Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

salmocab · 01-11-2019 01:12PM

jmreire wrote: »

tayto lover wrote: »

Well in this case, we will never know, as we don't have the death penalty.But as I stated in an earlier post, we have all the fact's and figure's about convicted murderer's getting the death sentence..and the point that it has not stopped the murder's is used as an argument against it ( plus of course the fact that an innocent person may be executed, and I'm pretty sure that it has happened in the past ) But what we don't know is how many murder's were prevented by having the death penalty in a Country? Believe it or not...the prospect of an imminent hanging concentrate's the mind wonderfully.. ( quote Samuel Johnston ) Although I can't prove it..I'm pretty sure that it has prevented many death's. This does not make me an advocate of the death penalty..quite the opposite, as I'm 100% against it.

Where that falls apart though is people committing crimes don’t consider the sentence as imminent. The only data available is comparing countries with and without capital punishment and comparing the murder rates. This shows that death penalty’s are no real deterrent. It may have prevented some deaths over the years but it’s completely unquantifiable unless someone checks out the murder rates in a country like America before and after the reintroduced of execution.

banie01 · 01-11-2019 02:06PM

To those posting about the death penalty and bringing it back?

Do you honestly think that were Ireland to reintroduce it?
Despite its being completely at odds with our European and International obligations...

That it would be applied to 2 adolescent children? Despite what the age criminal responsibility may be?

Can any of the death penalty or indeed 3 strike or similar proponents, lay out the evidence that supports these harsher penalties having any impact on crime rates or recidivism?

tuxy · 01-11-2019 02:13PM

banie01 wrote: »

Can any of the death penalty or indeed 3 strike or similar proponents, lay out the evidence that supports these harsher penalties having any impact on crime rates or recidivism?

The data is there, it does not lower crime rates. If anything it harms society.
Some people just feel better once there is some form of revenge they think is adequate. You only have to read about innocent relatives of criminals being attacked to see this.

Thoie · 01-11-2019 02:25PM

The only time recently I've felt the death penalty would be warranted was in the case of Josef Fritzl. He was an elderly man, with failing health. There is no chance of rehabilitation (IMO) - he'd be 89 by the time he'd be up for parole if he lives that long. If you feel that prison is for rehabilitation rather than punishment, then what is the point of keeping him there?

o1s1n · 01-11-2019 02:28PM

Do people really want to live in a country where the state has the power to execute them?

I know I don't.

banie01 · 01-11-2019 02:29PM

tuxy wrote: »

The data is there, it does not lower crime rates. If anything it harms society.
Some people just feel better once there is some form of revenge they think is adequate. You only have to read about innocent relatives of criminals being attacked to see this.

I agree tuxy, all the evidence points directly towards societal harm from Death penalty and prison as retribution rather than rehabilition.

If you treat people like animals, one cannot be at all surprised if they bite.

Just because certain people commit heinous acts, does not IMO mean that society should retaliate with a like for like level of judicial violence.

salmocab · 01-11-2019 02:34PM

banie01 wrote: »

To those posting about the death penalty and bringing it back?

Do you honestly think that were Ireland to reintroduce it?
Despite its being completely at odds with our European and International obligations...

That it would be applied to 2 adolescent children? Despite what the age criminal responsibility may be?

Can any of the death penalty or indeed 3 strike or similar proponents, lay out the evidence that supports these harsher penalties having any impact on crime rates or recidivism?

Not sure many are actually calling for the reintroduction of the death penalty it’s more either a reactionary call based on this case or debating whether it would be a deterrent at all. Even the people calling it in the former set of circumstances are most likely just lashing out as opposed to actually thinking it should be brought back.
That all said there is no chance of it being brought back anyway so it’s an academic debate nothing more.

Kevhog1988 · 01-11-2019 02:36PM

When is the actual sentencing of the two boys likely to happen?

Gadgetman496 · 01-11-2019 02:37PM

theemigrant wrote: »

When is the actual sentencing of the two boys likely to happen?

Next Tuesday

banie01 · 01-11-2019 02:39PM

salmocab wrote: »

Not sure many are actually calling for the reintroduction of the death penalty it’s more either a reactionary call based on this case or debating whether it would be a deterrent at all. Even the people calling it in the former set of circumstances are most likely just lashing out as opposed to actually thinking it should be brought back.
That all said there is no chance of it being brought back anyway so it’s an academic debate nothing more.

I get that Salmo, the reaction to the horror visited on Ana is visceral.
I totally understand the rage, indeed I share it.

But the knee-jerk to seek an eye for an eye, to call for the death penalty is akin to seeking a job for a lynching.

Even if Ireland had a death penalty, this particular scrotes would be and are still entitled to due process.
They have a right of appeal that will no doubt be exhausted.

And beyond all that, are the people calling for the D.P really ok with Ireland sanctioning the judicial murder of children?

tuxy · 01-11-2019 02:42PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Next Tuesday

This Tuesday(I get this one wrong all the time and it really confuses people)

KWAG2019 · 01-11-2019 02:51PM

tuxy wrote: »

This Tuesday(I get this one wrong all the time and it really confuses people)

You were right the first time. And the second! The use of “this” meaning “next” and “next” meaning Tuesday week is one of mad linguistic contortions we have. Next Tuesday is...well the next Tuesday along.

01-11-2019 03:05PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

I pray every day that those two boys suffer a horrendous life;

God bless Mammy, God bless Daddy, God bless Fido and Snowball the Rabbit. Oh, and God, please make those lads suffer for the rest of their lives. Amen.

01-11-2019 03:22PM

o1s1n wrote: »

Do people really want to live in a country where the state has the power to execute them?

I know I don't.

One misjudgement regarding the death penalty is one too many. There has been a multitude of people killed who were later found to be innocent.

"Sh*t we're sorry about that" isn't good enough. It's flawed and has proven to be. So many people love to say "hang them" nearly automatically in any case, I wonder how they'd feel if someone belonging to them was wrongly put to death and it transpired after the fact.

tuxy · 01-11-2019 03:26PM

Omackeral wrote: »

One misjudgement regarding the death penalty is one too many. There has been a multitude of people killed who were later found to be innocent.

"Sh*t we're sorry about that" isn't good enough. It's flawed and has proven to be. So many people love to say "hang them" nearly automatically in any case, I wonder how they'd feel if someone belonging to them was wrongly put to death and it transpired after the fact.

If it actually was a deterrent and very few mistakes were made then maybe there might be an argument for it. However it is not a deterrent so I don't see how anyone could be in favour of it unless they get satisfaction out of making the world more miserable.

salmocab · 01-11-2019 03:27PM

tuxy wrote: »

If it actually was a deterrent and very few mistakes were made then maybe there might be an argument for it. However it is not a deterrent so I don't see how anyone could be in favour of it unless they get satisfaction out of making the world more miserable.

Very few mistakes?

KWAG2019 · 01-11-2019 03:28PM

Omackeral wrote: »

One misjudgement regarding the death penalty is one too many. There has been a multitude of people killed who were later found to be innocent.

"Sh*t we're sorry about that" isn't good enough. It's flawed and has proven to be. So many people love to say "hang them" nearly automatically in any case, I wonder how they'd feel if someone belonging to them was wrongly put to death and it transpired after the fact.

There isn’t any reasonable debate necessary about the death penalty; it’s settled for the reasons you gave. There is need for a much wider and searching examination about the criminal justice system. Much wider than the interest groups who have created it and brought it to its current state would feel comfortable about and to be done over the amplified groupthink beloved of them.

buttercups88 · 01-11-2019 03:56PM

I really hope the judge gives them a real sentence because until children of all ages start to see there is consequences to their actions things are going to get a lot worse.

Already we see gangs of youths causing mayhem and there is no deterrent because criminals have more rights than ever before in case their feelings are hurt.

jmreire · 01-11-2019 05:55PM

salmocab wrote: »

jmreire wrote: »

Where that falls apart though is people committing crimes don’t consider the sentence as imminent. The only data available is comparing countries with and without capital punishment and comparing the murder rates. This shows that death penalty’s are no real deterrent. It may have prevented some deaths over the years but it’s completely unquantifiable unless someone checks out the murder rates in a country like America before and after the reintroduced of execution.

This is purely a hypothetical discussion, but that's the problem Salmocab, it's not possible to quantify the Nr of murder's that were NOT committed because of the DP in that Country. So we can't say for sure if the DP works or not..

salmocab · 01-11-2019 06:26PM

jmreire wrote: »

salmocab wrote: »

This is purely a hypothetical discussion, but that's the problem Salmocab, it's not possible to quantify the Nr of murder's that were NOT committed because of the DP in that Country. So we can't say for sure if the DP works or not..

Well we can compare countries with and without also countries that reintroduce before and after. I would think the data suggests it doesn’t but stats alone are obviously raw. Personally apart from what I think on other aspects of it, I don’t think it’s a deterrent as criminals don’t think they’re getting caught anyway.

Road-Hog · 01-11-2019 06:27PM

banie01 wrote: »

I get that Salmo, the reaction to the horror visited on Ana is visceral.
I totally understand the rage, indeed I share it.

But the knee-jerk to seek an eye for an eye, to call for the death penalty is akin to seeking a job for a lynching.

Even if Ireland had a death penalty, this particular scrotes would be and are still entitled to due process.
They have a right of appeal that will no doubt be exhausted.

And beyond all that, are the people calling for the D.P really ok with Ireland sanctioning the judicial murder of children?

Can I ask what the eff is a ‘scrote’ and where it originated from.....I know it’s probably meant to be derogatory and insulting but it is too soft a term to describe these two utter abominations........excuses for ‘boys’.......how they evolved to be capable of inflicting such cruelty and them post their actions to continue describing Ana in such vile terms is just beyond comprehension

tuxy · 01-11-2019 06:41PM

Road-Hog wrote: »

Can I ask what the eff is a ‘scrote’ and where it originated from.....I know it’s probably meant to be derogatory and insulting but it is too soft a term to describe these two utter abominations........excuses for ‘boys’.......how they evolved to be capable of inflicting such cruelty and them post their actions to continue describing Ana in such vile terms is just beyond comprehension

I don't think the psychological reports will be made available to the general public but if they were most people could be horrified to read they they probably are not much different from what with be considered normal teenagers as is often the findings in these cases. Just another note to add, as if the case wasn't horrible enough as it is.

Stick to the sun or the mirror if you want all manor of derogatory terms used to try to distance the general population from horrible acts carried out by fairly normal people.

Road-Hog · 01-11-2019 07:40PM

tuxy wrote: »

I don't think the psychological reports will be made available to the general public but if they were most people could be horrified to read they they probably are not much different from what with be considered normal teenagers as is often the findings in these cases. Just another note to add, as if the case wasn't horrible enough as it is.

Stick to the sun or the mirror if you want all manor of derogatory terms used to try to distance the general population from horrible acts carried out by fairly normal people.

Sorry I’ve no intention of reading tabloids to be kept up to date on the latest derogatory slang words for scumbags.

Are you seriously sugggesting that the average teenagers today are only slightly more sane than these monsters.....?

KWAG2019 · 01-11-2019 07:48PM

tuxy wrote: »

I don't think the psychological reports will be made available to the general public but if they were most people could be horrified to read they they probably are not much different from what with be considered normal teenagers as is often the findings in these cases. Just another note to add, as if the case wasn't horrible enough as it is.

Stick to the sun or the mirror if you want all manor of derogatory terms used to try to distance the general population from horrible acts carried out by fairly normal people.

There is no reason or need to make them available; they are relevant only to the extent that they may indicate courses of treatment or education. It’s possible that they won’t have that but I think they probably do.

Whatever the professional findings the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would have no problem saying that neither of the convicted is normal. Normal children do not murder other children.

tuxy · 01-11-2019 07:53PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There is no reason or need to make them available; they are relevant only to the extent that they may indicate courses of treatment or education. It’s possible that they won’t have that but I think they probably do.

Whatever the professional findings the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would have no problem saying that neither of the convicted is normal. Normal children do not murder other children.

True but the finding are probably that they are closer to normal than most people would like to admit. You are right the reports will not be made public and there would probably be no benefit in doing so.

Road-Hog · 01-11-2019 08:34PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

There is no reason or need to make them available; they are relevant only to the extent that they may indicate courses of treatment or education. It’s possible that they won’t have that but I think they probably do.

Whatever the professional findings the “man on the Clapham omnibus” would have no problem saying that neither of the convicted is normal. Normal children do not murder other children.

There are one or two contributors to this mega thread who would like to see the end of the use of the ‘clapham omnibus man’ principle being removed from the Irish legal system....?

KWAG2019 · 01-11-2019 09:51PM

Road-Hog wrote: »

There are one or two contributors to this mega thread who would like to see the end of the use of the ‘clapham omnibus man’ principle being removed from the Irish legal system....?

True. The professions around the legal system have confused their knowledge of and work within it to ownership of it. The wider interest groups who actually create policy are another player who needs to step back. The demoralizing of the police and the undermining of society’s faith in justice are very serious issues.

jmreire · 01-11-2019 11:53PM

tuxy wrote: »

True but the finding are probably that they are closer to normal than most people would like to admit. You are right the reports will not be made public and there would probably be no benefit in doing so.

During their school years, there was nothing noticed by the teacher's to indicate what they were capable of....so they did not "stick out" from the other school kid's. In other words, "Perfectly normal "

CollyFlower · 02-11-2019 12:54AM

jmreire wrote: »

During their school years, there was nothing noticed by the teacher's to indicate what they were capable of....so they did not "stick out" from the other school kid's. In other words, "Perfectly normal "

There's not much that teachers can do about a disruptive student, they have them in class for a year, they're there to teach them, not to look out for psychoct behaviour. There's too much responsibility put on teachers, I think.

Road-Hog · 02-11-2019 06:14AM

CollyFlower wrote: »

There's not much that teachers can do about a disruptive student, they have them in class for a year, they're there to teach them, not to look out for psychoct behaviour. There's too much responsibility put on teachers, I think.

Graham Dwyer obviously got through school and a significant part of his adult life ‘appearing normal’ to most of his peers apart from being narcissistic and obsessed with status. He was able to hide his extremely deviant/perverted/sicko side very well and but for some rare weather events and diligent police/dectective work would probably still be amongst us.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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