Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Donnielighto · 22-10-2019 12:24AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, there is a lot of hope in it. But he seems like a decent man and he has been very successful as an assistant coach, so in the absence of a reason to doubt him I'll probably be much happier if I err on the side of being hopeful.

Could work but I would have liked of they put him in one of the provinces first for a season. He's got a 4 year contract with no head coach experience.

irishbucsfan · 22-10-2019 12:32AM

Donnielighto wrote: »

It's a tool that wasn't used and who said random. Players were out of form, drop em. Not all at once but at least have them know they can't just coast by owning the jersey. Larmour or Conway should have had starts ahead of Kearney. Ah should have come in. Conan should have got a start ahead of stander. These aren't just ah well pick and number and replace them form players weren't getting game time. What's the incentive to perform.

Larmour and Conan both started games in the 6 Nations this year, didn't they? Robbie Henshaw also started a game at 15, in a selection experiment that didn't exactly work out. Jordi Murphy also started a game at 8 if I remember right.

I think Conan could have had a good chance of starting at 8. A real shame he'll be gone from Farrell's first 6 Nations.

Fair point on the random bit, I didn't mean random in terms of pick a number, I meant more in terms of me not trying not to be too specific but it was a bad word selection.

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 12:34AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This sentence is all I really need to respond to here because the rest is ****e.

I haven't defended his selection policy. I am saying I think it wasn't the problem. I'm not saying it was a positive. I think it was grand, I think he was slow to bring on half backs for sure. I would have liked to have seen someone else at 9 more often in the 6 Nations. At the same time I think it was better than 2015 when it was a complete mess that left us completely bereft of experience and quality against Argentina. So not good, but not as bad as it was before.

What you're not understanding here is that I'm saying it wasn't the problem. I'm not saying it was right, I'm saying it wasn't the cause for our complete and utter failure to perform. I think there are other deep factors at play that a couple of changes in selection here and there would have made absolutely no impact in changing. The performance against New Zealand was a new depth of poor that I don't think can be explained by some stale selections.

On multiple occasions against New Zealand we gave up huge field position and handed over either direct tries or first phase deep in our half due to errors that wouldn't be acceptable from guys at pro 14 level. They were errors that were several levels below the guys who were making them. Whether its guys losing the ball in contact because they're making poor decisions, or its guys making simple mistakes in the kicking game they wouldn't normally. I think general performance levels had dropped massively and I think that is something that should have not been allowed to happen by the coaching team, and I think a lot of those areas were in the remit of Joe Schmidt himself as a technical coach (or maybe Richie Murphy). I just don't agree with the hypothesis that a stale selection policy was responsible for those types of errors. These guys were hardly unmotivated going into the biggest game of their careers because they started a 6 Nations game against Italy 7 months before.

I mean if posters say selection policy was a problem and you describe it as ‘grand’ as you do above, or argue against it being a problem, that’s a defence of it whatever way you want to swing it. You call my posts shi*e and come up with that logic gap in the same post, you’re some operator.

Of course they weren’t unmotivated, no-one has suggested that, absolute strawman stuff. What has been suggested was that having undroppables in a team can have damaging knock on impacts, in relation to standards, both in game and training, in relation to morale and so on. You have refused to believe Schmidt has these undroppable players for some unknown reason despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Your posts have generally been condescending and filled with hot air, you started with a provincial dig when I had not thrown any such nonsense around.

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 12:36AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, there is a lot of hope in it. But he seems like a decent man and he has been very successful as an assistant coach, so in the absence of a reason to doubt him I'll probably be much happier if I err on the side of being hopeful.

I mean not having been a head coach at any level is extremely uncommon for an international appointment and certainly grounds for concern I would say. But whatever you think yourself.

irishbucsfan · 22-10-2019 12:38AM

Again ignoring the bits where you seemed to either misunderstand or misrepresent me.

ClanofLams wrote: »

Of course they weren’t unmotivated

OK right.. We agree.

ClanofLams wrote: »

no-one has suggested that, absolute strawman stuff. What has been suggested was that having undroppables in a team can have damaging knock on impacts, in relation to standards, both in game and training, in relation to morale and so on. You have refused to believe Schmidt has these undroppable players for some unknown reason despite ample evidence to the contrary. .

In relation to morale and so on? So what apart from motivation affects their morale and so on if they're not afraid of being dropped (that specifically was still a problem for them in the biggest game in Irish rugby history, if you will).

Donnielighto · 22-10-2019 12:40AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Larmour and Conan both started games in the 6 Nations this year, didn't they? Robbie Henshaw also started a game at 15, in a selection experiment that didn't exactly work out. Jordi Murphy also started a game at 8 if I remember right.

I think Conan could have had a good chance of starting at 8. A real shame he'll be gone from Farrell's first 6 Nations.

Fair point on the random bit, I didn't mean random in terms of pick a number, I meant more in terms of me not trying not to be too specific but it was a bad word selection.

Conan started vs scots, forgot that alright. I don't think the issues at the WC were just due to selection but that was part of it imo. The game plan and team both stagnated. It just felt like this was coming for ages and could be seen. Call that pessimism around world cups based on previous. History doesn't repeat itslef but it does rhyme.

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 12:47AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Again ignoring the bits where you seemed to either misunderstand or misrepresent me.

OK right.. We agree.

In relation to morale and so on? So what apart from motivation affects their morale and so on if they're not afraid of being dropped (that specifically was still a problem for them in the biggest game in Irish rugby history, if you will).

To simplify it a great deal. It’s not necessarily about the starters. Players see certain players getting picked and staying on long periods despite playing terrible, consistently. They think ah f**k this, what’s the point. Training standards dip, those in possession of jerseys aren’t getting real competition at training because there is no motivation to do so, no chance of winning a spot. That has a knock on impact on the skill/focus of starters who aren’t being pushed.

There are a myriad of ways having guaranteed starters can negatively affect teams. It’s hard to believe this needs explaining to someone who was talking about a mental skills expert earlier on.

irishbucsfan · 22-10-2019 01:01AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

To simplify it a great deal. It’s not necessarily about the starters. Players see certain players getting picked and staying on long periods despite playing terrible, consistently. They think ah f**k this, what’s the point. Training standards dip, those in possession of jerseys aren’t getting real competition at training because there is no motivation to do so, no chance of winning a spot. That has a knock on impact on the skill/focus of starters who aren’t being pushed.

There are a myriad of ways having guaranteed starters can negatively affect teams. It’s hard to believe this needs explaining to someone who was talking about a mental skills expert earlier on.

Ah right, so a motivation problem! Why didn't someone say that! :pac:

Look that's something that could happen on paper for sure, but I just cannot see that being the explanation in practice for the difference in performance between the team that took the field in Dublin in 2018 and the team that took the field in Tokyo (or the drop from November to February). Especially because for an environment that incredibly toxic to be created, you wouldn't be talking about a situation where nearly everyone got a start throughout the pool stages and a bunch of guys got starts in the 6 Nations.

Jack Carty is in his first real year and a half with the squad for example, he's hardly given up already. Luke McGrath only just edged out Marmion, he's hardly given up to the extent that he can be blamed for Murray's inconsistent form.

Maybe its a small part of the cause of the general performance problems, I wouldn't be shocked. I'd say we'll hear soon enough if morale got that bad amongst the wider squad.

I also don't think that's what most people are talking about here when they complain about selections, I think they're talking about the starting team, maybe I'm wrong.

lord quackinton · 22-10-2019 01:03AM

If you were to name Schmidt’s team 1/1/19
Healy
Best
Furlong
Toner
Ryan
Pom
Stander
Leavy
Murray
Sexton
Earls
Stickdale
Kearney
Aki
Henshaw

The reality is Schmidt bar toner stood by that 15 and never had any other intentions
I get that this can be positive but too many of the above players were in bad form And some were too injured to even be there

My guess is Schmidt was blinded by arrogance to the truth and his coaches were too scared of him to say anything

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 01:18AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah right, so a motivation problem! Why didn't someone say that! :pac:

Look that's something that could happen on paper for sure, but I just cannot see that being the explanation in practice for the difference in performance between the team that took the field in Dublin in 2018 and the team that took the field in Tokyo (or the drop from November to February). Especially because for an environment that incredibly toxic to be created, you wouldn't be talking about a situation where nearly everyone got a start throughout the pool stages and a bunch of guys got starts in the 6 Nations.

Jack Carty is in his first real year and a half with the squad for example, he's hardly given up already. Luke McGrath only just edged out Marmion, he's hardly given up to the extent that he can be blamed for Murray's inconsistent form.

Maybe its a small part of the cause of the general performance problems, I wouldn't be shocked. I'd say we'll hear soon enough if morale got that bad amongst the wider squad.

I also don't think that's what most people are talking about here when they complain about selections, I think they're talking about the starting team, maybe I'm wrong.

That’s a simplification of what I have said on here, it’s my fault because I just left it at a ‘myriad of issues’. That’s one negative way guaranteed starters can affect a team but there are others too. It can be a problem for starters too, it’s not even a conscious decision, but you’re just going to push harder if you think your spot isn’t guaranteed. The problem then is you can’t just turn it back on in big games no matter how motivated you are:

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Peter O’Mahony was man of the match against England in 2017 when he wasn’t even in the squad originally (iirc). I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Rob Kearney had one of his best games ever for Ireland after being told his position was under threat. Genuine competition for places almost always yields better outcomes. I don’t believe that was there for the vast majority of spots on the team this year and I’m not sure how anyone could suggest there was looking at selection decisions.

I find it difficult to envisage a scenario this year where this issue wasn’t a significant problem. Sure our defensive structure got nullified to a large extent and our attack has never been the best in the world. But I mean to go from grand slam champions, unbeaten all year to getting absolute hidings in the three competitive fixtures Ireland played against top tier teams and beaten by Japan would strongly suggest to me that the policy of disregarding player performances on the basis of what they done 18 months ago is definitely a factor and likely a significant one.

captbarnacles · 22-10-2019 01:23AM

Rewatched the first half of the match. The game plan was irrelevant when the whole team is making such basic errors. No plan would have overcome that. We were comprehensively beaten up front and we seemed shocked at the intensity of the collisions.

For me that was the biggest factor and extends back to previous KO losses vs Arg and Wales. Ireland seem able to produce that intensity occasionally (Scotland this WC France previous one and Aus before that) but really struggle to repeat it. Why this is or how to fix it i have no idea.

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 01:45AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah right, so a motivation problem! Why didn't someone say that! :pac:

Look that's something that could happen on paper for sure, but I just cannot see that being the explanation in practice for the difference in performance between the team that took the field in Dublin in 2018 and the team that took the field in Tokyo (or the drop from November to February). Especially because for an environment that incredibly toxic to be created, you wouldn't be talking about a situation where nearly everyone got a start throughout the pool stages and a bunch of guys got starts in the 6 Nations.

Jack Carty is in his first real year and a half with the squad for example, he's hardly given up already. Luke McGrath only just edged out Marmion, he's hardly given up to the extent that he can be blamed for Murray's inconsistent form.

Maybe its a small part of the cause of the general performance problems, I wouldn't be shocked. I'd say we'll hear soon enough if morale got that bad amongst the wider squad.

I also don't think that's what most people are talking about here when they complain about selections, I think they're talking about the starting team, maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry I missed something in your post. I wouldn’t agree than an atmosphere needs to be toxic for this to be a problem, an air of general acceptance would be sufficient, those are the starters, that’s just the way it is type thing.

Leaving aside game plan and selections, if you look at the basic errors Ireland have been making more or less consistently throughout the year, I think a reasonable conclusion would be application in training is off. Then we are into why was application in training is off, I doubt the coaching quality declined and I doubt it was a conscious decision by players so that leads to me to think selection policy was a significant factor.

irishbucsfan · 22-10-2019 01:47AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

That’s a simplification of what I have said on here, it’s my fault because I just left it at a ‘myriad of issues’. That’s one negative way guaranteed starters can affect a team but there are others too. It can be a problem for starters too, it’s not even a conscious decision, but you’re just going to push harder if you think your spot isn’t guaranteed. The problem then is you can’t just turn it back on in big games no matter how motivated you are:

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Peter O’Mahony was man of the match against England in 2017 when he wasn’t even in the squad originally (iirc). I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Rob Kearney had one of his best games ever for Ireland after being told his position was under threat. Genuine competition for places almost always yields better outcomes. I don’t believe that was there for the vast majority of spots on the team this year and I’m not sure how anyone could suggest there was looking at selection decisions.

I find it difficult to envisage a scenario this year where this issue wasn’t a significant problem. Sure our defensive structure got nullified to a large extent and our attack has never been the best in the world. But I mean to go from grand slam champions, unbeaten all year to getting absolute hidings in the three competitive fixtures Ireland played against top tier teams and beaten by Japan would strongly suggest to me that the policy of disregarding player performances on the basis of what they done 18 months ago is definitely a factor and likely a significant one.

I just don't understand how on earth our loss to England be linked to this as well. Our loss to England was the first game we played after beating New Zealand. Even our loss to Wales came after a 6 Nations where we changed our team more than ever. Now these games are also being used as evidence?

Its really interesting to me that one example of this being used for motivation is one where a guys gets dropped and comes back in, proving you need to change to motivate players. Then the other example is one where Rob Kearney specifically doesn't get dropped, despite everyone calling for it. Surely the fact Rob Kearney rediscovered his form after Schmidt stuck with him should not be used as an example of why you shouldn't give players time to rediscover their form! That is actually an example of a guy being trusted in specifically the way you are saying ruins the entire team, but is also somehow an example. And I'd imagine its an example because Kearney came out honestly and shared that he'd been told his position was under threat, as if the same thing hasn't been told to other players who have struggled?

Its not a satisfactory answer to me. I think we've failed to perform multiple times now across many years and many combinations of teams. Even under Declan Kidney I think this was a problem in 2011 before things really went off the wall. Whether it's a deeply settled team against New Zealand or a very disrupted team against Argentina. I think there's a far deeper problem there with Irish players being incapable of sustaining performances under pressure. I think it shares a lot of symptoms with the one New Zealand solved in 2011, Kinsella wrote about that here: https://www.the42.ie/red-heads-all-blacks-mental-skills-gazing-3055185-Oct2016/

I think that explains why we struggle when things go against us early and why we struggle to chase a lead in general. I think it also explains why we often need to build our way into competitions through momentum and struggle if we lose early on. Early losses to England this year and Scotland in 2017 ruined our entire year, and we barely scraped past a poor France side the year we won the Grand Slam before building our way into the tournament. When we lost to Argentina in 2015 we were 14-0 down after 10 minutes. We were 15-0 down after 20 this time. Two teams who were specifically focusing on this side of the game (Argentina having been brought it by Graham Henry and his connections, remember). Rather than a subtle slide in skill levels, motivation or staleness, I think on a wider level we're just not set up to deal with pressure. I think it possibly even has a wider effect on limiting our ability to play a multi-phase game with confidence and is why we often find more success playing a highly structured game with a lot of focus on creating pressure off the ball rather than creating pressure with the ball. I think fixing this problem would be exceptionally difficult but I think that's the challenge that'll be set out in front of them, because I've heard murmurings of this elsewhere.

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 02:15AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I just don't understand how on earth our loss to England be linked to this as well. Our loss to England was the first game we played after beating New Zealand. Even our loss to Wales came after a 6 Nations where we changed our team more than ever. Now these games are also being used as evidence?

Its really interesting to me that one example of this being used for motivation is one where a guys gets dropped and comes back in, proving you need to change to motivate players. Then the other example is one where Rob Kearney specifically doesn't get dropped, despite everyone calling for it. Surely the fact Rob Kearney rediscovered his form after Schmidt stuck with him should not be used as an example of why you shouldn't give players time to rediscover their form! That is actually an example of a guy being trusted in specifically the way you are saying ruins the entire team, but is also somehow an example. And I'd imagine its an example because Kearney came out honestly and shared that he'd been told his position was under threat, as if the same thing hasn't been told to other players who have struggled?

Its not a satisfactory answer to me. I think we've failed to perform multiple times now across many years and many combinations of teams. Even under Declan Kidney I think this was a problem in 2011 before things really went off the wall. Whether it's a deeply settled team against New Zealand or a very disrupted team against Argentina. I think there's a far deeper problem there with Irish players being incapable of sustaining performances under pressure. I think it shares a lot of symptoms with the one New Zealand solved in 2011, Kinsella wrote about that here: https://www.the42.ie/red-heads-all-blacks-mental-skills-gazing-3055185-Oct2016/

I think that explains why we struggle when things go against us early and why we struggle to chase a lead in general. I think it also explains why we often need to build our way into competitions through momentum and struggle if we lose early on. Early losses to England this year and Scotland in 2017 ruined our entire year, and we barely scraped past a poor France side the year we won the Grand Slam before building our way into the tournament. When we lost to Argentina in 2015 we were 14-0 down after 10 minutes. We were 15-0 down after 20 this time. Two teams who were specifically focusing on this side of the game (Argentina having been brought it by Graham Henry and his connections, remember). Rather than a subtle slide in skill levels, motivation or staleness, I think on a wider level we're just not set up to deal with pressure. I think it possibly even has a wider effect on limiting our ability to play a multi-phase game with confidence and is why we often find more success playing a highly structured game with a lot of focus on creating pressure off the ball rather than creating pressure with the ball. I think fixing this problem would be exceptionally difficult but I think that's the challenge that'll be set out in front of them, because I've heard murmurings of this elsewhere.

I don’t think anyone is arguing against players being given time to rediscover form. The argument is over how much time is acceptable, over what message leaving a guy on the field who is having quite probably his worst performance in international history sends to the squad.

It’s been a while since I heard that Rob Kearney clip, but if I recall it correctly, there was a sense that this was the first time it had been said to him or, at the very least, the first time in a long while. Clearly Schmidt felt making him aware of the jeopardy of his position might go some way towards and it did. You’re right in that maybe those conversations were happening this year but you have to follow through on them at some stage. You have to actually make the tough call.

I’m not going to pretend to know exactly why we lost to England, the squad or best or sexton mentioned complacency, maybe that was true, standards dipped a little and that’s enough. But I can’t believe that the persistent selection of out of form players did not have an impact on the squad as a whole.

Look at any consistently successful team in any sport and you will see examples of established players being dropped with far less chances than were given to the Irish team this year - NZ being the example in rugby with Ioane and Ben Smith gone. Kilkenny in hurling, I think it’s in two all Ireland finals this decade where they’ve had a man of the match who didn’t start the semi final or final - Walter Walsh in ‘12 against Galway and I can’t recall the other but I’m pretty sure there was one. Dublin in football - Fitzsimons didn’t start in 2016 first game and man of the match the second day. Ferguson was ruthless at United in getting rid of players.

I appreciate that mentality is an important aspect of any sport and I could buy that had Ireland been just failing to get over the line. But in reality there’s little comparison to New Zealand who were coming up slightly short in World Cups to Ireland playing consistently terrible all year. You might well be right that’s it an area that needs work regardless but it’s just not gonna be the difference between getting hammered and winning. If you’re almost getting over the line, it can certainly be part of the solution but Ireland haven’t been getting beaten narrowly, those three games never looked competitive.

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 06:31AM

Just caught up with the rugby weekly podcast. This theory about it being a mental block and Gilbert Eboka with the All Blacks etc was being discussed. From listening to Kinsella and Toolan, it seems this was what Joe Schmidt and Rory Best pinpointed post game (haven’t heard either myself).

Again massive respect to both, Ireland’s most successful coach and captain etc but it’s an awful lot easier to come out after a defeat and say there is a mental block issue rather than come up and say we got our preparation wrong or in hindsight maybe we got some selections wrong, etc.

Scythica · 22-10-2019 07:08AM

Cooney in from the cold for the 6N perhaps?

Shefwedfan · 22-10-2019 07:48AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not resorting to name calling you, just your analysis, which is moronic. You can of course bring up Carty, implying he was the only problem against Japan, as you did is ridiculous hence ‘moronic’. The pack was terrible, Murray was terrible. He made errors but the only good things in the game came from him and ringrose.

There wasn’t any improvement when Carberry came on that day. You felt qualified to comment on his inclusion in the six nations squad when you had admittedly seen him play two games, more moronic analysis. You insisted he was terrible in Connacht v Leinster when Leinster won 20-3, when it was pointed out by posters and reports he played quite well you replied with the very incisive analysis that he couldn’t have played that well given the score.

You banged on about team winning percentages as it that was the be all and end all. Aaron Wainwright was man of the match in the World Cup quarter final yesterday. He plays for Dragons, his win rate is probably around 15%.

Done nothing in the six nations? Big part in the only points Ireland got against Wales in the eight minutes he got on the field. Played well against France with some nice kicks and half breaks. Done fine in the ten minutes or so he got against Italy.

More insightful analysis from you.

Unfortunately you are talking about the 6 nations and not the WC.....who talked about winning percentage? During the 6 nations I questioned his inclusive and all anyone pointed to was the Leinster game, when he played against a B team and at the end of day the game was lost...but that was 6 nations so not really sure why you are bringing it up now?

Everything is moronic to you if we mention a Connacht player, it’s open season on everyone else.

I said before the squad was announced that Carty wasn’t up to it and disappeared in matchs. He had twice played against Italy and done nothing and it was a concern. I have watched plenty of Connacht since the 6 nations and again no idea what people are raving around, sorry Connacht people

I haven’t said anything since the squad was picked about Carty but you seem to have no issue picking out majority of rest of squad but forget about Carty. As I said he done ok against Japan for 20 mins and then done his usual disappear act and done nothing the rest of match till a unfit Carbery was brought on and actually made the team slightly tick.

Not just me but majority of rugby people said Sexton at 10 would have guided that team a lot better, even a fit Carbery

It was 3-0 tries I p at half time against Russia, team was going decent, Carty came on and the game went to a mess for 30 mind with him central to the issues.

Are we just going to ignore this? It’s the ireland thread so at least be critical of all players equal. I actually seen a post on here calling for Carty to start at 10? How deluded is that? Do we expect the back to cover for Carty every game?

I am listening to you and a few other posters bang on about Carty for months now with absolutely nothing to back it up, even your own analysis is “fine” and “ok”.....sexton is not an 8 out of 10 and you are jumping all over him, even Carbery who actually tried to do something against Japan you have no problem calling out.

PS I didn’t say a the problems in Japan match was Carty, people suggested Marmion would somehow rescue the issue, I just pointed out we had bigger issues at 10 than at 9, I didn’t say Murray had a good game....

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 08:14AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Unfortunately you are talking about the 6 nations and not the WC.....who talked about winning percentage? During the 6 nations I questioned his inclusive and all anyone pointed to was the Leinster game, when he played against a B team and at the end of day the game was lost...but that was 6 nations so not really sure why you are bringing it up now?

Everything is moronic to you if we mention a Connacht player, it’s open season on everyone else.

I said before the squad was announced that Carty wasn’t up to it and disappeared in matchs. He had twice played against Italy and done nothing and it was a concern. I have watched plenty of Connacht since the 6 nations and again no idea what people are raving around, sorry Connacht people

I haven’t said anything since the squad was picked about Carty but you seem to have no issue picking out majority of rest of squad but forget about Carty. As I said he done ok against Japan for 20 mins and then done his usual disappear act and done nothing the rest of match till a unfit Carbery was brought on and actually made the team slightly tick.

Not just me but majority of rugby people said Sexton at 10 would have guided that team a lot better, even a fit Carbery

It was 3-0 tries I p at half time against Russia, team was going decent, Carty came on and the game went to a mess for 30 mind with him central to the issues.

Are we just going to ignore this? It’s the ireland thread so at least be critical of all players equal. I actually seen a post on here calling for Carty to start at 10? How deluded is that? Do we expect the back to cover for Carty every game?

I am listening to you and a few other posters bang on about Carty for months now with absolutely nothing to back it up, even your own analysis is “fine” and “ok”.....sexton is not an 8 out of 10 and you are jumping all over him, even Carbery who actually tried to do something against Japan you have no problem calling out.

PS I didn’t say a the problems in Japan match was Carty, people suggested Marmion would somehow rescue the issue, I just pointed out we had bigger issues at 10 than at 9, I didn’t say Murray had a good game....

You talked about a teams winning percentage when Carty was picked last year, you went on and on about in fact as it should be a massive factor in judging a player, check your post history. You also admitted to only having seen him play two times but fet entitled to question his place in the squad on that thorough basis - one of those game last he got man of the match in and the other one he played well but you insisted he had been ‘terrible’, then a few posters pointed out he had done well, reports were linked where he was referenced as having played well and you said something along the lines of ‘well he couldn’t have played that well, they lost 20-3’.

You have repeatedly said he ‘done nothing’ in the six nations. Here’s a report from Murray Kinsella saying he impressed off the bench against Fance and had some nice touches in the limited time he got against Wales. https://www.the42.ie/ireland-schmidt-sexton-murray-wales-4546764-Mar2019/

I think you have massively overstated Carty negative performances in comparison to other on the teams such as Murray and the pack.

‘The problem position in the Japan game was not 9, it was 10’. That’s nonsense. Murray was appalling as was the entire pack. Seriously trying to place the majority of the blame that sh*t show on Carty is ridiculous. Murray is the guy with seventy caps or whatever, Lions, arguably the best nine i the world on form. If they are both terrible (I would argue Carty was slightly better given he at least had a good twenty minutes and created two tries but whatever) Murray should obviously get more blame than the guy getting his second start for Ireland.

I said he struggled at times and looked good at times but this is irrelevant to the larger point of guaranteed positions for certain players:

I have said the issue here isn’t around Marmion or Carty or whoever. It’s about having undroppable people in the team, it was often Leinster players I was suggesting. There’s no provincial bias in me stating O’Mahony should have been dropped, I really like the guy but his form didn’t warrant a spot.

You accuse me of provincial bias but in reality you just can’t handle any criticism of Schmidt or Leinster players. I mean at some point after the Japan you tried to deny Ireland were in a poor run of form by just writing out a list of LWWWL etc etc for 2019 as if that was a reasonable point. Ireland had been smashed by the only two top tier teams in the six nations and lost to Japan. Seriously trying to claim that somehow wasn’t a poor run of form was Comical Ali stuff.

Niallof9 · 22-10-2019 08:42AM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

they do have aims for better prep for world cup and to do better. Why then had schmidt capped so many players, looked at so many players while maintaining levels of success.

its also vital we move on from naming how we play after name of our coach and just adding 'ball'.

Its also vital people on here acknowledge what is in front of them. We had posters on here for years lauding Ireland's style. It was winning rugby sure, but it was **** rugby and ultimately got found out on the biggest stage of all, twice.

salmocab · 22-10-2019 08:45AM

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its also vital people on here acknowledge what is in front of them. We had posters on here for years lauding Ireland's style. It was winning rugby sure, but it was **** rugby and ultimately got found out on the biggest stage of all, twice.

It’s not vital at all, what’s said here doesn’t make a jot of difference to the Irish team.

Clegg · 22-10-2019 08:52AM

Scythica wrote: »

Cooney in from the cold for the 6N perhaps?

Cooney isn't the answer. His pinpoint goal kicking masks his overall play which is no better than anyone other 9 in the country.

Shefwedfan · 22-10-2019 08:56AM

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its also vital people on here acknowledge what is in front of them. We had posters on here for years lauding Ireland's style. It was winning rugby sure, but it was **** rugby and ultimately got found out on the biggest stage of all, twice.

How would describe the style Wales are currently playing?

irishbucsfan · 22-10-2019 08:59AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

Just caught up with the rugby weekly podcast. This theory about it being a mental block and Gilbert Eboka with the All Blacks etc was being discussed. From listening to Kinsella and Toolan, it seems this was what Joe Schmidt and Rory Best pinpointed post game (haven’t heard either myself).

Again massive respect to both, Ireland’s most successful coach and captain etc but it’s an awful lot easier to come out after a defeat and say there is a mental block issue rather than come up and say we got our preparation wrong or in hindsight maybe we got some selections wrong, etc.

Saying that there is a mental block IS saying that you got your preparations wrong. That is one of the things Schmidt is responsible in preparing the team for. If he is saying there is a mental block, he is saying he failed to overcome it as coach.

Haven’t heard them saying it, mind. If they are, that’s an encouraging start and a decent example for them to hopefully leave to the people coming after them.

Burkie1203 · 22-10-2019 09:03AM

Clegg wrote: »

Cooney isn't the answer. His pinpoint goal kicking masks his overall play which is no better than anyone other 9 in the country.

No but surely Cooney McGrath or Marmion couldn't have been any worse then Murray was in the 6n and should have been given proper game time (30 min minimum) instead of a token 3/5/7 minutes

Wegians89 · 22-10-2019 09:03AM

Scythica wrote: »

Cooney in from the cold for the 6N perhaps?

Blade x

whatawaster · 22-10-2019 09:12AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How would describe the style Wales are currently playing?

They play with much more depth in their back line and are much better able to get the ball wide than we ever seem able to

FrancieBrady · 22-10-2019 09:12AM

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its also vital people on here acknowledge what is in front of them. We had posters on here for years lauding Ireland's style. It was winning rugby sure, but it was **** rugby and ultimately got found out on the biggest stage of all, twice.

I honestly don't get this point of view.

I have been watching and loving rugby all of my life and I am on the wrong side of the half century.

I can assure you I was not watching All Black style rugby during those years.

What I watched was combinations of types of rugby and when it was well done, or well enough done, teams won.

Not everyone can ever be NZ and as Japan showed you need to be very very good to win anything playing fast and expressive rugby.

It is totally wrong IMO to make the blanket statement that we play '**** rugby'.

We didn't and don't, we tried to combine different types of rugby and simply got no game going at all in this QF and going out and simply not being able (due to injury and squad depth) to play a winning game in the 2015 QF.

Two totally different reasons for going out we have to live with and learn something from.

whatawaster · 22-10-2019 09:12AM

Wegians89 wrote: »

Blade x

Gibson Park is next in line I'm afraid

ClanofLams · 22-10-2019 09:16AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Saying that there is a mental block IS saying that you got your preparations wrong. That is one of the things Schmidt is responsible in preparing the team for. If he is saying there is a mental block, he is saying he failed to overcome it as coach.

Haven’t heard them saying it, mind. If they are, that’s an encouraging start and a decent example for them to hopefully leave to the people coming after them.

Fair enough. I think it’s a lot less of a failing for a coach than other potential issues though and I’m not really sure I buy it in any case. Did this mental block cause poor 6N performances too, I mean if it’s affecting them that far back it must be a crippling issue.

I don’t see what a mental block around world cups is based on either. Until 2007, we just never had a team capable of making last four, 1991 would have been a freak.

There’s been four world cups since then. We obviously got our training preparation massively wrong in 2007 but in truth I’m not sure we were one of the top four sides in the world in any case. 2011 likewise I don’t really think we were genuinely top four side in the world at any stage in the 18 months leading up to it. Wales were just a superior side in the quarter final.

2015 was a disaster, any Irish side that loses six starters and most of them key players a week out from a quarter final simply isn’t going to win.

This is the first year where at the start of the year, I would have said Ireland are definitely one of the top four sides in the world. Though we obviously had s tough quarter final awaiting against another top four side.

Catching up a lot of podcasts at the moment, Eoin Reddan on second captains also felt selection was an issue although for a different reason than has been suggested here, saying that people were playing who weren’t as confident as they should been because they didn’t feel they had earned their spot.

irishbucsfan · 22-10-2019 09:18AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

Did this mental block cause poor 6N performances too, I mean if it’s affecting them that far back it must be a crippling issue.

I literally said this and went through it in my post.
It's not a mental block when it comes to world cups. It's a lack of mental strength and an inability to deal with pressure and adversity on a wider level.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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