what is the burning passion for having an open fire?

Andy From Sligo · 07-12-2019 2:24am

air wrote: »

You get a feel for it quickly if you take an interest, many don't.

Air pollution is down primarily due to improvements in industrial and vehicle emissions.
There's very little scope for further improvements there other than the shift to electric vehicles.

According to this website an older wood stove emits 15 to 40g of particulate matter per hour.
I'd be fairly confident that a turf fire damped down as promoted by a few people in this thread emits a lot more.

A Euro 6 compliant diesel on the other hand can emit no more than 0.005g/km of particulate matter.

So even taking the lower figure of 15g per hour for a wood stove a single stove emits more PM than 40 cars doing 80kph.

If an average car does 18,000km per annum at 50kph, it's only running for 360 hours a year.
I'd guess a wood stove would run for at least twice that number of hours per year (say 4 months a year for 6 hours).
This would mean the PM emissions of one wood stove would be equivalent to that of 80 cars.

Hopefully this helps explain where the anti wood stove sentiment is coming from.

that's fascinating - puts it into perspective makes you sit up and think (rather makes me sit up and think) .. although the people who would rather die than give up an open fire , I doubt if it makes them sit up and think.

I wonder how many people have come home from work in their electric cars now, recycling everything in its proper bins, their kids missed days off school protesting about the environment, conserve water when brushing their teeth ..... come home and light an open fire?

pablo128 · 07-12-2019 3:13am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

its a lot lighter when you remove the gas bottle

It's a lot cheaper to break up a few pallets out of the job and burn them instead.:D

izzyflusky · 07-12-2019 1:09pm

We bought a new build and no need for a fire, house it's at a constant 21 degrees (which is what we like) and walk around in t-shirts all year round.

I never used the fire in other houses though. And now Yankee candles do crackling candles which is what I use for the noise effect when I want to relax. We are also inserting an electric fireplace at the moment for the visual only as the house is too warm as it is sometimes.

deezell · 07-12-2019 1:26pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

We have a stove that heats the water in the tank. The difference between stove heated water and oil heated water is actually quite remarkable when you are having a shower the next morning. There just seems to be more depth in the heat, more substance. I always miss it during the warmer months.

Thats just fantasy in your head, the energy stored in the heated water has no particular difference due to the heating source, other than the stove can often heat the cylinder way past the stat temperature limit of the oil. Still, it's a nice conceit, it's more likely the earthy feeling of satisfaction from using wood stove heated water. Old Proverb, "He who chops his own firewood warms himself twice". I love the stove heat from the radiators and the silence of the oil boiler at the same time, knowing it was my own sweat responsible for the wood pile that supplied it.

the_syco · 07-12-2019 1:34pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

hauling in filthy bloody dirty coal from the freezing cold outside

Coal? Logs is where it's at!

deezell · 07-12-2019 1:42pm

the_syco wrote: »

Coal? Logs is where it's at!

Yes, and a few smokeless coal stove nuggets sparingly now and then under the logs can get a really intense burn going, optimising combustion.

freshpopcorn · 07-12-2019 2:30pm

I find the fire cosy and relaxing compared to central heating all the time.
I've being in houses where there's no fire and whilst they are warm. They don't feel homely in my experience.

Ubbquittious · 07-12-2019 3:38pm

air wrote: »

You get a feel for it quickly if you take an interest, many don't.

Air pollution is down primarily due to improvements in industrial and vehicle emissions.
There's very little scope for further improvements there other than the shift to electric vehicles.

According to this website an older wood stove emits 15 to 40g of particulate matter per hour.
I'd be fairly confident that a turf fire damped down as promoted by a few people in this thread emits a lot more.

A Euro 6 compliant diesel on the other hand can emit no more than 0.005g/km of particulate matter.

So even taking the lower figure of 15g per hour for a wood stove a single stove emits more PM than 40 cars doing 80kph.

If an average car does 18,000km per annum at 50kph, it's only running for 360 hours a year.
I'd guess a wood stove would run for at least twice that number of hours per year (say 4 months a year for 6 hours).
This would mean the PM emissions of one wood stove would be equivalent to that of 80 cars.

Hopefully this helps explain where the anti wood stove sentiment is coming from.

There are way more cars on the road than there are lit stoves. and if you have the fire damped down the rate at which stuff comes out the chimney decreases an awful lot. Very few people have old stoves though I have a couple at home they would be rare enough since they only really caught on during the tiger here.

i can see it would cause a problem back in the day when every single person in a town was burning smoky coal in an open fire but these days when you look around there aren't that many chimneys with smoke coming out and the wind blows away most of it. We are very windswept here and only places like Iceland would have better air quality than we do

air · 07-12-2019 3:44pm

Try driving through any rural town or indeed city in freezing conditions when everyone has their stove or fire lit.
The air quality is absolutely abysmal and I find it very noticeable even driving through.
It happened only a week ago when we had a short cold snap.
Only a matter of time before legislation is introduced to protect us from ourselves.

Ubbquittious · 07-12-2019 3:53pm

air wrote: »

Try driving through any rural town or indeed city in freezing conditions when everyone has their stove or fire lit.
The air quality is absolutely abysmal and I find it very noticeable even driving through.
It happened only a week ago when we had a short cold snap.
Only a matter of time before legislation is introduced to protect us from ourselves.

The conditions have to be just right for that to happen. We are rarely lucky enough that it's cold and no wind. The odd time in places you'd get a whiff of turf or coal alright but it's never terrible. Whats way worse is when there's a fella burning plastic

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-12-2019 3:58pm

Up until last year I never lived in a house with another heating option apart from the open fire. All houses I lived in had no other heating. This house has gas which is a novelty for me, and while I miss sitting beside the fire, I don't miss the hassle of it. I am currently in the process of buying a house with oil and an open fire. I cannot see myself ever lighting the fire even though I like it, so I think I'll get rid of it, maybe replace with a stove.

air · 07-12-2019 4:01pm

Yes, and when the conditions are just right for it is when people are most likely to light their fires due to low temperatures.

I do find it terrible to be honest, but that's all subjective.

The real issue is the human health impact from imperceptibly tiny particulate matter which is impacting everyone's health, both inside and outside the houses with the fires.

Long before it gets bad enough that you can smell the smoke you can be sure you're guzzling damaging PM in through your lungs.

air · 07-12-2019 4:03pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I find the fire cosy and relaxing compared to central heating all the time.
I've being in houses where there's no fire and whilst they are warm. They don't feel homely in my experience.

Radiant heat is the primary constituent of what would be perceived as this "homely" feel.
It can be perfectly replicated with infrared heating panels.

The flickering glow of the fire is available on Netflix or Youtube!

The positive associations with the poor indoor air quality (smell of smoke) is related to memories you formed near a fire in the past.

freshpopcorn · 07-12-2019 4:17pm

air wrote: »

Radiant heat is the primary constituent of what would be perceived as this "homely" feel.
It can be perfectly replicated with infrared heating panels.

The flickering glow of the fire is available on Netflix or Youtube!

The positive associations with the poor indoor air quality (smell of smoke) is related to memories you formed near a fire in the past.

A flicking picture or an electric yoke. Isn't the same as a fire.
If your house smells badly of smoke. There's issues with your chimney.

Ubbquittious · 07-12-2019 4:32pm

air wrote: »

Yes, and when the conditions are just right for it is when people are most likely to light their fires due to low temperatures.

I do find it terrible to be honest, but that's all subjective.

The real issue is the human health impact from imperceptibly tiny particulate matter which is impacting everyone's health, both inside and outside the houses with the fires.

Long before it gets bad enough that you can smell the smoke you can be sure you're guzzling damaging PM in through your lungs.

There is some amount PM everywhere no getting away from it. On the few days a year that you find it terrible you're better off going to visit your auntie's farm in the countryside and go for a jaunt on one of her horses. Or maybe grab the shotgun and bring home an auld pheasant for the dinner. This will save you from having to add to the problem yourself and much better than stewing at home being bitter about it.

Muahahaha · 07-12-2019 5:14pm

air wrote: »

Try driving through any rural town or indeed city in freezing conditions when everyone has their stove or fire lit.
The air quality is absolutely abysmal and I find it very noticeable even driving through.
It happened only a week ago when we had a short cold snap.
Only a matter of time before legislation is introduced to protect us from ourselves.

I couldnt see any political party in power pushing a new law that would ban lighting fires, it would be political suicide for them. Maybe the EU will push it and it will be forced upon us but then it will be widely ignored with little to no enforcement. .

air · 07-12-2019 5:37pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I couldnt see any political party in power pushing a new law that would ban lighting fires, it would be political suicide for them. Maybe the EU will push it and it will be forced upon us but then it will be widely ignored with little to no enforcement. .

I agree, it won't happen overnight by any means but it is inevitable that they will be introduced eventually. It's already being talked about for larger European cities.

I would imagine one off rural properties would be the last to be impacted.

air · 07-12-2019 5:39pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

A flicking picture or an electric yoke. Isn't the same as a fire.
If your house smells badly of smoke. There's issues with your chimney.

I never said it was the same, but it's likely to be the closest thing available eventually.

No smell of smoke in my house thanks as I don't have a fire. A different story if I step outside on a cold calm night however.

air · 07-12-2019 5:44pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

There is some amount PM everywhere no getting away from it.

Of course there is, which is all the more reason to eliminate all the needless sources of it.

If people want to burn wood for now it should be in pellet form where the fuel quality, moisture content and combustion can all be controlled precisely to minimise the human health impact.

I'm not in the least bit bitter about smoke, it's a fact of life for now however I'm not going to accept that solid fuel burning in urban areas is a good idea either.

freshpopcorn · 07-12-2019 5:45pm

air wrote: »

I never said it was the same, but it's likely to be the closest thing available eventually.

No smell of smoke in my house thanks as I don't have a fire. A different story if I step outside on a cold calm night however.

If you were in a house and there was a smell of smoke there's a problem with the chimney. That's what I was confirming for you.
Thanks for also confirming that your flicking screen isn't the same as a nice homely fire and it's imilar to an office, prison or something with no real atmosphere. Enjoy it.

Ubbquittious · 07-12-2019 5:45pm

air wrote: »

I agree, it won't happen overnight by any means but it is inevitable that they will be introduced eventually. It's already being talked about for larger European cities.

I would imagine one off rural properties would be the last to be impacted.

Maybe they will eventually come up with some daft contraption of a system that they make you install to suck the particles out, probably a lot easier to do than with a car since theres no movement but I'm not too worried they'll do anything.

beejee · 07-12-2019 5:54pm

As someone said to me once, and it stuck, a good fire is like company.

There is something animate about a fire, something close to being "alive", the crackle and movement and shifting glow.

Really love a nice fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_KmNZNT5xw

air · 07-12-2019 5:56pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Maybe they will eventually come up with some daft contraption of a system that they make you install to suck the particles out, probably a lot easier to do than with a car since theres no movement but I'm not too worried they'll do anything.

The issue with particulate filters is the huge variation in fuel quality that gets burned in solid fuel fires.
I don't know if there is any way to burn peat or peat products without horrific emissions.

Plenty of people were sceptical about the smoking ban as well before it was introduced.

Anyway, enjoy your polluted air while you can

Moon Indigo · 07-12-2019 6:56pm

For heat. The house has no central heating and never had. Rads heat up from the Stanley in the kitchen and open fire in sitting room heats that room. Yes I do know I must get central heating in but financially just unable to afford it at the present time. I love the open fire but really aware that times are changing so will have to get heating put in.

air · 07-12-2019 7:06pm

There are grants available for heat pumps but you need to have a pretty good BER to start with which isn't cheap either unfortunately if your house is an old and poorly insulated one.
A stove instead of the open fire in your sitting room would probably be a good improvement in the short term.

Muahahaha · 07-12-2019 7:38pm

air wrote: »

I agree, it won't happen overnight by any means but it is inevitable that they will be introduced eventually. It's already being talked about for larger European cities.

I would imagine one off rural properties would be the last to be impacted.

Yeah I would imagine at some stage a directive will come down from the EU and that will give the government of the day political cover to introduce a ban. Enforcement though would be a nightmare and I just cant see the Gardai spinning around at night time looking for smoke coming out of peoples chimneys. It would also result in a fair few jobs losses for those who work supplying solid fuels.

I wonder would just banning coal/peat briquettes and permitting wood only make any tangible difference to the air quality or does it have to be wood too?

An Ri rua · 07-12-2019 8:04pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

do you know when the world will go to **** - until it does will ye not use Gas or oil to heat your rads and water seeing as they are like readily available?

there are cleaner alternatives out there.

many people wash their clothes in a washing machine these days, they no longer go down to the river with a stone and washboard because the washing machine is cleaner, more modern, less hassle and does a good job .
sure if the electric goes off and you can no longer use the washing machine you will have to wash your clothes in the sink .. but until that time comes ...

What about the fact that oil extraction is the cause of so much human misery and loss of life?
We need to be practical about all of this. And move towards greener ways that brings everyone along, rich and poor.
At the moment, the green lobby is, intended or not, a war on poorer people. Drive a new diesel or hybrid or electric that has wasted so much resources to make, and import, or drive an older car, fully serviced, NCT'd, until it's 15-20 years old. Don't worry, the government and middle class overpaid urban types have already made that decision easy to make, if you have the money....
The environmental issues didn't just happen yesterday. The Greens did damage at the local elections and now FG/FF see merit in absorbing some of this message and so they fuel the kids. The kids aren't wrong, it's just they're only seeing what others have seen already. Except they get driven to school and fly on school trips and family holidays....
Years ago I wrote to Dan Boyle about installing simple stoves with a five year ROI using the very money they were giving through the fuel allowance.
Nothing happened. As the Greens werent rooted in practicality. Much like Pippa Hackett's first pronouncement as s Councillor in Offaly, with regards to biodegradable election posters. Did you ever hear the like?! Titanic...deckchairs.... Typical of the middle-class clueless green.
Be f**kin frugal and respect life and inanimate objects, instead of conspicuous consumption and destruction.

Sitting in front of a roaring fire right now. 2 rooms heated, rest of house cool til required.

All things should be examined. But the kneejerk stuff is painful to watch, like teenagers discovering the sky is falling. Much as we discovered impending nuclear armaggedon in the 80s....Geiger counters are go!

I wonder how that idiot on the radio that the OP referred to cuts his lawn? 2 stroke petrol? 4 stroke purgatory? Or does he use a good old cylinder push mower (I do once I get the weather and the lawn sorted).

Rant over.

Moon Indigo · 07-12-2019 8:43pm

Applied for the SEAI grant and awaiting a surveyor so that may help a bit. Ah I know old house and your right not greatly insulated and truth is I do worry about it but I count myself fortunate that I have heat and home. I also don’t think I can possibly be the only home in Ireland without central heating. I think often of some older person hearing about a ban on fires and them being genuinely worried silly. As do I think of the jobs that will go when it does all happen but times change and sometimes all you can do is change with them. Now to light that fire before I freeze!

md23040 · 07-12-2019 9:58pm

air wrote: »

There are grants available for heat pumps but you need to have a pretty good BER to start with which isn't cheap either unfortunately if your house is an old and poorly insulated one.
A stove instead of the open fire in your sitting room would probably be a good improvement in the short term.

I work for council in renewable energy projects in Ireland and across EU in collaboration schemes. I was surprised but the cheapest means on heating a house according to research last week was from new stove systems that efficiently burns coal at high temperature, followed by natural gas. It could be different in Ireland with the carbon tax. I come across so many reports, so at this stage don’t ask for source but if I find it can add as an edit to this.

In relation to air source pumps, I was talking to an energy manager of a large housing association with a few thousand properties at an energy conference and he was saying those installed a few years ago are constantly giving bother and are looking at other systems.

The only alternative IMO to heat a house is passive standard or nZeb (near zero emission building) and a PIV or mechanical heat recovery unit with low infrequent heat input. That way there will be not many issues in the future with things going wrong.

I’ve a Stanley Reginald that does the rads and water and it’s a fantastic ambience. Stayed in Dublin last week in a house with Natural Gas and it is very vanilla and not the same, no comparison. A nice fire is so comforting and similar IMO to a walk on the beach and the soothing sound of waves crashing as opposed to walking around a park.

air · 07-12-2019 10:10pm

Well coal fired electricity is dirt cheap as well but it's hardly a viable option.
Coal needs to stay in the ground, permanently.

what is the burning passion for having an open fire?

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