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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1
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Inferior players?Shefwedfan wrote: »Your going in circles, you keep asking for players to get dropped but no alternative provided
Is the plan just to drop players and put inferior players just to shake it up?
It was recognised that over the last 4 years Ireland has tested more players than ever before, build up a squad with players who all had significant international experience
So Marmion who hadn’t played from November was going to come in and Joe would pick him for a potential 6 nations decider in Wales?
Marmion was in the squad for 4 years and never moved Murray from a starting role, I know your a Connacht fan but that has to suggest something to you....When Joe did shake it up everyone went nuts because he dropped Marmion.
Have you watched Ireland this year? We are brutal, and that's when we pick the supposed "top" players, and these are some of the worst offenders in terms of garbage performances.
How anyone can sit here and make excuses about not selecting alternative players after some of the hammerings we've taken this past 10 months, and some of the performances on show, is beyond me.
Schmidt took the risk, changed nothing and hoped they'd just return to form again. It didn't happen, they continued to play like drains, and criticism of that is entirely valid.0 -
Shefwedfan wrote: »Your going in circles, you keep asking for players to get dropped but no alternative provided
Is the plan just to drop players and put inferior players just to shake it up?
It was recognised that over the last 4 years Ireland has tested more players than ever before, build up a squad with players who all had significant international experience
So Marmion who hadn’t played from November was going to come in and Joe would pick him for a potential 6 nations decider in Wales?
Marmion was in the squad for 4 years and never moved Murray from a starting role, I know your a Connacht fan but that has to suggest something to you....When Joe did shake it up everyone went nuts because he dropped Marmion.
Can you read and comprehend? I said it’s not about Murray or Marmion specifically. It’s about players being guaranteed their spots. Drop O’Mahony start Ruddock or start Conan and Stander. Drop Murray, start McGrath, whoever I don’t care.
You can’t just keep picking guys and hoping they magically play themselves into form. There needs to be consequences for poor performances.0 -
ClanofLams wrote: »No I don’t think it would have made any difference last week. But players have been locked in for the last year at least. What impact has allowing that culture of ‘undroppable’ players to develop? How motivated are guys in training sessions if they it doesn’t matter what they do?
At some stage a few of those undroppable players needed to get the bench. Against Italy doesn’t count, that’s clearly a second tier type game.
Agree with you as regards to culture of 'undroppable' players as that shouldn't be allowed to develop cos it could lead to decreased level of motivation and lower the standards. Also 'undroppable' players that Joe's loyalty to these players that he couldn't drop hence ' undroppable'.
But I don't get it that other assistant coaches didn't object if I'm correct.
Thomas o leary spoke on radio that Ireland hampered by 'structural straitjacket' which sounded right. Cos players unable to express themselves on the pitch or heads up rugby etc. Skills didn't progress further cos players afraid to go against Joe as they didn't want to be dropped.0 -
I've watched the game again. It was even harder watching the second time as you can be more objective when you're not in the heat of the moment. It was a horror show performance, but not in the same way as on first view.
First time round I thought we were simply crap. This time you could see that at times we actually manipulated the New Zealand defence, but at the crucial moments our execution was appalling. Sexton messing up relatively easy kick passes, going short to Henshaw when Stockdale was in space on the wing. Stander and Henshaw taking contact ball first and knocking on in promising positions. You could see we'd clearly worked on ways to crack New Zealand. But we really did just bottle it.
Also, what I noticed this time which I didn't before is just how terrible Keith Earls was. When it comes to try scoring he's one of our best ever. But ask him to execute a pass under pressure and he bricks it. Did the same against Samoa. We made a nice little decoy play on Saturday. Used a few forwards as a screen and popped a pass to Earls who'd come from the far wing. When it came the time to pass to Larmour who was screaming for it in loads of space, Earls tucked the ball and ran.
If you want to see a more well rounded attacking game from Ireland then I don't think Earls fits. You either get a second playmaker at 12 or 15, who can get the ball quickly to a finisher like Earls. Or you get a wing who is actually comfortable coming infield and acting as an auxiliary linkman to play that pass to space. I don't think we currently have the 12 or 15 for the former, but we've wings who are definitely more comfortable with the latter.0 -
Purely as an example, how many times do you think Murray or Sexton have ever really worried during 2019 about being dropped? I bet it's never.
I posted it at the time and I remember doing so because it pissed me off quite a bit, but Joe Schmidt sent a very clear message during the Six Nations to his team. Sexton and Murray were abysmal, like truly horrendous, and they both played 70+ minutes throughout the tournament.
You might get a few sharp words from Schmidt during his famous Monday sessions, but it doesn't matter how crap you are, you aren't getting subbed and nobody else is getting your spot in the next game. So really, what does it matter?
This is not a hindsight thing. People were calling this out back in February that it was a big problem, and it proved to be a big problem. I really don't know if this is a Joe Schmidt thing or an IRFU thing, because he's not the first Ireland coach to fall into this trap of picking his old reliables even when they're stinking the place out and not doing the business. We can only hope that he's the last though.0 -
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ClanofLams wrote: »You can’t have a starting XV locked in a year out; it’s nonsense. Leaving Sexton on for seventy minutes, continuously playing Murray/O’Mahony and others who were out of form, etc. You don’t have to necessarily keep them out of the side but you need to make clear performances matter and that spots aren’t guaranteed.
Murray and Sexton were clearly both out of form for the world cup, which means they must now both play all the six nations to get them back on track. Players wont recover their form sitting in the stand. Murray could end up playing every game from here to the next world cup if his form keeps dipping. The worse he gets, the more important it become to keep starting him. You cant just go around dropping players just because they are playing badly and you have better ones on the sidelines. World Cups are not won with that kind of selection strategy.0 -
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »Murray and Sexton were clearly both out of form for the world cup, which means they must now both play all the six nations to get them back on track. Players wont recover their form sitting in the stand. Murray could end up playing every game from here to the next world cup if his form keeps dipping. The worse he gets, the more important it become to keep starting him. You cant just go around dropping players just because they are playing badly and you have better ones on the sidelines. World Cups are not won with that kind of selection strategy.
Well if 2019 has taught us anything it's that they don't recover it being continually picked. We can stop beating that horse, it's well and truly dead.0 -
I've watched the game again. It was even harder watching the second time as you can be more objective when you're not in the heat of the moment. It was a horror show performance, but not in the same way as on first view.
First time round I thought we were simply crap. This time you could see that at times we actually manipulated the New Zealand defence, but at the crucial moments our execution was appalling. Sexton messing up relatively easy kick passes, going short to Henshaw when Stockdale was in space on the wing. Stander and Henshaw taking contact ball first and knocking on in promising positions. You could see we'd clearly worked on ways to crack New Zealand. But we really did just bottle it.
Also, what I noticed this time which I didn't before is just how terrible Keith Earls was. When it comes to try scoring he's one of our best ever. But ask him to execute a pass under pressure and he bricks it. Did the same against Samoa. We made nice little decoy okay on Saturday. Used a few forwards as a screen and popped a pass to Earls who'd come from the far wing. Then it came the time to pass to Larmour who was screaming for it in loads of space. Earls tucked the ball and ran.
If you want to see a more well rounded attacking game from Ireland then I don't think Earls fits. You either get a second playmaker at 12 or 15 who can get the ball quickly to a finisher like Earls. Or you get a wing who is actually comfortable coming infield and acting as an auxiliary linkman to play that pass to space. I don't think we currently have the 12 or 15 for the former, but we've wings who are definitely more comfortable with the latter.
Robbie Henshaw is IMO a very talented player who has been ruined at 12. He has been turned into a wannabe Jamie Roberts.
I don't know if it was Joe Schmidt or Leinster that decided to coach the playmaking out of him, but whoever it was has made a total balls of it.0 -
Robbie Henshaw is IMO a very talented player who has been ruined at 12. He has been turned into a wannabe Jamie Roberts.
I don't know if it was Joe Schmidt or Leinster that decided to coach the playmaking out of him, but whoever it was has made a total balls of it.
I think it's a combo of both. The season Henshaw signed for Leinster was Ringrose's breakthrough season and Madigan left so we lost a 12 option and were left with Isa/Reid as our only options. It suited Joe to have him playing 12 as Bundee wasn't eligible so it was only really McCloskey or Scannell as our options at 12 internationally.0 -
ClanofLams wrote: »I’m fine with using the six nations as a building block in World Cup years, I think success should be a priority every other year, for all the talk of four year plans that’s pretty much what NZ do, didn’t win tri nations/rugby championship in ‘11 ‘15 or ‘19 but look likely to win three world cups.
That’s really besides the point though. I’m not sure if I’m not being clear or not but it’s about allowing players to become ‘undroppable’. Squads are successful when there’s genuine competition for places, again look at NZ Ioane and Ben Smith gone, newcomers Reece and Bridge who debuted a couple of months ago in.
You can’t have a starting XV locked in a year out; it’s nonsense. Leaving Sexton on for seventy minutes, continuously playing Murray/O’Mahony and others who were out of form, etc. You don’t have to necessarily keep them out of the side but you need to make clear performances matter and that spots aren’t guaranteed.
But you have accepted that Marmion has never reached the peak of Murray. The choice was to either see if they could get Murray back to the level he had played or move to another SH that has never shown to be able to get to that level but is better than him in his currently poor form, the one you are angling for being 2 years younger at that time.
This isn't a case of dropping a player to up their game, premier league manager dropping a player because he is going on the session too much. Players go through poor form and you either stick with them or move on. The problem at both OH and SH was that none of the other options put their hands up for anything other than being a fill in. Where I agree with you is POM, we had quality alternatives that were consistently outplaying him, with also a ceiling that was at his.
I've already stated that it is easier for SH teams to try new guys in the run up to the WC. They are playing in competitive matches weeks before the event rather than 7 months before. Form is much more likely to change in the interim.0 -
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Robbie Henshaw is IMO a very talented player who has been ruined at 12. He has been turned into a wannabe Jamie Roberts.
I don't know if it was Joe Schmidt or Leinster that decided to coach the playmaking out of him, but whoever it was has made a total balls of it.
Thank you, been saying this since he left Connacht, actually even when Ireland were playing him at 12 before he left. He was going to be genuinely world class at 13/15. He’s a very good 12 like very very good but he could have gone even further with the talent he had at 13/15. One of the best natural footballers, had all the skills. Think the move to 12 and the added bulk has caused his injury issues too.
Obviously it made sense for Ireland and Leinster to get both Ringrose and henshaw on the pitch together but just feel it was at henshaws personal expense0 -
Robbie Henshaw is IMO a very talented player who has been ruined at 12. He has been turned into a wannabe Jamie Roberts.
I don't know if it was Joe Schmidt or Leinster that decided to coach the playmaking out of him, but whoever it was has made a total balls of it.
Whatever happened to the talk that he was the next BOD? Even BOD himself was coaching him and giving him hints/tips on how to play 13. He was the second coming and it was a case of Brian who?
Now he is a bulldozing 12.
When you see him beyond that you realize he is a brilliant rugby player....Reads the game well, great hands, great defender. So why is he repeatedly smashing straight up the 12 channel?0 -
Purely as an example, how many times do you think Murray or Sexton have ever really worried during 2019 about being dropped? I bet it's never.
I posted it at the time and I remember doing so because it pissed me off quite a bit, but Joe Schmidt sent a very clear message during the Six Nations to his team. Sexton and Murray were abysmal, like truly horrendous, and they both played 70+ minutes throughout the tournament.
You might get a few sharp words from Schmidt during his famous Monday sessions, but it doesn't matter how crap you are, you aren't getting subbed and nobody else is getting your spot in the next game. So really, what does it matter?
This is not a hindsight thing. People were calling this out back in February that it was a big problem, and it proved to be a big problem. I really don't know if this is a Joe Schmidt thing or an IRFU thing, because he's not the first Ireland coach to fall into this trap of picking his old reliables even when they're stinking the place out and not doing the business. We can only hope that he's the last though.
Even if true, do you have any evidence that their form would improved by dropping them more than it did by giving them more game time?0 -
Even if true, do you have any evidence that their form would improved by dropping them more than it did by giving them more game time?
Sorry, but what sort of question is that? You want evidence? Like, written documentation or what?
That's like me asking you if you have any evidence that Ireland would not have been better off sacking Joe Schmidt after the 6N and getting someone new in.
Competition breeds success, this is pretty much universally accepted. No competition and players get comfortable. We saw this in 2019.0 -
But you have accepted that Marmion has never reached the peak of Murray. The choice was to either see if they could get Murray back to the level he had played or move to another SH that has never shown to be able to get to that level but is better than him in his currently poor form, the one you are angling for being 2 years younger at that time.
This isn't a case of dropping a player to up their game, premier league manager dropping a player because he is going on the session too much. Players go through poor form and you either stick with them or move on. The problem at both OH and SH was that none of the other options put their hands up for anything other than being a fill in. Where I agree with you is POM, we had quality alternatives that were consistently outplaying him, with also a ceiling that was at his.
I've already stated that it is easier for SH teams to try new guys in the run up to the WC. They are playing in competitive matches weeks before the event rather than 7 months before. Form is much more likely to change in the interim.
To repeat again I’m not angling for anyone in particular. I’m arguing for performances having consequences, that’s a massively important thing for a squad at any level.
I don’t agree you have to play them or move on. I’m not suggesting O’Mahony or Murray should be dropped completely. I’m suggesting the coach says ‘your form isn’t good enough so you’re dropped. We both know the talent you have so you need to get back to that level’ or ‘Johnny you know the respect I have for you. But your performance was so poor the last day that I had no option but to put a guy with two caps on with half an hour left’.
There was European Cup, league play offs, warm ups,etc left. I think that’s plenty of time for guys to recover form. It’s not like any of these guys lack experience so much they desperately needed another game in the six nations.
Performances being irrelevant, as they have appeared to be in Schmidt’s eyes this year will never result in success.0 -
Robbie Henshaw is IMO a very talented player who has been ruined at 12. He has been turned into a wannabe Jamie Roberts.
I don't know if it was Joe Schmidt or Leinster that decided to coach the playmaking out of him, but whoever it was has made a total balls of it.
I think it's more of an Ireland thing. I've seen a lot of Henshaw with Leinster and the difference in how he plays in blue compared to green is stark.
Henshaw's bit a playmaking 12 in the vein of a Giteau, but he's given license to at least try and spread it to his outside backs. But Henshaw's main strengths lay in his ball carrying and offloading. With Leinster of course he'll be asked to truck the ball up over the gainline. He's our most powerful carrier in the backs after all. But he's also used in wider areas quite a bit. Whether it be to burst through a soft shoulder or to pop a little offload to a wing, he's used very effectively.
With Ireland everything is so prescriptive. Truck it up, hit a ruck, link pass to someone but only for this specific set play. Schmidt rightly identified Henshaw's incredible athleticism and integrated him into the Ireland side at a very early age. But he definitely ignored Henshaw's footballing qualities, at least at inside centre. When he played at 13 for Ireland we saw a bit more passing and kicking variety. Schmidt obviously wanted certain things from his 12 and everything else was superfluous. I think it's a crying shame that Henshaw picked up an injury right after the England Six Nations game. We were trying to change our game and use 12 as a linking option. But Aki was clearly I'll suited for that role. I thin Henshaw would have been a better fit.0 -
Sorry, but what sort of question is that? You want evidence? Like, written documentation or what?
Competition breeds success, this is pretty much universally accepted. No competition and players get comfortable. We saw this in 2019.
Sounds soccer phone-in show style management advice.
So you're saying no player during 2019 improved their play with more gametime, they were all dropped or they didn't get better? Glad your take away from all of 2019 appears to fit in perfectly with you worldview, the repetition is helpful.
There isn't a one size fits all solution to how to get players back in form. Competition is great when there are replacement players that have shown they come at least come close to the peak of the incumbent, but we didn't have that at SH or OH. It was either making the decision to move on from Murray and/or Sexton and developing a plan around that decision or dropping them for a game or two as some kind of 'no one is undropable' message to the team. The latter seems completely daft to me.0 -
I've watched the game again. It was even harder watching the second time as you can be more objective when you're not in the heat of the moment. It was a horror show performance, but not in the same way as on first view.
First time round I thought we were simply crap. This time you could see that at times we actually manipulated the New Zealand defence, but at the crucial moments our execution was appalling. Sexton messing up relatively easy kick passes, going short to Henshaw when Stockdale was in space on the wing. Stander and Henshaw taking contact ball first and knocking on in promising positions. You could see we'd clearly worked on ways to crack New Zealand. But we really did just bottle it.
Also, what I noticed this time which I didn't before is just how terrible Keith Earls was. When it comes to try scoring he's one of our best ever. But ask him to execute a pass under pressure and he bricks it. Did the same against Samoa. We made a nice little decoy play on Saturday. Used a few forwards as a screen and popped a pass to Earls who'd come from the far wing. When it came the time to pass to Larmour who was screaming for it in loads of space, Earls tucked the ball and ran.
If you want to see a more well rounded attacking game from Ireland then I don't think Earls fits. You either get a second playmaker at 12 or 15, who can get the ball quickly to a finisher like Earls. Or you get a wing who is actually comfortable coming infield and acting as an auxiliary linkman to play that pass to space. I don't think we currently have the 12 or 15 for the former, but we've wings who are definitely more comfortable with the latter.
There was also a very well worked 4 on 3 worked by the team, think it was early in the second half off a set piece. Murray had the ball and just needed to straighten and pass but he did the same thing he's been doing for 12+ months and took the wrong option. Took contact and the move was dead.
I was shouting at be the tv so I imagine Joe must have been absolutely livid."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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Sounds soccer phone-in show style management advice.
So you're saying no player during 2019 improved their play with more gametime, they were all dropped or they didn't get better? Glad your take away from all of 2019 appears to fit in perfectly with you worldview, the repetition is helpful.
There isn't a one size fits all solution to how to get players back in form. Competition is great when there are replacement players that have shown they come at least come close to the peak of the incumbent, but we didn't have that at SH or OH. It was either making the decision to move on from Murray and/or Sexton and developing a plan around that decision or dropping them for a game or two as some kind of 'no one is undropable' message to the team. The latter seems completely daft to me.
Sounds completely daft to me to keep picking or playing guys clearly out of form and hoping they magically find that form on the grass.
Form matters. There was six months before the World Cup for these guys to recover form. If they don’t recover that form, you go with next guy up. With Murray having not recovered his form, Ireland would have been better off with McGrath or Marmion starting anyway.
It also matters in terms of the message you’re sending to the squad. Dropping one of the most established players on the team shows no position is safe and places are up for grabs which should result in everyone lifting their game.0 -
He invaded Russia in the winter. Repeated old mistakes that were predictable.0
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ClanofLams wrote: »To repeat again I’m not angling for anyone in particular. I’m arguing for performances having consequences, that’s a massively important thing for a squad at any level.
I don’t agree you have to play them or move on. I’m not suggesting O’Mahony or Murray should be dropped completely. I’m suggesting the coach says ‘your form isn’t good enough so you’re dropped. We both know the talent you have so you need to get back to that level’ or ‘Johnny you know the respect I have for you. But your performance was so poor the last day that I had no option but to put a guy with two caps on with half an hour left’.
There was European Cup, league play offs, warm ups,etc left. I think that’s plenty of time for guys to recover form. It’s not like any of these guys lack experience so much they desperately needed another game in the six nations.
Performances being irrelevant, as they have appeared to be in Schmidt’s eyes this year will never result in success.
That's fine if they were going back to the same club and getting to play together in all the games you listed but they weren't going to play a competitive game alongside each other until the WC.
Again, the problem is that we had no one to replace them that is near close to their level when they are on form. There is no example that you pointed to of NZ or other teams making selections on form where the drop off in player's ceilings is as drastic as the Irish SH and OH.0 -
ClanofLams wrote: »Sounds completely daft to me to keep picking or playing guys clearly out of form and hoping they magically find that form on the grass.
Form matters. There was six months before the World Cup for these guys to recover form. If they don’t recover that form, you go with next guy up. With Murray having not recovered his form, Ireland would have been better off with McGrath or Marmion starting anyway.
It also matters in terms of the message you’re sending to the squad. Dropping one of the most established players on the team shows no position is safe and places are up for grabs which should result in everyone lifting their game.
Just to clarify, you're also saying that no player has ever regained form through more playing time, that benching is the only way they regain it?0 -
Competition is great when there are replacement players that have shown they come at least come close to the peak of the incumbent, but we didn't have that at SH or OH.
How did we know? Murray had a poor 6N. Sexton wasn't much better.
Maybe try McGrath, Marmion, Cooney, Carty or Carberry?
Or maybe keep saying " they'll come into form, they just need time".
Must be disheartening for the back ups to think "best hope I have of game time is injury or 10 minutes at the end of the match"0 -
Just to clarify, you're also saying that no player has ever regained form through more playing time, that benching is the only way they regain it?
I’m saying that consistent poor performances for a national team need to have consequences. I’m saying that when a guy is the worst player on the pitch by some distance that shouldn’t be tolerated for seventy plus mins.
They had played what fifty times together? I really don’t think missing a game or two last March would make much difference to their performances six months on.0 -
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Sounds soccer phone-in show style management advice.
So you're saying no player during 2019 improved their play with more gametime, they were all dropped or they didn't get better? Glad your take away from all of 2019 appears to fit in perfectly with you worldview, the repetition is helpful.
There isn't a one size fits all solution to how to get players back in form. Competition is great when there are replacement players that have shown they come at least come close to the peak of the incumbent, but we didn't have that at SH or OH. It was either making the decision to move on from Murray and/or Sexton and developing a plan around that decision or dropping them for a game or two as some kind of 'no one is undropable' message to the team. The latter seems completely daft to me.
If there's one thing I absolutely hate about Irish rugby it's this talk of the "incumbent". Like they have a lease plan on the jersey and it requires a court order to get it back. The club/province is where the player goes back to get form. The national team is not the place for it. Form selections have gone out the window this past 12 months.
Ruddock is arguably the best 6 on form yet couldn't get past "2 tackles, 2 carries" POM.
McGrath playing better than Murray.
Byrne playing better than Sexton.
Conway way ahead of Earl's.
Conan far better than CJ at 8.
Larmour playing excellent stuff but getting scraps all around the backline.
Toner has a couple of bad games yet gets axed from the team for a journeyman.
No consistency at all this past 12 months."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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How did we know? Murray had a poor 6N. Sexton wasn't much better.
Maybe try McGrath, Marmion, Cooney, Carty or Carberry?
Or maybe keep saying " they'll come into form, they just need time".
Must be disheartening for the back ups to think "best hope I have of game time is injury or 10 minutes at the end of the match"
Because none of the other options have ever consistently lived up to the level of peak Sexton or Murray at provincial level or their chances at Irish level.
Maybe any of the options you listed could have taken a huge step to that of their peak levels if given the big 6 nations games but I see little evidence to support that opinion.0 -
ClanofLams wrote: »I’m saying that consistent poor performances for a national team need to have consequences. I’m saying that when a guy is the worst player on the pitch by some distance that shouldn’t be tolerated for seventy plus mins.
They had played what fifty times together? I really don’t think missing a game or two last March would make much difference to their performances six months on.
Care to answer the question I actually asked?0 -
Because none of the other options have ever consistently lived up to the level of peak Sexton or Murray at provincial level or their chances at Irish level.
Maybe any of the options you listed could have taken a huge step to that of their peak levels if given the big 6 nations games but I see little evidence to support that opinion.
Well neither Sexton nor Murray were anywhere near their peak form so it's a completely mute argument."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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Because none of the other options have ever consistently lived up to the level of peak Sexton or Murray at provincial level or their chances at Irish level.
Maybe any of the options you listed could have taken a huge step to that of their peak levels if given the big 6 nations games but I see little evidence to support that opinion.
Murray and Sexton haven't consistently lived up to peak Murray or Sexton for over a year.
Are you basing your opinion on the alternatives based on the token run-out they get when games are dead and buried?0
This discussion has been closed.
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