Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

mcmoustache · 10-09-2019 12:51AM

Memnoch wrote: »

The only thing that exceeds the pro brexit propaganda in the United Kingdom is the anti Jeremy corbyn propaganda which you seem to have bought into wholesale.

I can't really buy into that as I don't read that kind of sh!te. My issues with Corbyn are ideological.

As far as I can tell, he's a slightly closeted marxist. And I don't mean that in the sense that he would be described as a cultural marxist by some alt-right twit for saying that women should have rights - I mean it in the sense that he legitimately believes in a controlled economy.

Some might like that, but I don't. As I said, it's ideoligical.

Tell me how · 10-09-2019 12:51AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is all over for five weeks now.

Hope the thread continues meanwhile. Off to sleep now.

(the mikes should be turned off for anyone other than the MP speaking BTW), then let it rip when they have finished speaking. It is just ridiculous how they shout and roar over each other. But as I said before it must be tradition or something. But can sound infantile.

It tells it's own story. The madness of the night is conveyed even more so with the sound of heckling.

Strazdas · 10-09-2019 12:53AM

Enzokk wrote: »

Politicians are a funny bunch, the Tories were trying to force through a Tory Brexit like they spoke for all people. Now that they have lost 6 votes one of the MPs takes on the SNP for not speaking for all of Scotland. Hypocrite much?

Ah, Francois talking now. He is spouting about the Lisbon Treaty and how Labour is afraid of a general election, but the Tories weren't looking for one on Monday. Funny what losing your majority can do for your principles.

Complete nonsense about a referendum on the Treaty - the Brexiteers are convinced they could have prevented Lisbon ever being ratified with a mere advisory referendum (little more than a glorified opinion poll under UK law).

BonnieSituation · 10-09-2019 12:54AM

Tell me how wrote: »

The absolute madness of a Conservative MP asking the speaker to allow for additional time to debate the deal which Boris is going to get, when he gets it.
On the night when that party is proroguing Parliament for 5 weeks.

It was a disgrace.

10-09-2019 12:54AM

Not often I have a coffee at 6.53am watching the Commons live.

What a shltshow. That 250m a week comment just spits in the face of every bit of logic that has come out in the last few years. I can't believe he argued the big red bus again. "Enough for five hospitals or five thousand nurses."

Lucy8080 · 10-09-2019 12:57AM

Here's me googling the word "Tergiversation". Every day is a school day!

sdanseo · 10-09-2019 12:58AM

Strikes me no one expected that suspension. Is something happening at the eleventh hour or does Bercow need the loo?

Shelga · 10-09-2019 01:00AM

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Here's me googling the word "Tergiversation". Every day is a school day!

Haha me too! He does like his flowery language alright, basically means ‘prevarication’, right.

RickBlaine · 10-09-2019 01:00AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Strikes me no one expected that suspension. Is something happening at the eleventh hour or does Bercow need the loo?

He looks shattered. It's been a long day for him.

Enzokk · 10-09-2019 01:01AM

I am done, I can complain about the behaviour all night but it will only make me miserable. I think the reason why there was a noisy room tonight was that many politicians spent a lot of time in the bars beforehand and thus it was worse than other times. Another one of those situations where parliamentarians get away with behaviour that would get most people fired on the spot.

hometruths · 10-09-2019 01:01AM

Whilst this is disastrous for Johnson for those of us following the minutiae, he may yet get some credit where it counts - with undecided voters.

It is hard to argue with the point that he makes saying if opposition parties want to delay Brexit, ask the people and get the mandate for that delay.

If you are trying to sum up what happened tonight, whatever you think of the characters involved, essentially it can be explained by saying one party sought a general election to break the deadlock in parliament, and the others said no, the deadlock suits us presently. If that is the narrative, I think it is a strong one in Johnson's favour.

What are his next steps? I still think he will try and get imminent agreement from Europe for TM's deal with a customs border down the Irish sea, special status for NI etc, and he will try and pass that through the house before October 31st.

If he fails to get that through the house I think he will resign as PM on the grounds that he will not ask for extension, thereby clearing the way for somebody else - most probably Corbyn - to ask for the extension.

As soon as it is requested, he could call for a Vote of No Confidence in that government, which I suspect he will win.

Nobody else can form a government, Johnson will have his election, will campaign on I will deliver Brexit and not humiliate Britain by asking for another extension etc etc.

In that scenario I think the Tories might do well. With the Lib Dems campaigning on revoke, and Labour on a second referendum it will be very interesting!!

Lucy8080 · 10-09-2019 01:03AM

Shelga wrote: »

Haha me too! He does like his flowery language alright, basically means ‘prevarication’, right.

Yup,but also desertion of a cause,position,party or faith. What an interesting word!

BonnieSituation · 10-09-2019 01:04AM

The suspension until 110am did come out of nowhere. Any

delly · 10-09-2019 01:04AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Strikes me no one expected that suspension. Is something happening at the eleventh hour or does Bercow need the loo?

Did he not say they are back at 01:10.

sdanseo · 10-09-2019 01:05AM

delly wrote: »

Did he not say they are back at 01:10.

Yes brief suspension not adjourned.

I want it to be something dramatic, it's like watching a horrible, three year long horror movie.

On the flip side, he could quite literally have just needed to use the facilities.

Duane Dibbley · 10-09-2019 01:05AM

Boris is clearly not going to ask for an extension no matter if he is breaking the law or not.

Tell me how · 10-09-2019 01:06AM

schmittel wrote: »

Whilst this is disastrous for Johnson for those of us following the minutiae, he may yet get some credit where it counts - with undecided voters.

It is hard to argue with the point that he makes saying if opposition parties want to delay Brexit, ask the people and get the mandate for that delay.

It is entirely disengenuous to suggest that looking for a General election is Johnson trying to give the people a say on Brexit. The simplest way to do that would be to grant the wishes of those who asked for it in the debate of a peoples vote with Remain and the negotiated WA being the two options on the ballet.

If they had selected to have a GE tonight, the Tory strategy would not be to clarify Brexit for the population but to attack Corbyn and the Labour for being socialists and saying that it is paramount that they are stopped.

sdanseo · 10-09-2019 01:08AM

Tell me how wrote: »

It is entirely disengenuous to suggest that looking for a General election is Johnson trying to give the people a say on Brexit.

While that is true, his argument that the opposition are afraid of an election because they think they'd lose is utterly correct. I'm for a new referendum all day and night but oppositions refusing elections is nearly unheard of and completely unsustainable, in the short term it might get them past the 31st October deadline but will be no help for the next one. It's a dangerous game - they could easily be seen as the ones being undemocratic by the British public.

Tell me how · 10-09-2019 01:10AM

sdanseo wrote: »

While that is true, his argument that the opposition are afraid of an election because they think they'd lose is utterly correct. I'm for a new referendum all day and night but oppositions refusing elections is nearly unheard of and completely unsustainable, in the short term it might get them past the 31st October deadline but will be no help for the next one. It's a dangerous game - they could easily be seen as the ones being undemocratic by the British public.

I actually believe in this instance that their motivations for not allowing an election are because of the implications doing so now could mean in relation to Brexit.

J Mysterio · 10-09-2019 01:13AM

Apparently this happened??...

https://twitter.com/NewtonEmerson/status/1171179834371973122

hometruths · 10-09-2019 01:14AM

Tell me how wrote: »

It is entirely disengenuous to suggest that looking for a General election is Johnson trying to give the people a say on Brexit. The simplest way to do that would be to grant the wishes of those who asked for it in the debate of a peoples vote with Remain and the negotiated WA being the two options on the ballet.

If they had selected to have a GE tonight, the Tory strategy would not be to clarify Brexit for the population but to attack Corbyn and the Labour for being socialists and saying that it is paramount that they are stopped.

But we keep being told that it takes 6 months to organise a referendum so that option is not available.

And the fact is clear that they need a General Election. There is no functioning government at the minute. They will likely lose the Queen's Speech.

And the point I was making was more about the question Johnson was asking Corbyn - "if you want to ensure Brexit is delayed, agree to an election and if you win it, you can delay it. I will campaign on no delay under any circumstances, and if I win it, you must respect the will of the people. What is the problem with that?"

BonnieSituation · 10-09-2019 01:16AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Yes brief suspension not adjourned.

I want it to be something dramatic, it's like watching a horrible, three year long horror movie.

On the flip side, he could quite literally have just needed to use the facilities.

Parliament has been suspended for 10 minutes to prepare for the prorogation formalities.

hometruths · 10-09-2019 01:18AM

Tell me how wrote: »

I actually believe in this instance that their motivations for not allowing an election are because of the implications doing so now could mean in relation to Brexit.

That's as may be but irrespective of their motives, as sdanseo correctly says they are opening themselves up to the accusations of being undemocratic.

sdanseo · 10-09-2019 01:18AM

Tell me how wrote: »

I actually believe in this instance that their motivations for not allowing an election are because of the implications doing so now could mean in relation to Brexit.

If they won a majority they could repeal using emergency legislation in a matter of hours after parliament was recalled. The same goes for almost any combination of hung parliament excluding the DUP and of course SF.

They are not confident, and are doing the right thing in the circumstances in the national interest in my view - but the Brits are quite a patriotic bunch and will be easily led by BJ propaganda.

If the alternative vote referendum hadn't been shot out of the water 8 years ago you would probably have seen an attempt to change the system of voting in the last few days and weeks. But in context of being so recently defeated that proposition would be on just as thin water as another Brexit vote.

In any case, probably safe to say this wasn't a toilet break. Something has happened. How important it was (could be anything from a smashed lightbulb to Boris jumping off the roof) we'll see in a moment as the camera is just back on.

sdanseo · 10-09-2019 01:19AM

Black Rod coming?

J Mysterio · 10-09-2019 01:20AM

schmittel wrote: »

That's as may be but irrespective of their motives, as sdanseo correctly says they are opening themselves up to the accusations of being undemocratic.

They already have. He's closing parliament and proclaiming he wont follow law as enacted by parliament, and approved by the queen. Thats pretty undemocratic.

BonnieSituation · 10-09-2019 01:20AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Black Rod coming?

Yup.

You could watch her heading down from the Lords TV. It was odd.

sdanseo · 10-09-2019 01:22AM

MPs look like they are refusing to leave the chamber.

Bercow may be about to do the same.

Edit: balls, he's just having a rant before he capitulates.

BonnieSituation · 10-09-2019 01:22AM

Bit of a kerfuffle at the Speakers Chair

hometruths · 10-09-2019 01:24AM

J Mysterio wrote: »

They already have. He's closing parliament and proclaiming he wont follow law as enacted by parliament, and approved by the queen. Thats pretty undemocratic.

He has not actually said he will not follow the law. He merely said he will not under any circumstances ask for an extension.

Hence I said I think he could resign. I do not believe he will actively flout the law as prime minister, it is a complete nonsense suggestion.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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