Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

P.Walnuts · 06-11-2019 03:21PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Once again. Please point out where I have generalised. Thank you.

Are you capable of reading your own posts?

sbsquarepants · 06-11-2019 03:23PM

martingriff wrote: »

These 2 should becoming nothings to people instead they are getting 2 much coverage

I think it's in no one's interest to allow scum like this to fade into the background now that they've exposed themselves.

KWAG2019 · 06-11-2019 03:40PM

Leaving aside the issue of the justice system and the urgent reform of the dominant ideology which has created the sentencing and parole regime we have endured the discussion is moving on to other aspects of this. To me there are a few things that need to be looked at.
These children had all finished national school and were in second level. They all had experience of years of anti bullying programs. There seems to be a major system failure of such programs when the isolation experienced before the murder was so long and so widespread. The murder seems to be an out working of that isolation. Please read this carefully: I am talking about a national system wide program not a school or schools. There may be more terribly isolated suffering children out there.

Access to violent porn. I don’t know if everything I read is true but Boy A had this and Boy B didn’t. Boy B had lost two smartphones? Losing a phone wouldn’t necessarily mean sites visited couldn’t be checked. I believe smartphone usage by NS and early years teenagers is at the root of a lot of grief. Teens by definition do not have developed the empathy and inhibitions of adults. Online chat is contextless and personless and social media enables and amplifies whatever trend is there. You can’t blame children for this: you can see it anywhere. You can ask why have children such devices in the first place. They enable unsupervised access.

I’m not saying there aren’t other issues. These are what hit me. And that house should be CPOed and demolished.

shesty · 06-11-2019 04:22PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

I dont think most rational teenagers would see someone as 'having to go' .That is a very extreme end of reacting to disliking someone, and not normal.For adults or teens.

iamwhoiam · 06-11-2019 04:25PM

shesty wrote: »

I dont think most rational teenagers would see someone as 'having to go' .That is a very extreme end of reacting to disliking someone, and not normal.For adults or teens.

Of course they wouldn’t . These two boys were an exception , a nasty , murdering , abusive and thuggish exception

mrjoneill · 06-11-2019 04:26PM

unkel wrote: »

So boy A is now on the sex offenders list. I seem to remember there is a duration for this, depending on the severity of the crime? If so, presumably in this case for life?

Let's presume he at some stage is released and gets a new identity. I would then presume he is placed again on the sex offenders list under his new name?

These sex offenders lists are not public?

Will this boy be forced to have psychiatric treatment during his detention? Or chemical castration?

Apologies for what seems like a random list of questions, but I am concerned about what happens if / when he is released. I'm usually fairly liberal in my views, but someone who has done what he has should never be let out imho unless we are near certain he won't do it again.

I understand Animal A will get a lifetime on Sex Offenders Register. What I'm not sure on has this animal received a life sentence or a reviewable one after 8 yrs.

jackboy · 06-11-2019 04:30PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Have you statistics or links or proof that a sizeable amount of young people are shallow and mean spirited ?

Thankfully the young people around me and who I deal with are far from shallow and mean spirited . There are large amount of young people talking part in caring activities and volunteering . Give them some credit

She was subjected to horrific bullying. She was isolated and almost no one her age would interact with her in or out of school. Of course not all teenagers are bad, not even close. However there is a serious issue with bullying in irish schools and there have been lots of suicides down to this. The bullies put the target on her back and it is likely that she would be alive today if that bullying had not occured.

iamwhoiam · 06-11-2019 04:32PM

jackboy wrote: »

She was subjected to horrific bullying. She was isolated and almost no one her age would interact with her in or out of school. Of course not all teenagers are bad, not even close. However there is a serious issue with bullying in irish schools and there have been lots of suicides down to this. The bullies put the target on her back and it is likely that she would be alive today if that bullying had not occured.

Yes. I know that and it was horrendous . My objection with the poster was the generalisation that it was “ society at large” were like that .

The very sad part was that a teacher pre warned her mum and the mum told the school in advance that Ana was vulnerable . My question would be what did the school do to prevent such awful bullying . No child should suffer it and schools need to gain a handle on it

mrjoneill · 06-11-2019 04:36PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Of course they wouldn’t . These two boys were an exception , a nasty , murdering , abusive and thuggish exception

Yes indeed there is something extraordinary savage about both of them & how cunning they have avoided their responsibility & to telling the truth. Animal B maintains his innocence in spite of what was a plan to lure Ana to her death. To lure her so far from her home to an abandoned house only adds to his culpability. Animal A grudgingly accepts he did the murder but not the sexual assault as if it was a stranger did it despite the forensics indicating he was the one. Society needs to be protected from such twisted evil. As I stated earlier I hope their release will be when infirm & using walking frames. Even Animal A grandfather does not accept his "pet" is the one responsible for this awful evil

mrjoneill · 06-11-2019 04:42PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes. I know that and it was horrendous . My objection with the poster was the generalisation that it was “ society at large” were like that .

The very sad part was that a teacher pre warned her mum and the mum told the school in advance that Ana was vulnerable . My question would be what did the school do to prevent such awful bullying . No child should suffer it and schools need to gain a handle on it

The school did very little if nothing at all. It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left. I also understand Animal A & B were the more overt edge of the bullying. That is the reason Ana mother was so alarmed when she heard Animal B called to the house for her. Yes indeed there is many searching questions for the school to answer & the same for her class peers. I have no doubt because of the bullying Animal A & B though of her as worthless.

Hannibal_Smith · 06-11-2019 05:12PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Once again. Please point out where I have generalised. Thank you.

Go back and read over your own posts.

Odhinn · 06-11-2019 05:32PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

Errant "moral panic" nonsense. There'd be dozens of similar killings every year were that the case.

NewClareman · 06-11-2019 05:56PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

That's no surprise and certainly a lot of people on this thread suspected this would happen.

I wonder what grounds he'll be appealing on.

Well for a start:

Gregg McCrary, a behavioural criminologist and former FBI criminal profiler, has worked on many such investigations. “Typically there is a dominant offender and then a secondary offender who is subservient and follows their lead. They take direction from the dominant offender,” he says.

“Evidence indicates that Boy B was subservient to Boy A....
There is also evidence Boy B was and remains in fear of his co-accused.”

Quoting above from the same IT article I quoted earlier.

The judge stated that there was no evidence that he was involved in the attack, or knew in advance she was to be sexually assaulted. Of course the fact that he did nothing to help her was reprehensible. However, he was a child and might well have been panicked and in fear.

storker · 06-11-2019 06:00PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

. It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left.

Disgusting little scumbags.

NewClareman · 06-11-2019 06:09PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

The school did very little if nothing at all. It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left. I also understand Animal A & B were the more overt edge of the bullying. That is the reason Ana mother was so alarmed when she heard Animal B called to the house for her. Yes indeed there is many searching questions for the school to answer & the same for her class peers. I have no doubt because of the bullying Animal A & B though of her as worthless.

Exactly, a lot of questions to be asked of the school, Ana’s peers, and their parents. However, it is much easier to just blame the ‘Animals’, rather than considering how things were allowed to get this far.

If, as suggested, a brother of Boy B was assaulted, then the various other parties implicated are still not living up to their responsibilities.

Hannibal_Smith · 06-11-2019 06:12PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Well for a start:

Gregg McCrary, a behavioural criminologist and former FBI criminal profiler, has worked on many such investigations. “Typically there is a dominant offender and then a secondary offender who is subservient and follows their lead. They take direction from the dominant offender,” he says.

“Evidence indicates that Boy B was subservient to Boy A....
There is also evidence Boy B was and remains in fear of his co-accused.”

Quoting above from the same IT article I quoted earlier.

The judge stated that there was no evidence that he was involved in the attack, or knew in advance she was to be sexually assaulted. Of course the fact that he did nothing to help her was reprehensible. However, he was a child and might well have been panicked and in fear.

Thanks for that.

Just to say Boy B didn't receive a sentence for the sexual attack. He's also never said what happened. Does that suggest he's still in fear of Boy A?

splinter65 · 06-11-2019 06:30PM

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Are you capable of reading your own posts?

Just point out to me please where I said all young people were like this. It’s not difficult. Thank you.

splinter65 · 06-11-2019 06:33PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Go back and read over your own posts.

Quoting isn’t difficult. Please quote my post where I said all young people were like this. If you can’t then I’ll accept your apology.

iamwhoiam · 06-11-2019 06:39PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Quoting isn’t difficult. Please quote my post where I said all young people were like this. If you can’t then I’ll accept your apology.

This was your post . Did you mean all of society ? Some of society ? Your post mentions “ this is now a society “ which is a massive over generalisation . Because you and I are part of society and so are the many wonderful and kind young people and you lumped us all into “ this society “

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t think a lot of people can grasp the whole picture here.
I can’t anyway.
This is now a society where humans don’t have any value or worth just by dint of being humans.
In order to have a worth now you have to have the mass approval of your peers.
re.

Spanish Eyes · 06-11-2019 06:42PM

Truth is, apart from the incoming appeal, this will be totally forgotten by most in a week or two.

Victims need so much support, so sorry for the parents and family of Ana. Their pain will never end, but it’s all about the perpetrators and their potential success in an appeal now.

Free Legal Aid too I suspect. But anyway.

BattleCorp · 06-11-2019 06:44PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Truth is, apart from the incoming appeal, this will be totally forgotten by most in a week or two.

Victims need so much support, so sorry for the parents and family of Ana. Their pain will never end, but it’s all about the perpetrators and their potential success in an appeal now.

Free Legal Aid too I suspect. But anyway.

You needn't suspect at all. It will be free legal aid.

careless sherpa · 06-11-2019 06:57PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Truth is, apart from the incoming appeal, this will be totally forgotten by most in a week or two.

Victims need so much support, so sorry for the parents and family of Ana. Their pain will never end, but it’s all about the perpetrators and their potential success in an appeal now.

Free Legal Aid too I suspect. But anyway.

In the year between the murder and the trial were the two boys still residing in the town? Could her parents have had to meet them out and about?

iamwhoiam · 06-11-2019 07:03PM

Here is a poem read by Anas parents at her funeral . What a lovely family they are
RIP Ana

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1106/1089053-ana-kriegel-tribute/

skallywag · 06-11-2019 07:18PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Truth is, apart from the incoming appeal, this will be totally forgotten by most in a week or two.

I certainly would not think so.

I can still remember the Jamie Bolger case quite vividly, and I did not even have kids myself at that time. Most folk I know are of the same persuasion. Children killing other children is extremely rare in our part of the world and tends to remain in one's memory.

P.Walnuts · 06-11-2019 07:19PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Not to them. Not in the world of a lot of modern Irish teenagers. Nobody liked her. She had to go.

splinter65 wrote: »

No it’s not. There’s quite a sizeable amount of very very very shallow young people who cannot appraise others in any other way other then social media levels

splinter65 wrote: »

Just point out to me please where I said all young people were like this. It’s not difficult. Thank you.

You said "a lot" and "quite a sizeable amount". That's a generalization, you don't need to say all to generalize.

If I said a sizeable amount of Irish people are drunks, that would be rightly considered a generalization. And a lazy one. Just like your posts.

tayto lover · 06-11-2019 07:20PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Well for a start:

Gregg McCrary, a behavioural criminologist and former FBI criminal profiler, has worked on many such investigations. “Typically there is a dominant offender and then a secondary offender who is subservient and follows their lead. They take direction from the dominant offender,” he says.

“Evidence indicates that Boy B was subservient to Boy A....
There is also evidence Boy B was and remains in fear of his co-accused.”

Quoting above from the same IT article I quoted earlier.

The judge stated that there was no evidence that he was involved in the attack, or knew in advance she was to be sexually assaulted. Of course the fact that he did nothing to help her was reprehensible. However, he was a child and might well have been panicked and in fear.

You could also believe that Boy B was a lot more intelligent and was manipulative thus cajoling Boy A all the way to commit the foul deed.

iamwhoiam · 06-11-2019 07:27PM

tayto lover wrote: »

You could also believe that Boy B was a lot more intelligent and was manipulative thus cajoling Boy A all the way to commit the foul deed.

I have often thought that B was the master puppeteer . A cute , intelligent manipulator perhaps

Hannibal_Smith · 06-11-2019 07:32PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Quoting isn’t difficult. Please quote my post where I said all young people were like this. If you can’t then I’ll accept your apology.

Neither is reading. It wasn't an apology I sent you

I've no interest in one of your inane bickering sessions

Nameless_2019 · 06-11-2019 08:30PM

NewClareman wrote: »

“Evidence indicates that Boy B was subservient to Boy A....
There is also evidence Boy B was and remains in fear of his co-accused.”

Quoting above from the same IT article I quoted earlier.

This needs to be taken in context. The evidence referred to here in the IT article is the testimony of Boy B's own father.

scudzilla · 06-11-2019 08:33PM

It's in cases like this i would have no hesitation with the death sentence, an irrefutable open and shut case.

Hand on heart i would have no questions at all on pulling the trigger on Animal A

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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