in Corbyn because their voters told them he is a problem yet he survived and this emboldened them knowing unless he loses an election he cannot be gotten rid of. The selfless and good man who couldn't stomach standing aside for the good of the country for 6 months and who is staying in charge now to influence the next leader election. Selfless my behind, he is just as cynical as the worst politicians out there.

The missed opportunities will haunt the country. Say what you want about the Iraq War, but Tony Blair is a very astute politician and he should have been leant on for advice. Instead they have tried to forget about him and anyone from his era. Getting rid of the likes of Allistair Campbell as well just shows how out of touch people in Labour really are. If they elect another Corbynite it will be finished for Labour I fear.

I agree with you, Brexit needs to happen. If it didn't then for the next 50 years eurosceptics would have used it to make the country worse. At least we have our deal sorted and we can move on now. As for the direction Johnson will take? It really depends on his cabinet, but if he keeps the likes of Patel and Gove in there then I cannot see how he tacks to the centre. Remember Cummings is still there and his views on the EU seems clear, otherwise he wouldn't have backed that horse. My anarchist streak tells me I want them to ram through the WAB and the trade negotiations and really screw it up. I felt empathy fir those people who are struggling, but they decided the Tories are the best equipped to get them out of the hole the Tories put them in. Imagine losing an election against that.

Enzokk · 15-12-2019 02:55PM

AllForIt wrote: »

Your still in denial. That has been the hallmark of hard remainder attitude for the last 3 years.

What happened to the young vote? Where did the vote go from the 15/16/17 year colds of 3 years ago who's future we were constantly told would be affected the most - their future - the Greta Thunburg angle. How did the death of 3 years of older 'insular little Englanders' affect the vote?

What happened when all the lies were exposed? What happened when Boris was said to be a person who cares about noting or no one except his own career. What happened when we were told he was a raging racist, islamophobe and homophobe? Yet we are expected to believe that bad press against JC was the main reason Labour flopped.

Jack Straw on Fridays Newsnight said to a Labour MP who narrowly lost to IDS that in every election he participated in that there were lies told on both sides. The argument that another ref should be called because of lies was always a weak argument even if completely true. It's time to get real.

The only valid reason for another ref would be over what kind of Brexit and if that was argued you may have got it. But no, the real motivation for a 2nd ref was to overturn the 2016 result.

So now the only argument left is that 54% of the electorate voted for remain parties! Wow, 54%! That's overwhelming isn't it! Couldn't be clearer.

Really and truly, the remain position is just comical now. The protests are comical. The arguments are comical. If remainers don't give up now they just leave themselves open to ridicule. As Michael Heseltine says it's pie in the sky to think remain is in any way possible now.

The Tories and the Brexit Party got 45.6% of the votes. Fact. I don't think anyone has called for this election to be re-run because of the lies the Conservatives told. Neither has there been calls for the Brexit referendum to be done again because of the lies. It was because they BROKE THE LAW that people wanted a second referendum. But those calls will subside now, Remain will become rejoin but only in 5 to 10 years time. Brexit has to happen and we have to see the consequences, if there are very little negative outcomes then the UK will remain out of the EU.

woohoo!!! · 15-12-2019 03:10PM

Enzokk wrote: »

The Tories and the Brexit Party got 45.6% of the votes. Fact. I don't think anyone has called for this election to be re-run because of the lies the Conservatives told. Neither has there been calls for the Brexit referendum to be done again because of the lies. It was because they BROKE THE LAW that people wanted a second referendum. But those calls will subside now, Remain will become rejoin but only in 5 to 10 years time. Brexit has to happen and we have to see the consequences, if there are very little negative outcomes then the UK will remain out of the EU.

The EU won't be in any hurry to readmit Brit exceotionalusm. Join the euro, no opt outs, thereby making it very unlikely to rejoin. I think it'll take a decade to define the future relationship and who knows what the political landscape will look like.

Silent Running · 15-12-2019 03:33PM

woohoo!!! wrote: »

The EU won't be in any hurry to readmit Brit exceotionalusm. Join the euro, no opt outs, thereby making it very unlikely to rejoin. I think it'll take a decade to define the future relationship and who knows what the political landscape will look like.

It's actually a bit of a tragedy that the UK is leaving the EU. A tragedy for the UK people and a tragedy for the EU.

I believe that the UK people will realise this after some time, but it won't lead to a call to rejoin in the near term. The stiff upper lip will see to that.

The tragedy for the EU is that it has lost an influential and wealthy partner when it could really have done with some stability.

The future is anything but clear with too many variables to make a call with any certainty. I hope that the EU rides out this storm, and I believe it will. I hope that the UK will rejoin some time in the future, whether it's via individual parts of the union breaking away, or as a unit.

To coin a phrase, we're better together.

May we live in interesting times, as the Chinese would say.

brickster69 · 15-12-2019 03:41PM

Easy to say now, but the insistence on not allowing a time limit on the backstop was an epic failure. Could of been dealing with Theresa May with a minority government now.

Enzokk · 15-12-2019 05:34PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Easy to say now, but the insistence on not allowing a time limit on the backstop was an epic failure. Could of been dealing with Theresa May with a minority government now.

Why? We have our frontstop instead of the backstop and all talk of alternative arrangements are gone. It seems clear Johnson, in his desire to get a deal, gave the EU what they wanted without any thoughts on what he is agreeing to. The EU will be comfortable with Johnson across the table.

LuckyLloyd · 15-12-2019 05:53PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Easy to say now, but the insistence on not allowing a time limit on the backstop was an epic failure. Could of been dealing with Theresa May with a minority government now.

I think the EU are more than happy to negotiate with someone who can cut a deal and implement it! Already got a superior arrangement on the border out of it.

johnnyskeleton · 15-12-2019 06:44PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The point is that the electorate did not actually vote for Leave in the GE. But the party that represents Leave got elected with a large majority. I think we're making the same point.

Well another way to spin it is that 68% voted for parties that had fixed views on Brexit, but only 32% voted for parties that wanted a second referendum. Ergo, for good or ill, the British people dont want a second referendum.

Its unwise to try to distort the stats too much. Approximately*:

46% voted for leave parties
21% voted for remain parties
33% voted for neutral / second referendum parties

So double the amount of votes for leave as remain is another reading of it, equally inaccurate.

*for some infuriating reason the UK Media make it difficult to get extact info on the smaller parties and its not clear whether SF should be considered as Remain or Neutral due to absentsionism

Eric Cartman · 15-12-2019 06:47PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well another way to spin it is that 68% voted for parties that had fixed views on Brexit, but only 32% voted for parties that wanted a second referendum. Ergo, for good or ill, the British people dont want a second referendum.

Its unwise to try to distort the stats too much. Approximately*:

46% voted for leave parties
21% voted for remain parties
33% voted for neutral / second referendum parties

So double the amount of votes for leave as remain is another reading of it, equally inaccurate.

*for some infuriating reason the UK Media make it difficult to get extact info on the smaller parties and its not clear whether SF should be considered as Remain or Neutral due to absentsionism

the issue comes with most people automatically assuming that second referendum is just remain with extra steps.

johnnyskeleton · 15-12-2019 06:50PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Easy to say now, but the insistence on not allowing a time limit on the backstop was an epic failure. Could of been dealing with Theresa May with a minority government now.

Ideally we would have an even bigger tory majority for the reason that they could then ignore the ERG rebels entirely and still agree a Brexit deal along similar lines as EEA or EFTA/Switzerland

johnnyskeleton · 15-12-2019 06:53PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the issue comes with most people automatically assuming that second referendum is just remain with extra steps.

Perhaps. But I just dont accept that Labour are truly in the remain camp.

Brexit has caused a three way Mexican stand off in British politics, with no one side (hard brexit, soft brexit, remain) being able to convince one of the others to support them for a majority.

At least now, for good or ill, the hard brexiteers have softened and joined the soft brexiteers, or so it seems

Eric Cartman · 15-12-2019 06:53PM

more importantly though, will the current deal allow me to get duty free smokes and booze on the ferry to hollyhead.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 06:57PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well another way to spin it is that 68% voted for parties that had fixed views on Brexit, but only 32% voted for parties that wanted a second referendum. Ergo, for good or ill, the British people dont want a second referendum.

Its unwise to try to distort the stats too much. Approximately*:

46% voted for leave parties
21% voted for remain parties
33% voted for neutral / second referendum parties

So double the amount of votes for leave as remain is another reading of it, equally inaccurate.

*for some infuriating reason the UK Media make it difficult to get extact info on the smaller parties and its not clear whether SF should be considered as Remain or Neutral due to absentsionism

I didn't distort the stats. I stated quite clearly that the Tories/Brexit Party were Leave. Which they are. The others were Remain or Second Referendum - which is obviously not Leave. I think to state that parties who advocate a second referendum are "neutral" is simply semantics or a misunderstanding of the nature of a second referendum.

Let's use your definition. SF were explicitly and emphatically Not Leave. As were SNP, Alliance, Plaid Cymru and Greens.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 07:01PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Perhaps. But I just dont accept that Labour are truly in the remain camp.

Brexit has caused a three way Mexican stand off in British politics, with no one side (hard brexit, soft brexit, remain) being able to convince one of the others to support them for a majority.

At least now, for good or ill, the hard brexiteers have softened and joined the soft brexiteers, or so it seems

88% of Labour members support Remain.

Eric Cartman · 15-12-2019 07:03PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

88% of Labour members support Remain.

labour members, their voting base in working class communities and the non voters who they claim to represent however...

15-12-2019 07:04PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

54% of people voted for parties that were against Brexit or who promised a second referendum.

The fact that they voted for non Brexit parties, it cannot be claimed that they were remainers, a significant percentage would have been die hard Labour or SNP/PC or Sf voters who would vote for no one else.
As it was Labour fence sat all the way to the polls, they could have decided to go hard core Brexit if elected.

Gbear · 15-12-2019 07:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact that they voted for non Brexit parties, it cannot be claimed that they were remainers, a significant percentage would have been die hard Labour or SNP/PC or Sf voters who would vote for no one else.
As it was Labour fence sat all the way to the polls, they could have decided to go hard core Brexit if elected.

Implicit in your point is that political parties don't have a mandate to do anything in their manifestos.

For democracy to mean anything, we must take it as a given that a party's electorate at least tolerate the points in their manifesto. Otherwise, a policy platform is meaningless.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 07:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact that they voted for non Brexit parties, it cannot be claimed that they were remainers, a significant percentage would have been die hard Labour or SNP/PC or Sf voters who would vote for no one else.

Similarly, many people will have voted Tory despite being anti Brexit.

As it was Labour fence sat all the way to the polls, they could have decided to go hard core Brexit if elected.

Labour would not have gone "hard core Brexit if elected". Never going to happen. The large majority of Labour voters, members and MPs are Remain.

15-12-2019 07:25PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Similarly, many people will have voted Tory despite being anti Brexit.

Labour would not have gone "hard core Brexit if elected". Never going to happen. The large majority of Labour voters, members and MPs are Remain.

True, plenty of die hard Tories out there, if a Labour government(had been elected) had decided to Brexit, they would have split their party, but got lots of support from the Tories.

Professor Moriarty · 15-12-2019 07:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

True, plenty of die hard Tories out there, if a Labour government(had been elected) had decided to Brexit, they would have split their party, but got lots of support from the Tories.

Well, that would have been a bizarre sight to see. It would be like Johnson now pushing for a second referendum against the wishes of Tory party members, voters and MPs.

15-12-2019 07:35PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, that would have been a bizarre sight to see. It would be like Johnson now pushing for a second referendum against the wishes of Tory party members, voters and MPs.

If the Tories, thought that a second referendum would vote leave, they'd back it.
All moot now as the Tories won.

Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

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