Big Girl, etc.

Victor · 10-11-2019 4:53pm #1

For a few years, I've had qualms with phrases will 'big girl', 'good boy', 'that's a lovely outfit', 'I like your hair', etc. I felt they were heightist (discrimination against people based on out-of-range heights) and they associated merit / demerit with things that (especially younger) children can't control. 'Good boy' is also something that people use with dogs. Of course, one can still say 'well done', 'that's great' or 'you've brushed your hair very well and it looks nice'.

My brother and his wife noticed something with their 3 year old. While she understands breastfeeding, her doll always get fed with a bottle and never gets breastfed. So we (I was visiting and prompted the questions) asked a few questions. She thinks that in the years to come, she will become a 'big girl', and never a 'woman', 'lady' or 'mammy' (we explained that becoming a mammy was up to her).

Someone here previously mentioned that their 6 year old became very worried at the thought of his parents dying (child and both parents healthy) and that there would be nobody to look after the child when the parents died. The child couldn't appreciate that they would have his own job / income.

Yes, I appreciate she is only 3, but perhaps people should use more thoughtful and less stereotypical phrases.

PS I also found myself referring a Duplo dog as 'he'.

splinter65 · 10-11-2019 5:26pm

This is so depressing.....is there any chance at all that you’re joking?

Sardonicat · 10-11-2019 5:36pm

Three year olds cant really project into the future or envision themselves as adults. They don't realise that they will grow into an adult.

Most kids at around 5/6 are starting to understand that we are mortal and many of them go through a period of anxiety about their parents.

Both the situations you describe are perfectly normal attitudes and behaviours for children their ages.

shesty · 10-11-2019 6:16pm

I think you may be over analysing OP.The two situations you describe are normal.But I will say myself that I am conscious of disliking phrases such as 'be a big girl' or 'aren"t you such a big girl/boy for doing XYZ' myself....I don't know, it just feels like you are kind of belittling a child or something.I would phrase things slightly differently myself.And I also admit to being a bit sensitive to overpraising girls for their 'pretty dresses' or boys for being 'big and strong' or whatever (I have in-laws who are way OTT on the 'pretty dresses' thing)but I am aware that is partly because of my own career choice being in a very male industry and my own subsequent view of the world becoming somewhat more feminist as a result...I don"t want my girls to feel their clothes define them, while people are telling my baby boy 'look at the handsome little prince'.I tend to keep my opinions to myself as these are normally one-off occurences.
People say things without even realising them, all you can do as a parent is lead by example.

Victor · 10-11-2019 6:47pm

splinter65 wrote: »

This is so depressing.....is there any chance at all that you’re joking?

No, I'm trying to offer an insight into the minds of children and the misunderstandings / miscomprehensions that they have. If that helps someone, then the thread has succeeded.

TheValeyard · 10-11-2019 6:52pm

Purple Mountain wrote: »

This is too heavy for a Sunday evening.

Or any evening. Or a morning. Or an afternoon.

cannotlogin · 10-11-2019 6:55pm

My brain would explode if I overanalysised like that!

I was called a big girl as a child (despite always being tiny) and was bottlefed and turned out just fine. :-)

tom1ie · 10-11-2019 7:09pm

Victor wrote: »

For a few years, I've had qualms with phrases will 'big girl', 'good boy', 'that's a lovely outfit', 'I like your hair', etc. I felt they were heightist (discrimination against people based on out-of-range heights) and they associated merit / demerit with things that (especially younger) children can't control. 'Good boy' is also something that people use with dogs. Of course, one can still say 'well done', 'that's great' or 'you've brushed your hair very well and it looks nice'.

My brother and his wife noticed something with their 3 year old. While she understands breastfeeding, her doll always get fed with a bottle and never gets breastfed. So we (I was visiting and prompted the questions) asked a few questions. She thinks that in the years to come, she will become a 'big girl', and never a 'woman', 'lady' or 'mammy' (we explained that becoming a mammy was up to her).

Someone here previously mentioned that their 6 year old became very worried at the thought of his parents dying (child and both parents healthy) and that there would be nobody to look after the child when the parents died. The child couldn't appreciate that they would have his own job / income.

Yes, I appreciate she is only 3, but perhaps people should use more thoughtful and less stereotypical phrases.

PS I also found myself referring a Duplo dog as 'he'.

They're children. They need to know when they've done something well or when they've done something wrong.
They're not born knowing this.
They are not young adults.
It's the parents jobs to install the ideas of right and wrong in the child, and one way to do this is to encourage them when they've done something right, "good girl/boy- your a big girl/boy now aren't you"
And then to let them know when they've done something unacceptable.

When you say people should use more thoughtfull and less stereotypical phrases, what are you referring to?
The height? As in your a big girl now.....
The gender classification? Boy/girl?

Heckler · 10-11-2019 7:14pm

Victor wrote: »

For a few years, I've had qualms with phrases will 'big girl', 'good boy', 'that's a lovely outfit', 'I like your hair', etc. I felt they were heightist (discrimination against people based on out-of-range heights) and they associated merit / demerit with things that (especially younger) children can't control. 'Good boy' is also something that people use with dogs. Of course, one can still say 'well done', 'that's great' or 'you've brushed your hair very well and it looks nice'.

My brother and his wife noticed something with their 3 year old. While she understands breastfeeding, her doll always get fed with a bottle and never gets breastfed. So we (I was visiting and prompted the questions) asked a few questions. She thinks that in the years to come, she will become a 'big girl', and never a 'woman', 'lady' or 'mammy' (we explained that becoming a mammy was up to her).

Someone here previously mentioned that their 6 year old became very worried at the thought of his parents dying (child and both parents healthy) and that there would be nobody to look after the child when the parents died. The child couldn't appreciate that they would have his own job / income.

Yes, I appreciate she is only 3, but perhaps people should use more thoughtful and less stereotypical phrases.

PS I also found myself referring a Duplo dog as 'he'.

Either top class wumming or you need mental health. With your post count......Get help.

farmchoice · 11-11-2019 12:39pm

Victor wrote: »

No, I'm trying to offer an insight into the minds of children and the misunderstandings / miscomprehensions that they have. If that helps someone, then the thread has succeeded.

do you mind if i ask, do you have children yourself?

splinter65 · 11-11-2019 12:53pm

quote="Victor;111735538"]No, I'm trying to offer an insight into the minds of children and the misunderstandings / miscomprehensions that they have. If that helps someone, then the thread has succeeded.[/quote]

It’s ludicrous. A child of 3 isn’t displaying ambition to be a mother or aspiring to breast feed and be a “woman” and you see this as a cause for concern somehow.
A child of 3.
That’s not a miscomprehension or a misunderstanding. That’s a 3 year old behaving normally.
There’s cause for concern ok but not for the child I’m afraid.

Neyite · 11-11-2019 5:01pm

My son has no concept of what becoming an adult means beyond what he sees in the home. He might ask me if I'll be a granny someday but not make the connection that in order for me to become one, he will need to have a baby with a wife or a girlfriend and then he's all 'ewwww no!"

. He's seven.

I became much more aware of gendered stereotypes though when I had my baby, and it's one of those things that when you see it, it's almost like you can't unsee it.

Did you see this clip of a BBC (I think ) programme. It's very interesting - they swapped the clothes of babies and toddlers so boys were wearing girl clothes and girls were put in boy clothes and had various adults interact with them and found that they played very differently with the babies based on what gender they believed them to be. I'm sure most adults would speak to boys and girls differently too - such as telling a boy he looks smart while being more likely to tell a girl in the same situation they look pretty.

mariaalice · 12-11-2019 10:05am

Only slightly related, one of my sisters would not let anyone tell her daughter that she was pretty because of she wanted her to be praised for effort and skills not her looks. I thought it was a bit strange at the time but the child is now an adult in her twenties and very grounded, normal and has a great relationship with her mother.

shesty · 12-11-2019 11:04am

mariaalice wrote: »

Only slightly related, one of my sisters would not let anyone tell her daughter that she was pretty because of she wanted her to be praised for effort and skills not her looks. I thought it was a bit strange at the time but the child is now an adult in her twenties and very grounded, normal and has a great relationship with her mother.

It's only when you have daughters that you realise how much stereotyping is thrown at kids from birth.Right down to silly stuff like clothes in shops....boys get red, blue, orange, green, black, brown, loads of colours.....girls get pink and purple.And some white.With bunnies and sparkles and flowers.And then they turn 4 or 5 and clothes become mini teen clothes...mini skirts, crop tops, and other clothes in synthetic material that personally I find completely unsuitable.You have to go out of your way to find other colours and materials that let them just be kids and not mini 15 year olds.And don't even get started on TV - ads for girls toys are sparkles and rainbows,dolls and animals, jewellery-boys get everything else.It is really wrong when you hear your three year old saying things like only boys wear trousers, or girls can't play with a tool set.It's all around them and we are so inured to it that we don't notice anymore.

I know I get annoyed as I said before partly because of my own career choice and how that has shaped my views.But yes, I would also prefer if people praised my daughters for their efforts and achievements and not the dress they chose that morning.

lawred2 · 12-11-2019 11:07am

shesty wrote: »

It's only when you have daughters that you realise how much stereotyping is thrown at kids from birth.Right down to silly stuff like clothes in shops....boys get red, blue, orange, green, black, brown, loads of colours.....girls get pink and purple.And some white.With bunnies and sparkles and flowers.And then they turn 4 or 5 and clothes become mini teen clothes...mini skirts, crop tops, and other clothes in synthetic material that personally I find completely unsuitable.You have to go out of your way to find other colours and materials that let them just be kids and not mini 15 year olds.And don't even get started on TV - ads for girls toys are sparkles and rainbows,dolls and animals, jewellery-boys get everything else.It is really wrong when you hear your three year old saying things like only boys wear trousers, or girls can't play with a tool set.It's all around them and we are so inured to it that we don't notice anymore.

I know I get annoyed as I said before partly because of my own career choice and how that has shaped my views.But yes, I would also prefer if people praised my daughters for their efforts and achievements and not the dress they chose that morning.

Are you claiming that it's an either or situation? that people only think to comment on the dress and never the efforts and achievements? Can it not be both?

lawred2 · 12-11-2019 11:08am

mariaalice wrote: »

Only slightly related, one of my sisters would not let anyone tell her daughter that she was pretty because of she wanted her to be praised for effort and skills not her looks. I thought it was a bit strange at the time but the child is now an adult in her twenties and very grounded, normal and has a great relationship with her mother.

correlation does not equal causation

AirAmp2019 · 12-11-2019 11:09am

OP - there are some great books that help around gender and people dying on myhighershelf.com/

I think people applying gender so heavily will fade out over time. Just 20 years ago, it was always a case of being careful to use gender properly and not say "it" when referring to a person, rather using "she" or "he" correctly, so its a learned behaviour that will take time to change.

As previous posters said, advertisement has a lot to answer for too. I wouldn't worry too much about what other people around you are doing, you can only influence your own actions and the actions of your own children and ensure they are strong characters by not being too influenced by what others are doing.

drunkmonkey · 12-11-2019 11:15am

Pretty simple gender bias in our house, my 2yr old daughter has two bigger brothers not much older, Monday to Friday she's dressed in their old clothes jeans, Batman t-shirts etc. Then mammy get hold of her at the weekend and suddenly she's all dressed in pink dresses and unicorn prints.
So yea you have this little princess thing going on but it's coming from women and being enforced by women.

Neyite · 12-11-2019 12:51pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Are you claiming that it's an either or situation? that people only think to comment on the dress and never the efforts and achievements? Can it not be both?

Even if you try to modify gender stereotypes and keep your house as gender neutral as you can once they get to school you can see the influence creep in from all sorts of angles like their friends or their teachers. We had a toy kitchen. He liked my little pony stuff. But also dinosaurs and cars. Now he's at a school where only boys get invited to boys parties and the girls get invited to girls parties and it's a ridiculous rule that everyone local follows.

farmchoice · 12-11-2019 12:59pm

Neyite wrote: »

Even if you try to modify gender stereotypes and keep your house as gender neutral as you can once they get to school you can see the influence creep in from all sorts of angles like their friends or their teachers. We had a toy kitchen. He liked my little pony stuff. But also dinosaurs and cars. Now he's at a school where only boys get invited to boys parties and the girls get invited to girls parties and it's a ridiculous rule that everyone local follows.

the rule around here is no invitations will be given out in school unless you invite either the entire class or for a girl to invite all the girls and for a boy to invite all the boys. its to stop individual kids not being invited but at the same time to allow the patents to host a party that does not involve inviting 30 kids.

personally i think its the best solution to a tricky problem.

RocketRaccoon · 12-11-2019 1:02pm

Why are posts being deleted from this thread with no explanation?

12-11-2019 1:06pm

I would be absolutely shocked if this thread was actually for real.

I, for my own sanity's sake, refuse to believe that people actually think like the OP states.

If it was true.... jesus wept.

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 12-11-2019 1:08pm

It's Victor. Look at his post count, most of it is drivel. Just like this thread.

lawred2 · 12-11-2019 1:10pm

Neyite wrote: »

Even if you try to modify gender stereotypes and keep your house as gender neutral as you can once they get to school you can see the influence creep in from all sorts of angles like their friends or their teachers. We had a toy kitchen. He liked my little pony stuff. But also dinosaurs and cars. Now he's at a school where only boys get invited to boys parties and the girls get invited to girls parties and it's a ridiculous rule that everyone local follows.

Actually the boy party/girl party thing is something I see with our two young lads.. and I had the same bemusement when we were organising one for our young lad a couple of weeks ago. Missus said the invites were just for the boys.. I queried it

And the real reason behind it, where we are, is simply cost... the kids are all having playcentre parties - and the mums all agreed in their class whatsapp groups that inviting over 30 kids to parties was just too costly.. school has a totally understandable policy that they will facilitate party invites only in these three circumstances

the entire class
all the boys
all the girls

otherwise the party is a private matter

so the mums have decided that parties are all girls or all boys..

sucks but there you go...

lawred2 · 12-11-2019 1:11pm

farmchoice wrote: »

the rule around here is no invitations will be given out in school unless you invite either the entire class or for a girl to invite all the girls and for a boy to invite all the boys. its to stop individual kids not being invited but at the same time to allow the patents to host a party that does not involve inviting 30 kids.

personally i think its the best solution to a tricky problem.

you summarised it quicker than I did

maybe our kids go to the same school

bladespin · 12-11-2019 1:15pm

So proud of my eldest lad, he's a good boy, daddy's little man, I showed him this thread and he said - 'Oh FFS', I tutted but feel I've done a great job.

lawred2 · 12-11-2019 1:16pm

bladespin wrote: »

So proud of my eldest lad, he's a good boy, daddy's little man, I showed him this thread and he said - 'Oh FFS', I tutted but feel I've done a great job.

Mango Joe · 12-11-2019 1:26pm

I saw a thread on Reddit yesterday where a 19 yr old waitress spoke to a 3 yr old child at the restaurant table she was managing about whether the child could have a lollipop.

So she says something like "Oh you can have a lolly if Daddy says you can"

- This incited a frenzied reaction from the mans wife who screamed at the waitress did she just call her husband Daddy?!?! Before calling her a slut, formally complained to the Restaurants management etc

The opening post here reminds me of this as all of the lines between rationale, logic and sensibility have been blurred into an irritating mess.

Young childrens psyches, outlooks and final mental states in adulthood are not set in an instant during one event, they're shaped and moulded very, very gradually over a long (and hopefully happy) childhood, under the benevolent eye of their parent or guardian.

Midster · 12-11-2019 1:37pm

For heavens sake!!!! Stop being such a snowflake!!!

All kids really want is guidance and praise, it really doesn’t matter in what form it comes, fact every parent is different is what makes us all different.

There seems to be a great push these days to push parents into all being the same, all treating there kids the same. I have to be honest, it makes me feel sick inside.

Neyite · 12-11-2019 1:38pm

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Why are posts being deleted from this thread with no explanation?

I deleted posts from people like yourself who have no interest in the discussion and haven't added anything except to disrupt the discussion.

12-11-2019 1:43pm

Neyite wrote: »

found that they played very differently with the babies based on what gender they believed them to be.

shesty wrote: »

three year old saying things like only boys wear trousers, or girls can't play with a tool set.

I have tried hard not to fall into that myself with my own kids. I try to do exactly the same things with all of them as each other. Regardless of whether they are stereotypically boy things girl things or neutral things.

Of course that is guided a little by the kids themselves. I am not going to force them to do certain things just because a sibling did it. I make sure they try everything and engage a little - and I am guided by them as to what they are interested in revisiting after that.

Generally though I have noticed little difference between them so far. And I am just as likely to be found in the kitchen baking cookies with my 9 year old daughter as I am to be out in the shed showing her how to wire things or down with a friend in the midlands who teaches me and her how to shoot rifles. And I will do all of the above with my 5 year old boy over the next 4 years too.

It is fun when a grown man can not wire a plug in their house and I get to ask them if they would like me or my little daughter to do it for them

Big Girl, etc.

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