Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

31-10-2019 03:36PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I forgot the obvious: how do we find out how many?

PM sent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 31-10-2019 04:39PM

Suckit wrote: »

I would have thought that was very unusual, no?
I would never have dreamed of torturing small animals when I was a kid, and if I had seen anybody pulling wings of butterflies I'm pretty sure I would have given them a wide berth and possibly told any adults.

That would definitely not be considered 'usual' behaviour where I grew up.

Really? Torturing small animals, yes that is fucked. But the bolded would not be particularly unusual unless I grew up with an abnormally messed up cohort of kids and I don’t think I did. I think any adult would be a bit bemused at having that reported to them, to be honest.

And yes, I know butterflies are small animals but I hope people will understand the distinction I’m making.

iamwhoiam · 31-10-2019 04:45PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Really? Torturing small animals, yes that is fucked. But the bolded would not be particularly unusual unless I grew up with an abnormally messed up cohort of kids and I don’t think I did. I think any adult would be a bit bemused at having that reported to them, to be honest.

And yes, I know butterflies are small animals but I hope people will understand the distinction I’m making.

No , I definitely would not have been around kids who pulled wings off butterflies or willingly injured small animals . Even now we have to be kind to spiders according to out little granddaughter .

Suckit · 31-10-2019 05:17PM

I'm sure I may have seen somebody torturing a wasp when I was younger or maybe a fly, but definitely never saw anybody pulling the wings off a butterfly (not that either is less cruel, but a butterfly is fairly big compared to a childs hands, and that would look quite torturous). And as an adult, if a kid came to me and said another kid was doing it, I wouldn't be bemused.
I would just tell them to stay away from that kid.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 31-10-2019 05:34PM

Suckit wrote: »

I'm sure I may have seen somebody torturing a wasp when I was younger or maybe a fly, but definitely never saw anybody pulling the wings off a butterfly (not that either is less cruel, but a butterfly is fairly big compared to a childs hands, and that would look quite torturous). And as an adult, if a kid came to me and said another kid was doing it, I wouldn't be bemused.
I would just tell them to stay away from that kid.

Huh? Some are really small. But castigating a self-centred kid (which all children are) for this somewhat commonplace act is strange to me. Kids who do it tend to be pretty young and unaware of the harm they are causing and just really being inquisitive. As an adult, I’d explain why it’s wrong but I wouldn’t be angry. You’d tell your child to stay away from them? Riiiigght.

iamwhoiam · 31-10-2019 05:46PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Huh? Some are really small. But castigating a self-centred kid (which all children are) for this somewhat commonplace act is strange to me. Kids who do it tend to be pretty young and unaware of the harm they are causing and just really being inquisitive. As an adult, I’d explain why it’s wrong but I wouldn’t be angry. You’d tell your child to stay away from them? Riiiigght.

I have been around kids for 40 years and have yet to see a child little or big pull the wings off a butterfly .

tuxy · 31-10-2019 05:58PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have been around kids for 40 years and have yet to see a child little or big pull the wings off a butterfly .

As a young boy I saw other boys do such things, it was always a brief stage they went through and never progressed to animals, only insects. It seemed to be a curiosity thing and not about inflicting harm.

Suckit · 31-10-2019 06:19PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Huh? Some are really small. But castigating a self-centred kid (which all children are) for this somewhat commonplace act is strange to me. Kids who do it tend to be pretty young and unaware of the harm they are causing and just really being inquisitive. As an adult, I’d explain why it’s wrong but I wouldn’t be angry. You’d tell your child to stay away from them? Riiiigght.

Didn't/wouldn't castigate anyone, but I also don't believe it is a 'commonplace act'. Definitely wasn't when I was growing up (as a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I have never seen it happen), and yes, if a kid came to me to tell me that they had seen another child pulling the wings off a butterfly or being cruel to a small creature, I would assume that the reason the child came to me and told me that was because they didn't like what they saw.

Which would be why I would tell them to stay away from that kid..

Not sure what you're not believing or getting there.

jmreire · 31-10-2019 06:23PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Even in countries with the harshest criminal sentences does not stop people doing the worst things imaginable knowing what will happen if caught

Yes that happen's, but in these Country's, the level of deadly violence is very high. Had this happened in one of these County's, if justice was not seen to be done, the offended Family would do it themselves..the culture there is very different than here in Ireland. But IF the death penalty was legal here, you can be sure there would not be any youngsters planning on murdering any one. Even Hardened criminals would be inclined to think twice, even if they were still prepared to kill.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 31-10-2019 06:31PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have been around kids for 40 years and have yet to see a child little or big pull the wings off a butterfly .

Super.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 31-10-2019 06:33PM

Suckit wrote: »

Didn't/wouldn't castigate anyone, but I also don't believe it is a 'commonplace act'. Definitely wasn't when I was growing up (as a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I have never seen it happen), and yes, if a kid came to me to tell me that they had seen another child pulling the wings off a butterfly or being cruel to a small creature, I would assume that the reason the child came to me and told me that was because they didn't like what they saw.

Which would be why I would tell them to stay away from that kid..

Not sure what you're not believing or getting there.

It’s hypothetical so you don’t know what you’d do in reality. Your kid tells you her/his very best friend did it and that’d be it? Friendship over? Hardly. Talk is cheap.

iamwhoiam · 31-10-2019 06:45PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Super.

Whats that supposed to mean ?

BarryD2 · 31-10-2019 07:04PM

I don't think kids are that much different to when I grew up. And I would have seen groups of lads particularly aged 10-15 picking on small creatures and killing and/or torturing them. I would have shied away myself from that sort of thing but the hard chaws thought little of it. Maybe a curiosity thing, maybe a power trip. And if you view Google as any sort of guide, a quick search will show it still goes on. Humans whether adult or young are quite capable of despicable acts. What separates normal behaviour from that is often quite a thin veneer.

I believe the court should treat these lads severely as they crossed that thin veneer of a line and that must be discouraged at all costs in others.

salmocab · 31-10-2019 08:45PM

jmreire wrote: »

Yes that happen's, but in these Country's, the level of deadly violence is very high. Had this happened in one of these County's, if justice was not seen to be done, the offended Family would do it themselves..the culture there is very different than here in Ireland. But IF the death penalty was legal here, you can be sure there would not be any youngsters planning on murdering any one. Even Hardened criminals would be inclined to think twice, even if they were still prepared to kill.

Surely the fact that countries that have death penalties keep executing people shows that it’s not the deterrent your suggesting it is. People don’t carry out crimes based on what the sentence might be.

KWAG2019 · 31-10-2019 09:32PM

salmocab wrote: »

Surely the fact that countries that have death penalties keep executing people shows that it’s not the deterrent your suggesting it is. People don’t carry out crimes based on what the sentence might be.

But equally penalty points affect speeding etc. Limiting and preempting human misbehavior is an interesting area of exploration.

salmocab · 31-10-2019 09:56PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

But equally penalty points affect speeding etc. Limiting and preempting human misbehavior is an interesting area of exploration.

Undoubtedly but speeding and most things that pick up points are more bad habit than a conscious decision. People take chances constantly and whilst a deterrent is necessary it doesn’t come close to stamping out the offense. I wouldn’t argue that a death penalty would never change any would be murderers mind I just think in most cases people don’t do things thinking they will be caught so don’t worry about the consequences, much as speeders just assume they won’t be passing a camera van.

KWAG2019 · 31-10-2019 10:24PM

salmocab wrote: »

Undoubtedly but speeding and most things that pick up points are more bad habit than a conscious decision. People take chances constantly and whilst a deterrent is necessary it doesn’t come close to stamping out the offense. I wouldn’t argue that a death penalty would never change any would be murderers mind I just think in most cases people don’t do things thinking they will be caught so don’t worry about the consequences, much as speeders just assume they won’t be passing a camera van.

I agree about the death penalty. The argument about it ended with the Guildford 4 and the Birminghsm 6. I think sanctions and deterrents work. For some people. There may be a reluctance to explore why that is in Western societies. It needs exploration.

I should add that the view that punishment is not what is needed should be looked at again. It seems that the human being needs a sense of justice being served by those who have done wrong receiving an equal sanction. Unfairness gnaws at society.

jmreire · 31-10-2019 10:24PM

salmocab wrote: »

Surely the fact that countries that have death penalties keep executing people shows that it’s not the deterrent your suggesting it is. People don’t carry out crimes based on what the sentence might be.

We have all the stat's about Country's having the death penalty, but still having murders being committed, that's cut and dried and used as being the best argument against having the death penalty.....but what we don't know statistically is how many potential murderers were dissuaded from killing some one, because of the death penalty? Now that's an interesting thought.
Would that poor girl's killer's have behaved differently if there was the possibility that they would face the death penalty?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 01-11-2019 04:17AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Whats that supposed to mean ?

It means super. You know, an acknowledgement. You have never seen it happen. I have. In most cases, a parent wouldn’t even hear about it either. Categorisation of a kid as a potential future degenerate for something like that is a tad ridiculous. The dramatics. It’s not setting a dog on fire.

I mean, volchitsa says it’s not normal but then says the bolded:

volchitsa wrote: »

No it's not normal. In fact I gather that deliberate cruelty to animals in children is actually understood nowadays to be a very bad sign that there a risk of future psychological problems.

(To be clear, some limited experimentation like pulling wings off flies, especially in smaller children who haven't yet developed much empathy, doesn't necessarily mean much, but inflicting pain on animals for the sake of inflicting pain is what's concerning.)

That’s what I’m talking about. So anyone who says they’d keep their children away from any child who pulled wings off an insect - ye would in your hoop.

tuxy wrote: »

As a young boy I saw other boys do such things, it was always a brief stage they went through and never progressed to animals, only insects. It seemed to be a curiosity thing and not about inflicting harm.

Yes, thank you. Exactly.

salmocab · 01-11-2019 06:57AM

jmreire wrote: »

We have all the stat's about Country's having the death penalty, but still having murders being committed, that's cut and dried and used as being the best argument against having the death penalty.....but what we don't know statistically is how many potential murderers were dissuaded from killing some one, because of the death penalty? Now that's an interesting thought.
Would that poor girl's killer's have behaved differently if there was the possibility that they would face the death penalty?

Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.

silverharp · 01-11-2019 09:54AM

salmocab wrote: »

Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.

I guess you could create a threshold for guilty that is beyond dispute. If a bank robber for example caught at the scene of a crime has just killed 3 customers and staff , no need for appeals, no need for forensic evidence or passing eye witnesses....
But yeah I would agree that "beyond reasonable doubt" is not a good enough reason to have someone executed though you probably could have a 3 strikes and you are out?

salmocab · 01-11-2019 10:08AM

silverharp wrote: »

I guess you could create a threshold for guilty that is beyond dispute. If a bank robber for example caught at the scene of a crime has just killed 3 customers and staff , no need for appeals, no need for forensic evidence or passing eye witnesses....
But yeah I would agree that "beyond reasonable doubt" is not a good enough reason to have someone executed though you probably could have a 3 strikes and you are out?

The problem there is you have to draw a line that suggests someone is more guilty than another. It could turn out the guy was forced to do it or more people would be killed. It’s just not a thing a state should have the power of.

gozunda · 01-11-2019 10:32AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

They probably also had no insight into detective work . They presumed if not caught red handed no one would know it was them . They made no effort to dump evidence despite having to cross a fast flowing Liffey and lots of growth and brambles etc . They were clueless really and walked right into a trap despite their lies .

That I'm not so sure about. Afaik there was suspicion that Boy B may have had another phone. His father even claimed his son had a habit of losing phones. Plus the backpack boy B was seen with on cctv does not seem to have came to light. All the forensic evidence was found on boy A. One may not have been particularly clued in - my suspicion is that the other likley was ...

I do wonder if they have continued to keep a pact of silence on much of what actually happened.

KWAG2019 · 01-11-2019 10:32AM

salmocab wrote: »

The problem there is you have to draw a line that suggests someone is more guilty than another. It could turn out the guy was forced to do it or more people would be killed. It’s just not a thing a state should have the power of.

Given the likelihood of error, the irreversibility of error and the consequences on credibility of the rule of law the death penalty has no place in a reasonable society. That’s as far as I would go in saying no to the death penalty.

But that leaves a problem too. When “life” sentences aren’t.

jmreire · 01-11-2019 10:51AM

salmocab wrote: »

Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.[/QUOTE

Agreed 100% with the execution part, I am anti death penalty myself and for the reasons stated above. My post is purely hypothetical, if it would have deterred the two boy's or not. My guess is that it would.

tuxy · 01-11-2019 11:06AM

jmreire wrote: »

Agreed 100% with the execution part, I am anti death penalty myself and for the reasons stated above. My post is purely hypothetical, if it would have deterred the two boy's or not. My guess is that it would.

That would have ment they thought they were not too clever to get caught but there is proof that they did.

salmocab · 01-11-2019 12:24PM

jmreire wrote: »

salmocab wrote: »

Well I think the best argument against the death penalty is that there have been cases of wrongful execution, it’s too much power to give a state and it’s not something that can be rectified after. At least with wrongful imprisonments they can be released and given a pay off. Not great but better than apologising to the executeds family.
Obviously in this case it’s hard to know what would have happened but I really don’t think they would have given it the thought that some here think they did. They planned how not to get caught (not very well it has to be said) I really don’t think they thought of the real consequences beyond not getting caught.[/QUOTE

Agreed 100% with the execution part, I am anti death penalty myself and for the reasons stated above. My post is purely hypothetical, if it would have deterred the two boy's or not. My guess is that it would.

I really don’t think it would, it doesn’t deter in places with much higher murder rates than we have so I see no reason to think two children would have given it the thought to arrive at a logical conclusion.

tayto lover · 01-11-2019 12:40PM

salmocab wrote: »

jmreire wrote: »

I really don’t think it would, it doesn’t deter in places with much higher murder rates than we have so I see no reason to think two children would have given it the thought to arrive at a logical conclusion.

I don’t believe the death penalty deters people who think they can outsmart everyone else and get away with it.

Hannibal_Smith · 01-11-2019 12:55PM

gozunda wrote: »

That I'm not so sure about. Afaik there was suspicion that Boy B may have had another phone. His father even claimed his son had a habit of losing phones. Plus the backpack boy B was seen with on cctv does not seem to have to have came to light. All the forensic evidence was found on boy A. One may not have been particularly clued in - my suspicion is that the other likley was ...

I do wonder if they have continued to keep a pact of silence on much of what actually happened.

He also came home, claimed he was assaulted and allowed mammy to wash his bloodied clothes

jmreire · 01-11-2019 01:04PM

tayto lover wrote: »

salmocab wrote: »

I don’t believe the death penalty deters people who think they can outsmart everyone else and get away with it.

Well in this case, we will never know, as we don't have the death penalty.But as I stated in an earlier post, we have all the fact's and figure's about convicted murderer's getting the death sentence..and the point that it has not stopped the murder's is used as an argument against it ( plus of course the fact that an innocent person may be executed, and I'm pretty sure that it has happened in the past ) But what we don't know is how many murder's were prevented by having the death penalty in a Country? Believe it or not...the prospect of an imminent hanging concentrate's the mind wonderfully.. ( quote Samuel Johnston ) Although I can't prove it..I'm pretty sure that it has prevented many death's. This does not make me an advocate of the death penalty..quite the opposite, as I'm 100% against it.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Comments