Alberto Salazar banned for 4 years

Itziger · 10-10-2019 04:35PM

chasingpaper wrote: »

That is exactly my point! You can look at individual stats (season bests, like the post i replied to) but they mean very little without context.

It doesn't help when people simplify things to try to make a point like 7,6,7,6,1, it is 3:51.95 so essentially 3:52. Her PB improved 4 seconds in 4 years. The years in between she might not have ran a race where time reflected her shape.
Or you could manipulate the data a different way. PB went from 236 seconds to 232 seconds over 4 years or a 1.7% improvement, which looks a bit different to going from 7 to 1!

I am not saying it is normal but there are many reasons it could happen. I am sure Ciara Mageean is clean and she has similar "abnormal" jumps.

How can you be sure that anyone is clean? Unless you know the person intimately that's not possible.

If you had the time you could go to a big club and ask 100 people there about a runner who was joining and who had the times you posted above for Hassan. All 5 years were either 56 or 57. This is not opinion and it is stretching credibility to think that she had 5 years where no race presented itself for her to show her true ability. This runner is EVIDENTLY a 3.56/57 runner. There is no debate here. So you ask the people at the club what you think this runner might hope to achieve with a change of air. Anyone who said 3.51 or 52 would be getting funny looks. Do you agree?

Sinbad_NI · 10-10-2019 04:38PM

But 5 sec to get to almost WR pace vs. 5 sec to get to ~9 sec slower is a huge difference.

walshb · 10-10-2019 06:03PM

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

But 5 sec to get to almost WR pace vs. 5 sec to get to ~9 sec slower is a huge difference.

It is a difference, and that is where levels come into it..

Torsevt · 10-10-2019 06:37PM

I've mostly lost faith in the elites, latest lowlights

-Tirunesh Dibaba and Genzebe Dibaba in the same hotel as Jama Aden and EPO

-Mo Farah Saga

-Paula Radcliffe debacle_ she seems to have been under suspicion behind the scenes for years and had a variety of excuses when it went public

-The Morrocans, doping seems to be endemic , hard to believe in Hicham El Guerriouj now

-widespread Kenyan doping, how good are they without Epo

Sinbad_NI · 10-10-2019 06:51PM

Torsevt wrote: »

...

-widespread Kenyan doping, how good are they without Epo

Most likely just the same as everyone else.

Sinbad_NI · 10-10-2019 06:53PM

walshb wrote: »

It is a difference, and that is where levels come into it..

I'd be more surprised if Hassan was proved to be clean than I would be if Ciara was found to be cheating.

Just the sad state of all sports these days.

Itziger · 10-10-2019 06:53PM

Torsevt wrote: »

I've mostly lost faith in the elites, latest lowlights

-Tirunesh Dibaba and Genzebe Dibaba in the same hotel as Jama Aden and EPO

-Mo Farah Saga

-Paula Radcliffe debacle_ she seems to have been under suspicion behind the scenes for years and had a variety of excuses when it went public

-The Morrocans, doping seems to be endemic , hard to believe in Hicham El Guerriouj now

-widespread Kenyan doping, how good are they without Epo

That's a fairly short list!! Seriously.

walshb · 10-10-2019 07:18PM

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I'd be more surprised if Hassan was proved to be clean than I would be if Ciara was found to be cheating.

Just the sad state of all sports these days.

So, what sort time you think Hassan should be at?

Should she be close to or at Ciara?

How about Muir? I believe Muir to be clean. She’s a good 40 metres ahead of Ciara at 1500...

Like I said, they all can’t be equal. Clear gaps can exist, and that includes between the top elites..

Look at Bolt....and only 100 metres of track. Why was he so clearly ahead of the rest? If ALL at the top are cheats, why still some of these clear gaps...

walshb · 10-10-2019 07:25PM

They really need to think hard about this PEDs business...

With all this whingeing and moaning and slating and crying and suspicion etc, just leave people alone. Let them compete, take whatever they want to ingest. They are all adults. Some will choose to take whatever to improve, others won’t, and others will be somewhere in the middle. Let’s start enjoying the brilliance of what people can do. There should be enough good products to go around, as well as enough intelligent and shrewd experts to ensure certain levels of safety.

The whole health and safety angle is a crock of sh1t. Far more dangerous sports out there, like boxing, F1, Rugby etc, than athletes running around, who happen to have prescribed and intelligently administered drugs in their system...

And whomever doesn’t want to take illegal drugs, or any drugs, leave them to it. Just tell them to stfu crying foul every time someone beats them...

Torsevt · 10-10-2019 09:44PM

walshb wrote: »

They really need to think hard about this PEDs business...

With all this whingeing and moaning and slating and crying and suspicion etc, just leave people alone. Let them compete, take whatever they want to ingest. They are all adults. Some will choose to take whatever to improve, others won’t, and others will be somewhere in the middle. Let’s start enjoying the brilliance of what people can do. There should be enough good products to go around, as well as enough intelligent and shrewd experts to ensure certain levels of safety.

The whole health and safety angle is a crock of sh1t. Far more dangerous sports out there, like boxing, F1, Rugby etc, than athletes running around, who happen to have prescribed and intelligently administered drugs in their system...

And whomever doesn’t want to take illegal drugs, or any drugs, leave them to it. Just tell them to stfu crying foul every time someone beats them...

2/10

RacoonQueen · 11-10-2019 05:55AM

walshb - can we dial it back please

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I find it interesting that most people's initial position, myself included, is that you always assume your country men or women to be clean by default yet others to be dirty.

Ciara's reactions afterwards and since smack of someone who has worked her arse off to get faster, the clean way, to me.
Everything about her is so different than it was a couple of years ago, her attitude, her confidence, her self belief. She moved to Manchester a couple of years ago and the changes have been small and slow but after the semi-final and final in Doha it all seemed to come together.

Torsevt · 11-10-2019 06:21AM

On a serious note abandoning drug testing means you're abandoning any clean athletes that wish to participate in elite athletics.

At least with a semblance of testing and sanctions the clean athletes have some slim chance of competing.

The Health and Safety of athletes is an important part of anti doping.

Remember back to the 90s and the 50% hct rule was brought in to protect the riders, they would risk their lives and health otherwise.

Also a confidential study showed that athletes would damage their long term health with peds for glory.

Sinbad_NI · 11-10-2019 06:46AM

The spate of cyclists who died from EPO in the late 80s, early 90s shows us why it's not a good idea to have a PED open house.

Or look at Salazar, isn't one of his former athletes on thyroid drugs for life because of his doping plan.

Ceepo · 11-10-2019 06:50AM

Nike shut down Oregon project...

https://www.flotrack.org/articles/6572771-nike-shuts-down-nike-oregon-project

average_runner · 11-10-2019 08:02AM

walshb wrote: »

Here's one.....how is Ciara making similar gains without using a doping coach?

Both dropped similar amount of time in different calendar years....circa 5 seconds...

Ciara only moved to a fully professional new balance group in the last 18 months.

walshb · 11-10-2019 08:12AM

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

The spate of cyclists who died from EPO in the late 80s, early 90s shows us why it's not a good idea to have a PED open house.

Or look at Salazar, isn't one of his former athletes on thyroid drugs for life because of his doping plan.

Doesn't have to be an open house. We are in the 21st century, with the best of medicines, technology, knowledge and expertise. I am sure there are plenty cyclists who took drugs that are alive and well today.

Plenty athletes alive and well today who were on the juice. Look at Johnson; juiced to the gills, and still alive today.

Other sports suffer plenty deaths due to the very nature of the sports alone.

Many many many people dying every day of the week from cigarettes, alcohol, and other vices. It's life. It's people. Stop restricting them, and holding them back on the track, and in other sports...they are already trying everything legal and illegal to improve. It's what people do.

I don't see the big issue with allowing athletes make their own choice and what they try to enable them to perform better. You can bet that most would use in a somewhat safer and controlled way. That's what the experts are here for.

walshb · 11-10-2019 09:06AM

average_runner wrote: »

Ciara only moved to a fully professional new balance group in the last 18 months.

Great. She still dropped the 'same' amount time as Hassan in a calendar year.....

chasingpaper · 11-10-2019 09:10AM

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

You mention context.

Don't forget the context that she's been working with a convicted doping coach while her pb improved substantially.

No smoke without fire.

You have me there, it is a massive red flag!
I was really just pointing to the original post of times, and wanted to show it is comparable to other athletes and times alone are not enough.

Itziger wrote: »

How can you be sure that anyone is clean? Unless you know the person intimately that's not possible.

If you had the time you could go to a big club and ask 100 people there about a runner who was joining and who had the times you posted above for Hassan. All 5 years were either 56 or 57. This is not opinion and it is stretching credibility to think that she had 5 years where no race presented itself for her to show her true ability. This runner is EVIDENTLY a 3.56/57 runner. There is no debate here. So you ask the people at the club what you think this runner might hope to achieve with a change of air. Anyone who said 3.51 or 52 would be getting funny looks. Do you agree?

I don't know 100% but we have to make assumptions to get by in life. I am much more likely to believe in an athlete under Irish, or even UK or US, antidoping. Even if they take banned substance they still have to stay within parameters to pass a test. This is not the case in some other countries in east Africa and Caribbean.

I get what you are saying in your second example but people often stagnate for few years and then improve with a change. It is fairly common.

As for not getting a race to show a time I find that plausible.
2015 set PB in Monaco 3:56.05. Monaco almost always throws out fast middle distance times. She probably tried to peak in world champs, ran 4:09 in slow final which was won in 4:08.

2016 assuming she targeted Rio. She ran 4:11 and finished 5th in slow final won in 4:08.
Looks like a stagnation, she went to diamond league in Paris 11 days later and ran SB of 3:57.13. Only time under 4 minutes this year.

Move to NOP at end of 2016.

2017 Every race bar championship ones she goes sub 4.
Opens with 3:56.22 3:56.14 within 3 days of each other 8 weeks out from Worlds. Ran 4:03 in the final, which was won in 4:2.
Didn't run 1500 at monaco, but did 800m PB of 1.7s there.
Also PB's at 5000 but it was soft.
Would say she improved as a runner in 2017, but was not reflected in PBs

2018 No major champs.
PBs at 5000 significant improvement, HM and 3000. Although some of them were soft for the caliber of athlete she was at the time. It appeared she was using 2018 as a year to focus on endurance after improving 800m speed in 2017.
She only ran 4 1500s this year.
Another year goes by without a PB in 1500 but she PBs in every distance above that.

2019 PBs in June and July in 1500 with 3:55.93 and 3:55.30 in Monaco on the way to Mile. Now she is seeing time improvement in 1500 that improvement over 800, 3000m, 5000m, HM suggested.
So in Doha, she gets to a race where she decides to make it a fast final. Maybe having lost all the other slow finals played in her mind. I'm guessing she is fully tapered and peaked for Doha. The 10,000m was run literally at her half marathon pace for 8.5k and then she ran a 3:59 to finish.

So in your scenario, if they know this runner wasn't focused on 1500 the whole time. They spent a year improving basic speed 800(2017 for Hassan but I do think she was in shape to run a PB that year). A year improving endurance(2018), then maybe people would say you are in shape for massive pb if you get the right race.

God this was a long post, but it was mostly for myself to see what her progression was really like! For all that, Hassan still could be dirty and there is a cloud over her.

youngrun · 11-10-2019 09:17AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/world-athletics-championships-defied-belief-but-some-people-just-lapped-it-up-1.4045495?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fsport%2Fworld-athletics-championships-defied-belief-but-some-people-just-lapped-it-up-1.4045495

Subscriber only but you get the message
Had a read of the actual paper

Eamonn Sweeney also had a ripping article in Sunday Indo

Irish media really has it in for athletics it seems. No other sport gets as much mud slung at it.
Where does that leave Athletics Ireland and its 60k+ members are they all tarred with the same brush + its stars at the World Champs?

There is a huge amount of allegation and guilty verdicts being handed down in the media by sensationalist and ill informed commentators .
Imho there are a number of political and personal vendettas around the Russia banning and NOP project which have distorted the picture and muddied the waters and media image to promote the answer certain countries or people want . Theres always a bad guy needed. Cases like Wilson, Coleman, Merritt etc make me think it even more .

Regardless of the above para I find it hard to see how the sports image will ever change despite the most testing and intense scrutiny . It is difficult as a fan to take.

Ceepo · 11-10-2019 09:21AM

walshb wrote: »

Great. She still dropped the 'same' amount time as Hassan in a calendar year.....

I coached 2 athletes for a marathon. 1 had a pb of 3.43 and he improve his time to 3.28
The other had a PB of 2.57 he improve this time to 2.42..
Both improved but is it the same

Ceepo · 11-10-2019 09:26AM

walshb wrote: »

Doesn't have to be an open house. We are in the 21st century, with the best of medicines, technology, knowledge and expertise. I am sure there are plenty cyclists who took drugs that are alive and well today.

Plenty athletes alive and well today who were on the juice. Look at Johnson; juiced to the gills, and still alive today.

Other sports suffer plenty deaths due to the very nature of the sports alone.

Many many many people dying every day of the week from cigarettes, alcohol, and other vices. It's life. It's people. Stop restricting them, and holding them back on the track, and in other sports...they are already trying everything legal and illegal to improve. It's what people do.

I don't see the big issue with allowing athletes make their own choice and what they try to enable them to perform better. You can bet that most would use in a somewhat safer and controlled way. That's what the experts are here for.

So now you're gone from their all clean to let everyone take peds. Do you want to see who has the best chemist/doctor and not the best physiologically

The mind boggles

average_runner · 11-10-2019 09:32AM

walshb wrote: »

Great. She still dropped the 'same' amount time as Hassan in a calendar year.....

Yeah but because Hassan was already in a professional setup and Ciara wasn't, you would say there is a better scope for Ciara to improve.

walshb · 11-10-2019 09:40AM

Ceepo wrote: »

So now you're gone from their all clean to let everyone take peds. Do you want to see who has the best chemist/doctor and not the best physiologically

The mind boggles

The mind does boggle, alright. As nowhere did I ever say they were all clean...

And my post on PEDs is just putting out my views and opinions on the whole PEDs in sport debater..I wouldn't take it personally. Just a discussion. I believe that PEDs should be permitted in track and field.

It's separate discussion to this Salazar debate.

walshb · 11-10-2019 09:43AM

Ceepo wrote: »

I coached 2 athletes for a marathon. 1 had a pb of 3.43 and he improve his time to 3.28
The other had a PB of 2.57 he improve this time to 2.42..
Both improved but is it the same

Like I said several times, levels...

Ciraa is at a certain level, and so is Hassan, and others.

Ciara probably has a 3.58/3.57 in her. I think she herself said that low 3.50s is not where she will ever get. That is not because she is not using PEDs, it's because that is her level.

Other athletes have higher levels. Hassan is one, and it doest mean she has to be dirty to be at that level...

Ceepo · 11-10-2019 09:51AM

walshb wrote: »

Like I said several times, levels...

Ciraa is at a certain level, and so is Hassan, and others.

Ciara probably has a 3.58/3.57 in her. I think she herself said that low 3.50s is not where she will ever get. That is not because she is not using PEDs, it's because that is her level.

Other athletes have higher levels. Hassan is one, and it doest mean she has to be dirty to be at that level...

Far more scope to improve from 4.05 to 4.00 that 3.56 to 3.51 considering the amount of people that ran respective times

walshb · 11-10-2019 09:55AM

Ceepo wrote: »

Far more scope to improve from 4.05 to 4.00 that 3.56 to 3.51 considering the amount of people that ran respective times

And you cannot dismiss that there has always been, and always will,be a select group of athletes that are able to run the real WR type times.....in men and women.

The sub 3.30 men at 1500 is one type club. Then there are those who are 3.38 type who got to low 3.30s through hard work and training, and yes, some through PEDs....

Though, at 1500 now and recently, it's the sub 3.29 type club...

spurup · 11-10-2019 09:57AM

STB. wrote: »

It took him 2 years to seperate himself from Salazar.

2 years after Panorama first aired the allegations.

2 missed drug tests in 2011.

Plenty of allegations

Wheres your proof?

Ceepo · 11-10-2019 10:44AM

walshb wrote: »

The sub 3.30 men at 1500 is one type club. Then there are those who are 3.38 type who got to low 3.30s through hard work and training, and yes, some through PEDs....

So you're open to some taking peds to improve but not open to Hassan doing the same..
3.38 to 3.30 is one thing 3.30 to 3.27 ( 1 sec of wr) complete different similar to 4.03 to 3.56 and 3.56 to 3.51 ( 1 sec of wr)
Especially when you consider the others who have similar time are so dubious..

walshb · 11-10-2019 11:15AM

Ceepo wrote: »

So you're open to some taking peds to improve but not open to Hassan doing the same..
3.38 to 3.30 is one thing 3.30 to 3.27 ( 1 sec of wr) complete different similar to 4.03 to 3.56 and 3.56 to 3.51 ( 1 sec of wr)
Especially when you consider the others who have similar time are so dubious..

Not with you here.

I just made some observations about levels, and this not being black and white...

There are levels in people....

I used the sub 3.30 club as an example. These lads are the elites of the 1500. Are they all clean? No.

I am simply saying that levels allow athletes to be faster and slower.

I mentioned some athletes at the 3.38 type bracket, who may never ever get to 3.30 or below, PEDs or not.

BTW, 3.38 to 3.30 is quite an impressive improvement. 3.30 is real elite level...

Open to some taking PEDs to improve but not Hassan? Sorry, I am lost on this one.....never said that or implied it...

Simple: Across elite and world level, there are athletes doing it clean and athletes doing it dirty.......

Both sets of athletes can achieve these times, clean or dirty. EL G is the leader at 3.26. I believe he was clean. I also believe that 3.26, albeit a super time, is possible from humans without PEDs.

Same for Dibaba and Hassan....could be clean or dirty. Both never failed tests, and it's quite possible that both ran their great times clean.

Ceepo · 11-10-2019 01:09PM

Some of the real cost to clean athletes..

https://www.womensrunning.com/2019/10/news/cheated-dopers-steal-more-than-medals_103126

Isn't it great to see Salazer and his ilk getting banned..

Alberto Salazar banned for 4 years

Comments