Caretaker Rights To Family Home

LegacyUser · 18-10-2019 10:39am #1

Hi, hope this is the right place for this as I'd like to go anon. Apologies for the length but it's a complex situation.

My grandfather passed away several years ago and we realised soon after that he had been covering up how serious my grandmother's dementia was. The family tried caring for her 24/7 but it proved too much and all of us doing shifts, carers coming in to offer respite and so on was only adding to her confusion so the tough decision was made to find her a home where she'd get the care and consistency that she needed. To do that the family had to go through the Fair Deal. Two of the grandchildren, myself and my cousin, had taken weekly shifts caring for her and the cousin asked and was given the opportunity to be caretaker in their home rent-free while her and her partner saved for a mortgage. When their mortgage went through the family then offered me the home to care for under a Caretaker's Agreement.

While the rent free opportunity to save was appealing, I was nervous as I had a gorgeous apartment in the city I loved living in and was paying far below market rates as I got it just before the rent crisis kicked in, and the initial offer was just for a year. After thinking about it I told the family I wouldn't be able to take it for just a year as the savings would be minimal on my wage at the time. The family reassured me the year offer, although contingent on my grandmother's survival (as they'd have to sell within a year due to the Fair Deal), was just a security measure and they wouldn't kick me out if I wasn't ready and even put in the contract that there was an opportunity to renew after one year. With that in mind I felt elated about an opportunity to save and live in my old family home alone so signed and moved. That was last September for reference.

My previous job wasn't high paying as I was working on a passion project upstart business on the side. This was part of why I knew the savings for just one year and the advantage of living rent free would be minimal (as well as all bills, expenses falling to me). So I made the tough decision to park the passion project and use the time to upskill to a better full-time job that'd enable me to save better. I networked and called in favours to get this job but it kept getting pushed back so I only managed to secure it in July. I figured that give me a few months, a year extra max, and I'd have hit my savings target and was good to move and they could offer it to another cousin if they wanted. That's how the previous arrangement worked and how it was spelled out to me that this would work: I wasn't offered it until my cousin had signed off on a moving date for their new home. For the record too, the cousin who previously lived here and I were the only ones who took regular shifts caring for my grandmother while she was ill.

However a meeting was called and it was revealed to me that the eldest of the family (who handles much of the Fair Deal and is a bossy type who bullies everyone to always get her way) wanted her daughter and her boyfriend to move into the home instead and I was to leave ASAP once the initial contract expired. Now there hasn't been one issue with the care for the home. I grew up here for the first 7 years of my life so have a personal connection to it and took pride in keeping it well, I have a great relationship with the neighbours and even people in local businesses etc. I've built a life here basically and lived up to my end of the deal. It upset and outraged me that they'd gone back on their word but I swallowed that and made a calm plea to them for time and space. I told them I didn't want to deny anyone the opportunity I had and didn't see myself as entitled to this home and that there was a second bedroom currently going unused and I was more than happy to have the cousin and partner move into that to share and save while I finished saving and sorted alternative accommodation in my own time. My auntie made it clear this would not work for her or her daughter and there was no compromise available as I'd had my time and that was that. At this stage others spoke up and suggested I be given a few months grace period to sort myself out. I didn't agree to anything as I wasn't sure of my legal footing etc so we just left it at that and agreed to come back to it down the line. I think my compromise was fair and explained that the logic "They're a couple so can't live with another person" is flimsy, as I explained I know couples who have to rent out box rooms to pay rent/mortgage and people pay for that, they can't really argue that this doesn't suit them when it's a free rent situation, just as I wouldn't argue that I'm entitled to continue to have the place to myself. This ticks everyone's boxes but just because it's not exactly what the bossy eldest aunt wants for her daughter, it's just dismissed immediately.

A few weeks later the eldest auntie and the auntie who'd suggested the grace period called over under the proviso of needing to sign a new contract just to cover the extension of me living there. The eldest auntie even said there would be no surprises and it was just a formality they had to go through. However when I opened said contract to sign it the first line dictated that I had to leave the premises by 31st December 2019. Of course I questioned this and we had it out where I laid out that they had gone back on their initial word that we could re-negotiate, that I'd offered a fair compromise and was even willing to leave but didn't want to end up having to settle for an unsuitable new arrangement so just wanted flexibility and security. There's also no particular reason that the cousin and partner need to move in in January, they're on a Part 4 agreement with their current accommodation. The auntie's only excuse for the urgency is:

a) The current place doesn't suit them.
b) My granny could die any day (she's not particularly unhealthy beyond the dementia which has slowed considerably since she moved into the home, she's just elderly which was the case when I moved in too) and limit their time to save.

But they basically said if I didn't sign that contract I would have to leave when the initial one expired which was at the end of September, a couple of weeks away at the time. Feeling backed into a corner and not sure of where I stood legally I signed it.

My question is: am I screwed? After the first meeting and before the second, I started applying for places and going to viewings but nothing has come back. There's a rent crisis on, I keep telling them this! I'm still applying and looking but even research this morning is giving me limited options and I'm not getting many responses, and the end of the year is getting closer and closer. Again I've wrote off having time to save or even fighting for my compromise at this stage. I just want time and flexibility to find a suitable new place to live during a rent crisis. I know I would be covered under traditional rental laws, but this is a caretaker's agreement and I'm not sure what the law is around that, it's very difficult to find anything online. Is the 'contract' they had me sign worth the paper it's written on? Does normal tenancy law apply to me? Can anyone point me to someone I could speak to, or if you work in a similar field give me links to specific legal documents that shed some light about this and what protection I may have? Part of me even wants to reach out to the cousin and speak directly to her because I have a feeling she has no idea what the situation is as she's been absent for all of these negotiations and had her mother speak on her behalf. I've no reason to believe she wouldn't be more reasonable and understanding, everyone in the family knows how bossy her mother is. Would that be an idea or is that going to make it all messier?

I know I'm very lucky to have had a year's free rent, I'm not being spoiled or entitled here. I just don't want to have to be forced into paying insane rental fees, or living in substandard accommodation, or living a mental life with an insane daily commute to work, and hamstringing both my present and future when there's a perfectly fair compromise sitting right on the table being ignored because it's not exactly what my auntie wants. I'll move when the first decent opportunity comes, trust me I want rid of these people and their weird, controlling ways ASAP. I just want a bit of security and the option to control my next move on my own terms without being bullied into settling for less.

Princess Calla · 18-10-2019 5:57pm

Talk to a solicitor, it might cost you a couple of hundred but probably be worth it.

You don't mention your parents. Or else I missed it.

As far as I can remember for inheritance purposes if they are dead you can assume their role. So you may have an equal standing as your aunt.

strandroad · 18-10-2019 8:40pm

But it also looks like they have given you a grace period already if you were supposed to move out by the end of September and it was changed to December, that's three months extra?

LegacyUser · 18-10-2019 10:29pm

OP here thanks for replies. What I proposed as a second compromise was a monthly rolling contract while I looked to allow for the possibility a suitable place simply didn’t come up in time. In the meantime the cousin and partner could have the second room whenever they wanted or wait, their call. But again if it’s not exactly what the eldest auntie wants she just shoots it down immediately without a moment’s consideration. There’s no interest in compromising because it’s her daughter involved, she can’t see that conflict of interest and she’s got the kind of forceful personality that everyone just does what she wants because that’s the family norm they’ve grown up with. My mother and her have already butted heads about this and I’m almost more comfortable not having her involved because I don’t think arguments and standoffs will do this any good in a situation where legal options are a last resort, if it’s an argument everyone digs their heels in then legal consultation becomes inevitable and the family damage is permanent. I don’t want to be the cause of that but also I shouldn’t have to sacrifice my short and long-term security to keep the peace either. I’m going to every viewing I’m getting offered, nothing has come back so far. If anyone is looking at the moment they’ll know the standard with shared accoms is you get a few replies that just go nowhere and the odd viewing you get you’re in a queue with 15-20 others picked out of 200 or so options probably. So you’re probably looking at a 1% or so shot with every application you put in. I’m taking the fact that I’m getting a decent response level as a sign that at least my application is on point but I can’t control the other variables. That’s what I’m dealing with and why all I’m looking for is a bit of understanding and flexibility in case something just doesn’t work out on time. It’s not a given in a period when there’s a rent crisis covered in the papers but my aunties haven’t rented in decades (if ever) so probably think it’s just a case of me not trying hard enough, no matter what the news says. A lotto win would come in handy now to be honest.

the14thwarrior · 20-10-2019 10:45pm

it seems to me they offered you a year and then a re negotiate.
now they've offered you three months extra.

from your auntie point of view why should you live rent free for more than a year when her children could now live for a year rent free?

her reasons are not important.
your reasons are not important.

time to share the opportunity, you've had your turn now its their turn.

its not complex, but its the truth.
and turning it into a legal matter is not the way to go.

sorry if this sounds harsh

LegacyUser · 20-10-2019 11:03pm

I get where you're coming from and I expected that kind of response as soon as I said the words rent free. It's not a case of me wanting to hold onto the place. I'm totally understanding of everyone's right to get a turn and that's why I offered a compromise in the event I couldn't find a new place in time. Again there's a second bedroom sitting right there unused and I don't spend much time in the home beyond making dinner and sleeping. What time I do spend there I'd spend maintaining it for the most part.

I feel a bit of flexibility should be given due to there being a rent crisis and it not being as simple as 'just give them a turn and find another place'. They wouldn't call it a crisis if everyone could just click their fingers and just find another place, if that was an option I'd take it in a second and I've been trying to do just that. And I do feel they owe me that since when they didn't have anyone else and didn't want to rent the place out independently they were happy to promise me that if this exact situation happened they wouldn't do exactly what they are doing. I wouldn't have trusted that if it was a regular landlord but I did then because it was family. But I underestimated how the eldest aunt in particular would compromise and twist her words and morals when it came to getting her daughter an opportunity. That's emotionally tough to take but I'm trying to forget about that and just deal with the practical here. I could find a place tomorrow and be gone. But there's also the chance that I may not too and what then? I've zero security and I think legally I'm entitled to have some. All I'm looking to explore is the what if.

unattendedbag · 20-10-2019 11:57pm

The aunt is putting the pressure on you so she can do a turn for her daughter. She probably thinks the more pressure she puts on you the quicker you'll be gone. Whatever happens don't put yourself into a position where you're sleeping on the streets or a dive just to please someone else. You may quickly learn that when property, family, money, wills, inheritance mix; things get nasty and bitter quickly. Entitlement reward and deservance mean nothing.

I'd advise making a call to the PRTB in the morning and seeing what rights you have. It would be interesting to know if you are entitled to part 4 tenancy rights as you've been there over 6 months. They will advise you accordingly. My interpretation is you are not living rent free. You don't pay any money on the understanding that you take care of and maintain the property however your contract should be clear on that. Therefore it may be like a normal tenancy and the standard termination procedures may apply. Does the aunt have power of attorney or ward of court over your grandmother and therefore can she legally evict you? Those are just my initial thoughts but I could be wrong.

There may be posters over on the accommodation and property forum that could advise further.

SuperS54 · 21-10-2019 6:27am

If it's not an issue of money then you could try offering to pay for your aunt's daughters current apartment, that way you get to stay where you are and they get to live rent free. Another option would be to move into their when they move into "your" place.

Just being nosy here so you don't have to answer, is your aunts daughter also being given a one year lease or is it open ended?

Caranica · 21-10-2019 8:25am

Have you spoken to your cousin to see if they'd be open to sharing, at least in the short term given how little you're around? Getting her onside is key

LegacyUser · 21-10-2019 10:17am

Thanks for replies lads.

@unattendadbag: I'm going to give them a ring today and see, you've got me thinking. I did some research there and this does sound a bit like a fixed lease term which would cover me with a Part 4. If I'm covered with a Part 4 agreement then this is done as I can just say that the contract they made me sign for the end of the year is/was void and they've no right to ask, I'll move in my own time and in the meantime the offer is still on for the cousin and partner to use the second room so they're not missing out. Her and my second eldest aunt, who's also my godmother, were both given power of attorney by my grandad before he passed. But I don't think that extends to the point where they can make all decisions regarding the house without the others' say. For example under a Part 4 she could try evict me by saying she needed the home for an immediate family member but then my Mam also has the same inheritance rights to the home so it'd create a legal mess. At the very least if I'm covered by a Part 4 that would mean they'd have to formally go through a process of eviction which would be 90 days after they were to receive a notice of eviction and buy me more time. It's just I was convinced that as it was a caretaker's agreement it wasn't covered under regular RTB law but you make an interesting point worth exploring.

@SuperS54: The official reasoning behind it is that her daughter and partner don't like living in the city so I'm not sure that'd fly. Again I don't see how them not liking the city gives them the right to have the house to themselves and for the family to kick me out but whatever. I asked the same question and was told they're being very clear that everyone coming in is strictly getting it for a year from now on, which doesn't help my situation that was loose and I was technically given reassurances to get me over the line. But if that does enable a Part 4 agreement then I think they'll learn that they're just creating a mess for themselves and they need to learn about the law surrounding these kind of things, they can't just make it up as they go along. I've had almost arguments with my mother about whether these family arrangements should fall under law. I hear her point but also I explain the law exists for a reason and treating family this way is worse than a regular landlord doing so. If a landlord was doing this and it wasn't a case that the auntie was making a decision and we didn't know her daughter, I think everyone involved would agree I was getting treated disgracefully but because we know them everyone is hesitant to step in and pick a side almost so the eldest aunt is just getting her own way because that's the default.

@Caranica: I have serious suspicions that my cousin has zero idea how her mother is carrying on in her name and the claims she's making on her behalf. When I brought up the compromise solution firstly my auntie conveniently said that she'd anticipated I would suggest exactly that and asked the cousin and she said no she wouldn't be open to it. I doubt that conversation even happened and if it did I'd say the cousin was told "Just say no". I've never had any issues with the cousin and although we wouldn't be close I've no reason to believe she's not reasonable. The risk there though is I reach out and shoot my shot and miss. She just passes any correspondence onto her mam and then the auntie gets to paint a picture that I'm trying to pressure the cousin in order to stay in the house which makes me look sly and turns everyone against me. At least if I go the legal route and have to come back at them with that I'm getting ironclad facts that protect me. It's just finding out who exactly to talk to on that end and how I'd be covered legally or if being a caretaker puts me in a grey area and the fact I've signed a contract saying I'd leave by the end of the year could screw me. I regret signing that contract now, I wish I'd held steady but the threat was if I didn't sign there and then I'd need to leave within two weeks and I just didn't know what ground I stood on. Looking back that was a clear bluff as no eviction info I've found says they can just kick someone out on the spot once their contract elapses, in fact the opposite is the case and it's been made illegal to change locks or remove someone's stuff, but I genuinely didn't feel at that point like they were going to put me into that corner because my other aunt had gotten involved and seemed a lot more reasonable.

beauf · 21-10-2019 8:40pm

About 95% of what you've written is irrelevant and very identifiable.

Do you have a formal contract that was agreed and signed. Who signed it.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 21-10-2019 10:32pm

CaretakerRights wrote: »

I know I'm very lucky to have had a year's free rent, I'm not being spoiled or entitled here. I just don't want to have to be forced into paying insane rental fees, or living in substandard accommodation, or living a mental life with an insane daily commute to work, and hamstringing both my present and future when there's a perfectly fair compromise sitting right on the table being ignored because it's not exactly what my auntie wants. I'll move when the first decent opportunity comes, trust me I want rid of these people and their weird, controlling ways ASAP. I just want a bit of security and the option to control my next move on my own terms without being bullied into settling for less.

Bullied into settling for less??

You have 15 months rent free, you had a year there which was the original agreement, they have compromised and given you an extra 3 months.

I know it doesn't suit you but what exactly was/is your plan once the year was up? You knew you would have to find somewhere else.

You signed a contract to say you will be out by the end of the year. Would the new couple moving in let you stay?

I'm not sure getting legal advice and digging your heels in will do you any favours with your extended family who probably want something more solid than waiting for you to find the 'first decent opportunity'.

All this bickering over a property that none of you own.

If you were the one waiting to move in would you be happy with no actual date/plan for moving or if your cousin looking to extend indefinitely?

If you never signed a lease and don't pay rent then the PRTB will probably not be able to help. You signed a contract with the agreement ending in September and then another one extending to December. Does the contract state anything else around renewal etc? Any legal standing likely hinges on the contents of the contract.

Do you have any close family or friends that you could stay with if you haven't found a place by the end of the year?

the14thwarrior · 21-10-2019 11:20pm

the more you post, the more I'm on your eldest aunt's side.

beauf · 21-10-2019 11:42pm

CaretakerRights wrote: »

...the initial offer was just for a year. After thinking about it I told the family I wouldn't be able to take it for just a year ...The family reassured me the year offer, .... was just a security measure and they wouldn't kick me out if I wasn't ready and even put in the contract that there was an opportunity to renew after one year. ....

...the agreement wasn't a year. It was a year with the option to renew...

I think part of the discontent is passing it over to someone who wasn't that involved in the caring rota. But really this shouldn't be anything to do with it. It's not a reward, it's just keeping the house occupied instead of being empty.

But if they are kicking you out then the next person should have a similar limit.

If I was the OP I just move on. These things end badly. Unless you walk away and don't take it personally.

GG66 · 22-10-2019 12:06am

I won't offer you legal advice but when it comes to family disputes this is what a good solicitor will advise.

1) Try to work it out as a family first. Only as a very last resort go the legal route. They will forever more point the finger at you as the one who wnet legal, split the family etc etc.

2) Never do anything to inflame the situation. Keep it factual and calm. Emotions can run high.

Sounds like a word with your cousin makes sense. Share that you understand their position and don't want to get in the way, however... and explain yours.

She what they say. At least then you've tried and can say they left you with no choice. If they're intent on throwing you out on the street, you've a right to care for yourself.

But if you can find somewhere else, move on. It's really not worth the fallout.

SirChenjin · 22-10-2019 7:38am

By all means, get legal advice on the situation.

As has been mentioned upthread the posters on Accommodation and Property may be able to help to point you in the right direction too. I'd suggest boiling the thread down to bare bones, if moving it over there because there is a lot of detail included that isn't necessary, IMO, and as has been mentioned, potentially making you / others involved, identifiable.

In relation to taking the legal route - as I said, by all means, get advice but think about the long term effects too. It could have a huge fall out for everyone.

LegacyUser · 22-10-2019 8:10am

Thanks GC66. The preference is to find a place and be gone within the agreed timeframe. Now that it's creeping in and I haven't even been offered a viewing in a few weeks, a few replies to applications but then it just goes cold, I have to start thinking worst case scenario. I wouldn't like to be responsible for splitting the family but if it comes to that or ending up on the street or having to live in a kip then that's the decision they've ultimately made.

Update: I called RTB yesterday and they said that this would fall under their remit, as someone here suggested the fact that I am a caretaker would count as a form of rent in their eyes making this a tenancy. Threshold were a bit more hesitant on that but both were really helpful and agreed that the conduct of the family was completely out of line. They both recommended I seek legal advice to at least know where I stand so I can act on it if I absolutely have to. I've got an appointment with FLAC to get some more facts. But in some good news I also got my first viewing in a few weeks sorted for tonight too so hopefully that goes well and all this just gets to go away.

For the person who said it's as simple as I got 15 months free rent deal with it, it's not. First off they approached me. I was living in a nice double ensuite in a central location I loved for around 500 a month and they asked me if I wanted to live there because they needed someone. I obviously thought about it but said thanks but no thanks to their initial offer of a year out of fear of losing a good spot in the rental market the other side of that year. That's when the assurances came in, they even spelled out how exactly they'd handle it after a year: they'd come to me and see how I was getting on before approaching anyone else and if I needed an extension it'd be no problem. They'd done that with my cousin beforehand too. The year was 'just to cover them' because the risk was if my granny passed they'd need to sell within a year because of the Fair Deal. If that was a regular landlord I didn't know I wouldn't have trusted them on that, but because it was family and because it was the way they'd handled my cousin's situation I felt safe and with that in mind giving up a free rental opportunity would be insane. If I had to pay more rent after the year then at least I'd then have a deposit saved and could afford to live month-to-month with a bit of security in the bank.

The way it was actually handled was that the eldest aunt's daughter told her she was interested, the aunt contacted everyone else behind my back (only a couple of people knew about the assurances because they were said face-to-face and one of those was my Mam) and told them my year was coming to an end and were they okay if her daughter moved in, they all assumed I was okay with this because I'd only signed for a year so gave it the thumbs up. Meanwhile I had just got my new job and was thinking "6-12 months of this and I've hit my savings target and I'll leave and give someone else a shot, sure they haven't got in touch anyway so it must be fine." Then it was dropped on me before I'd even got my first paycheque. So the way the situation was manipulated when I opposed it was made to seem as if I was going back on my agreement and trying to cling onto the house when actually I was just acting the whole time based off what the auntie had promised me initially. I haven't even passed probation in the new job and I don't even think I'm out of contract for stuff like the electricity supplier I have, it's not a practical solution on any level. And even then I've still offered a compromise where the cousin still gets to move in. I'm still shocked nobody spoke up and said "That's a fair solution actually everyone gets what they want then", because it is, but that just shows that whatever the eldest says goes within the family dynamic.

Princess Calla · 22-10-2019 11:01am

Just to clarify, when I suggested talking to a solicitor I did mean just that. I wasn't suggesting bringing them to court or anything.

How long a contract are the cousin and boyfriend getting? I've a feeling the bossy aunt won't be too pushed if it went over a 12 month contract.

I've tried looking at this from different perspectives.

1. If it were my parents house I'd have no problem with a niece or nephew living there rent free while they saved.

2. While I've no problem with the above I wouldn't be too comfortable with one being asked to leave to facilitate a non family member to move in rent free.

If it were my parents house I'd be saying whoever wants to live there rent free can(within reason obviously) , if a houseshare doesn’t suit off they pop and rent privately.

From your perspective it's unfortunate that it took time to get all your ducks in a row to enable you to make some proper savings but that's life unfortunately. You've had a good year.

However is your cousin getting a one year contract too? That's actually going to be enforced? I guarantee that family involved now are considering the arrangement more trouble than its worth so by time the cousins contract expires no one will be bothered to fight it, so the cousin will now be living rent free indefinitely.

If I were your cousin of course I'd want you gone

the dynamics in the house is going to be completely different with you living there.
Your cousin is getting a sweet deal none of the caring and all of the benefits.

On the one hand I think you've had your turn time to pass the keys on. On the other hand I doubt your cousin will be moving out after a year.

If this was my parents house, and it actually could well be. As there seems to be a precedence for one year contracts I'd be saying right your time is up and the cousins time begins, if after a year the granny is still alive, the situation will be reviewed. At which point I'd be saying whoever of the family wants to live there can, subject to not acting the maggot.

I've no idea how many more cousins are coming up the ranks but in my family I've alot of nieces and nephews. I personally wouldn't want the headache of each year evicting one to replace by another.

It also wouldn't sit well with me evicting one to move a non family member in, living indefinitely there paying zero rent. I'm a soft touch but not a charity!

antix80 · 22-10-2019 11:12am

Op - it's not your house. Move out and stop your messing. Free rent til 31st December is more than fair.

LegacyUser · 22-10-2019 12:34pm

What messing? I have the house until 31st December and I’m going to another viewing tonight. What exactly do you suggest I do move onto the street tonight or pay 60% of my paycheque and live in a financially awful situation that’d handicap me for years or live in a dive when there’s absolutely no need to? I’m not being picky and precious either. The first place I viewed the room was small, the bathroom was mouldy, it wasn’t convenient for work, there was no set space for me to put food and the lad who owned it seemed pretty set in his ways and I’d have still probably taken it if offered. It’s not their house either, my grandmother is still alive and I’ll tell you for a fact she wouldn’t be happy with me getting treated this way. If you think it’s as simple as ‘just move out’ you don’t understand the current rental market situation. I’m doing everything I can to move out but I can’t just click my fingers and invent a new home for me to move into and in any other situation I wouldn’t be expected to. In the situation here before I moved in my other cousins weren’t expected to either. The only difference here is now it’s the eldest daughter so the rules are changing.

wiggle16 · 22-10-2019 2:03pm

I have to say, you're on a hiding to nothing here, OP.

I've never heard of this kind of rotating set up before and to be honest anyone could have seen a mile off that this situation would happen eventually.

With respect, there is a lot of filler in your posts that really isn't relevant. Your aunt certainly could be going about this with a little more tact, and it certainly leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but at the end of the day your "turn" in the house is up.
It's irrelevant that they approached you about it in the first place. You were free to turn it down. It's not like you were doing them a favour, it was the other way around.

Whether or not your family all typically fall into line behind your aunt really isn't relevant to this situation, because in this case she is right. You made an agreement, and they gave you an extension - all this stuff about how they'd "see how you were getting on in a year" sounds very wishywashy and vague. It doesn't really mean anything. It sounds more like you would be allowed to stay more than a year if no one else was pushed about moving in. As it happens, that wasn't the case.

At the end of the day, you can't just decide that you no longer want to abide by the agreement because it doesn't suit you anymore. I have every sympathy for your situation but being honest it really sounds like you just expected that it would be extended. That's not what was agreed.

It's no one else's problem that you gave up your previous place for this one. You were willing to do it at the time. It's not their fault if you end up living in a kip. It's not relevant.

If your grandmother died in the morning, what would happen? You'd have to leave because the house would have to be sold. In any case you're going to have to plan to be out by the end of December.
At the moment, all you are doing is personalising this with your aunt and making out that she is the problem. She's not. The problem is that this agreement was not clearly defined, which is your fault as much as anyone else's, and you have decided that the original agreement no longer suits you as you vaguely expected to be allowed to stay after the year was up.

I think it would be a mistake to go down the legal road, they're not going to back down. It might be worthwhile taking to your cousin to see if you can come to an arrangement with her, but make contingency plans to leave the house in case that comes to nothing. Otherwise you may as well be p*ssing into the wind.

I know you feel it's unfair because you feel there's room for compromise, I get that, but any extension would be a concession on their part. If they are not willing to give one that's up to them and you're just going to have accept that they don't see things your way.

LegacyUser · 22-10-2019 3:45pm

You’re missing the point. I’m not looking to stay here indefinitely. I am actively trying to leave. I’m going to a viewing tonight, I‘ve been applying for places constantly. My application has got a good few responses and I based it off what I wanted to hear when I was looking for housemates so I’m guessing it’s good. I go to viewings and am friendly and enthusiastic but if they want a girl, or if the person before me happens to share an interest I don’t maybe they get it instead. I can’t control the variables and am doing everything within my control. I can’t just move in somewhere else tomorrow and would if I could. I’m competing for every room with dozens of people. I get replies asking when can I view and give multiple timeslots or ask for an address and never hear back. Part 4 agreements exist for this exact reason and both RTB and Threshold have told me as independent advisors that this carry on is not acceptable for a regular landlord never mind family. If this had been laid out to me at the start I would have declined, and did decline originally. But they didn’t follow the procedure they themselves set and the assurances they made when I declined. I’ve no problem with others getting a turn and I’m not trying to deny anyone. But you can’t just say to someone during a rent crisis ‘3 months is enough to find somewhere.’ If you think that then you’re not in touch with what’s going on here. I could find somewhere tonight or not find anywhere and have zero control over that. All I’ve asked for is flexibility and there’s no reason whatsoever not to give me at least that, I’ve done a good job here and lived up to my end of the bargain. My cousin is not being pushed out of her home and is covered by a Part 4 and has an option to move in here rent free tomorrow if she likes. But for some reason people living in both bedrooms is off the table when it would be a natural solution in any other tenancy. And if someone was offered the second room and declined they’d give up their claim in any other tenancy too.

the14thwarrior · 22-10-2019 9:21pm

You are missing the point.

of every posting that has given you good advice, hints, and if nothing else, the god's honest truth. Perhaps re-read some of the advice, not mine, but a few of the others.

digging your heels in will get you no where.

antix80 · 22-10-2019 9:22pm

Op, you're missing the point. The caretaker arrangement was a fixed term, and probably a licensee agreement rather than a tenancy.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from reporting them to the rtb and see how far you get.

I think those people are making a very good decision kicking you out. The longer you're there the more entitled you'll feel and the more trouble you'll cause them.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 22-10-2019 9:52pm

You don't have a tenancy or a landlord, you are living there at the good will of your extended family. Is there a clause in your caretakers agreement to say that you must give up possession of the property by a certain date or 'when required to do so' ?

Hard to see where you would have any legal grounds to stay but maybe a solicitor could confirm this for you.

I can see why some family members might want you out, can you not just move back with family if you can't find a place before the end of the year?

beauf · 22-10-2019 11:21pm

When people won't listen to advice and just obsess over irrelevant minutiae. It's almost certainly to end in disaster.

listermint · 22-10-2019 11:36pm

You had a good thing for a year.

Don't burn bridges with your extended family over something which isn't really that important to you.

I'd cop on a bit and make sure they know your going and give up with this prtb stuff

This is exactly how rifts start in families and are never sorted. Pointless unnecessary. You've gotten a decent free year out of all this. What's that worth 12 grand plus I'd say.

wiggle16 · 23-10-2019 2:33pm

With respect, I don't think I'm missing the point. I think you're focussing on things that aren't relevant.

You feel that there is room for compromise, and there is. But compromise involves one side making a concession to the other, and they're under no obligation to do that. They've already given you a three month extension.

You're being asked to leave the house and find somewhere else to live, in a difficult market, to make room for someone who already has somewhere to live and doesn't need to move in, or even need move you out in order to move in. I get that and I get how that would leave a bad taste in your mouth. And if I were your aunt I would be going about this differently.

But you are letting the above distract you from the fact that your family are entitled to stick to the original agreement. Your departure from the property was not agreed to be contingent upon whether or not you had your ducks in a row when it came time to leave. That's the long and short of it.

Your offer of a rolling monthly contract until you find somewhere decent to live shows that you're not really considering their point of view, at all. How would you both agree on what constitutes "decent"? They'd effectively be extending your stay indefinitely, until you feel ready to leave - it would be on your terms. They were quite right to refuse that. It would have just pushed this row further down the line.

Instead of considering that they are within their right to enforce the original agreement, you're personalising this and making out that your aunt is being unfair and cunning. She's not. She's not the problem. They are not obliged to accommodate you, in both senses of the word.

You need to put this caretaker stuff out of your head. I'm sorry if this seems harsh but seriously, you need to have a word with yourself here. If you take the step of trying to extend your stay in the house by going down the legal route, or even mentioning it, then you are going to find yourself in court very very quickly and no longer a part of your family, and potentially homeless. There is no way in Hell they are going to let you any kind of a legal foothold in the house, even if to you it's only temporary.

You need to take a step back and have a word with yourself about this. Listen to what posters here having been telling you.

Talk to your cousin by all means but you need to accept that you will have to leave on 31/12/2019 if she isn't open to moving in with you.

Shelli2 · 25-10-2019 12:41am

Is going home to your own parents an option? My brother is currently back at my parents. He was caretaker in a fairtrade situation, the elderly person passed away and he had to move out as the house sold almost immediately. You, or Indeed your cousin could easily end up in that situation and should have an emergency plan ready.

Paddy Cow · 25-10-2019 1:43am

CaretakerRights wrote: »

My cousin is not being pushed out of her home and is covered by a Part 4 and has an option to move in here rent free tomorrow if she likes. But for some reason people living in both bedrooms is off the table when it would be a natural solution in any other tenancy. And if someone was offered the second room and declined they’d give up their claim in any other tenancy too.

The reason they won't go for the house share is because they think you won't be bothered looking for somewhere if the other cousin moves in. It's easier to get you out now. I have a feeling like the other poster that the cousin won't be moving out after a year but unless your grandmother dies, people will be sick of the hassle and drama and not really care.

To be honest, you and your aunt sound very alike - both think you are right and not willing to listen to any other point of view. I bet everyone else is sick of being in the middle. Instead of going down the legal route which is just going to completely blow this out of proportion, the sensible thing to do would be to contact your cousin and say something along the lines of "Hey I know you are due a turn being caretaker but I'm having some difficulty securing accommodation. How would you feel about being room mates for a short cross over period while I'm sorting this out?".

No drama, no blaming the aunt, no threatening to go down the legal route. Just normal, sensible, mature adult communication. She might straight up say no but at least you will know where you stand and you can say you have made an honest attempt at compromise. You don't know what your aunt is saying to extended family so if you threaten legal action without even texting or speaking to your cousin, you are making yourself look like an entitled spoiled brat and playing into your aunt's hands. Be smarter than that. No matter how wronged you feel here, the situation looks bad for you. You admitted yourself that only two people (one of which was your mother) know about the option of extension. You can't win this. No one is going to feel sorry for you after having 15 mths free rent. It doesn't matter that you haven't reached your personal savings goal. Other people will simply take the view of "they've had their turn, let someone else have theirs". Seriously, either reach out to your cousin or up your moving game.

LegacyUser · 25-10-2019 10:54pm

Sorry I haven't been back in this week it's been mental. I've been to a few viewings and had some success but what's been crazier is learning the reaction between the real world and boards. Thanks to everyone who replied. I expected that as soon as I said free rent I'd get a lot of people who'd disagree with anything I said and sure enough there it was but I actually ended up getting what I needed from this thread. So because of this thread and people who actually bothered to give good advice I ended up speaking to the RTB, Threshold and FLAC. Everyone involved who's jobs it was to deal with this kinda stuff ended up agreeing with me that this setup wasn't even nearly legal. One person who doesn't even stand to make a penny from helping me out put it really well in saying that 'if your family chooses to steal money from your wallet you're not in the wrong for them being upset if you hold them to account for that.' I guess it's an Irish thing based on the response here that you just take whatever your family says and don't argue to not cause upset even if they're completely wrong. Which they are. Nothing they've done is in any way legal and that's now verified by people who are paid to know this stuff. There are very basic laws around this and they have broken them. I don't need to make my life worse to cover for them and I feel bad for anyone who thinks it's necessary to do so for their own family.

Anyway I've got a couple of decent offers on the table and am dealing with a few people who are qualified to talk to about my options. I'm fine now and it was thanks to the few people here that decided to help me look into my options instead of the people who decided to slate me because I had the cheek to take free rent when I had the opportunity, like any of them would if they had that same opportunity. The people who helped here helped me get in touch with people who actually knew about this stuff and those people were able to advise me that everything I had thought to begin with was correct and I have multiple options. Thank you again to those people. Mods you can close this thread because this situation is dealt with now.

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