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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭ElectronVolt


    You know something: These islands are so screwed up at times I should have emigrated decades ago. There are times I just get so fed up dealing with these circular arguments and dogmatic positions that I just don't really know what to make of it anymore.

    I should have packed my bags and gone somewhere sane.

    This isn't some stupid game on the internet or a discussion in the pub. It's going to have real world impact on people's livelihoods and lives and may even restart a deadly conflict, but no - all that matters is that points are scored in some ridiculous debate, while all pragmatism goes out the window.

    It's all fine and well sitting there behind your keyboard - ranting away. It's the rest of us who have to deal with the real world consequences : businesses damaged and lives screwed up.

    It's no wonder people are disillusioned with politicians and politics.

    This isn't a game, a debate in some pompous university debating club or an online flame war between trolls. It's the real world and has real consequences.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭Popeleo


    Is no-one going to tell me why I'm ghastly then? If the allegation that was made cannot be backed up then it needs to be withdrawn.

    The comment was clearly aimed at the Brexit Party and not its supporters - there was no allegation against you, so stop trying to personalise it and cause a scene. As for you personally, people can make up their own minds after a quick perusal of your posting history. Maybe they will pick a different adjective.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    ted1 wrote: »
    I can see them putting the border in the Irish Sea yet.


    What’s gas is if we make things hate for them and they eventually ask to rejoin they’ll have to give to the pound.

    It should be across the English Channel or as Francophones call it, "La Manche."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    So did Newcastle's but Nottingham voted to Leave.

    The Referendum was UK wide so the fact that different areas voted different ways is meaningless.

    How easily you dismiss years of peace and the potential of violence and refusing the backstop against the wishes of the NI majority as meaningless.....


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It should be across the English Channel or as Francophones call it, "La Manche."
    This is more likely than ever having heard the words today(yesterday) about a "gradual" introduction of rules that Ireland are expected to implement or otherwise other EU nations are to "back stop" these expectations if Ireland is unable or unwilling to comply with due to the political issues with separating NI from Ireland.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    You know something: These islands are so screwed up at times I should have emigrated decades ago. There are times I just get so fed up dealing with these circular arguments and dogmatic positions that I just don't really know what to make of it anymore.

    I should have packed my bags and gone somewhere sane.

    This isn't some stupid game on the internet or a discussion in the pub. It's going to have real world impact on people's livelihoods and lives and may even restart a deadly conflict, but no - all that matters is that points are scored in some ridiculous debate, while all pragmatism goes out the window.

    It's all fine and well sitting there behind your keyboard - ranting away. It's the rest of us who have to deal with the real world consequences : businesses damaged and lives screwed up.

    It's no wonder people are disillusioned with politicians and politics.

    I dunno, I'm quite impressed with Irish politicians and observers in all of this. They come across as reasoned intelligent and organised. They have been baited and scorned, derided and insulted and yet have been calm, reasonable and remained open to all alternatives. On an international stage I'm very proud to be Irish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭ElectronVolt


    SeaBreezes wrote: »
    I dunno, I'm quite impressed with Irish politicians and observers in all of this. They come across as reasoned intelligent and organised. They have been baited and scorned, derided and insulted and yet have been calm, reasonable and remained open to all alternatives. On an international stage I'm very proud to be Irish.

    I'm talking about the NI and GB politicians in this case. I could see a lot of people just becoming fed up with the toxicity and remoteness from the real world and just switching off, tarring them all with the same brush.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    The Referendum was UK wide so the fact that different areas voted different ways is meaningless.

    You should join the Tory party with a statement like that. I hear they've a few vacancies.

    It most certainly is not meaningless, in the context of constituent countries of the UK which voted by large majority to remain - Scotland which recently had a referendum for independence that lost by not much less than a third of the majority that voted to remain in the EU; and Northern Ireland in which a border poll as an unintended result of a hard Brexit is such a distinct possibility that the DUP are bringing it up in the Commons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 030802


    Any solution needs to be accepted by all parties and you cannot constrain another country to accept a deal against its will. Ireland and the EU have a relationship between them which means that they should be able to agree a solution. If not, maybe the ECJ can enforce one.

    Grand. Just go then. We gently advise you not to, but please own your decision and its consequences.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,292 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I'm sure Cameron has regrets about Brexit, but wherever he is now, he has to be laughing his head off at the mess his old frenemy Johnson finds himself in.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    briany wrote: »
    I'm sure Cameron has regrets about Brexit, but wherever he is now, he has to be laughing his head off at the mess his old frenemy Johnson finds himself in.

    Whatever regrets he might have, resigning certainly isn't one of them!
    Best decision he ever made and that he made it so swiftly after the result shows he was in a different league to May and BJ.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    Two countries are involved in the GFA, the UK and Ireland.

    If the GFA requires open borders and free trade (as is claimed by the EU) then the two countries obviously need to have Common Travel Area and a Free Trade Agreement. Any other Treaties or Agreements should be subject to this.
    ... And neither party would be allowed to unilaterally leave such common travel area and free trade agreement without proposing a solution which is equivalent and agreed to by the other side.
    Now you get it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Two countries are involved in the GFA, the UK and Ireland.

    If the GFA requires open borders and free trade (as is claimed by the EU) then the two countries obviously need to have Common Travel Area and a Free Trade Agreement. Any other Treaties or Agreements should be subject to this.

    No sh1t. And it is the UK who is leaving our union which enables this. That is why the UK are being asked to help solve the problem, not simpy back out without a solution and blame the EU for the resultant problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Strazdas wrote: »
    I referred to the BXP being a ghastly party and said I believed many of their members (electoral candidates) are closet racists.

    I cannot comment on their 'supporters' or voters as I don't have enough information about them.

    They are ghastly, uninformed, or both.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    So did Newcastle's but Nottingham voted to Leave.

    The Referendum was UK wide so the fact that different areas voted different ways is meaningless.
    Neither Newcastle but Nottingham are subject to a peace treaty based on membership of the EU to resolve a centuries long racist murderous oppression and suppression of Irish people by British.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    Any solution needs to be accepted by all parties and you cannot constrain another country to accept a deal against its will.
    Indeed - no backstop, no deal.
    Ireland and the EU have a relationship between them which means that they should be able to agree a solution. If not, maybe the ECJ can enforce one.
    Indeed the solution is no backstop, no deal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Forty Seven


    fash wrote: »
    So did Newcastle's but Nottingham voted to Leave.

    The Referendum was UK wide so the fact that different areas voted different ways is meaningless.
    Neither Newcastle but Nottingham are subject to a peace treaty based on membership of the EU to resolve a centuries long racist murderous oppression and suppression of Irish people by British.

    Irish are not a seperate race so you can shuffle that card right back into your pack.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    It should be across the English Channel or as Francophones call it, "La Manche."
    So long as the UK agreed to follow Ireland's rules, then sure thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭Timistry


    Of course leave could win again, that would be fair enough, off with them.

    Just like giving Boris a majority in the election, they would bring the locusts/rain of frogs etc on themselves and I will be stockpiling popcorn as the show will not be over for a long, long time.

    The thing that gets me about brexit is how they STILL cant see what they voted for was a lie, a false dawn, a con. Even as the stark reality becomes fact, in law, no, lets forge ahead. In years gone by in the "empire" it would be treason and the gallows to attempt to destroy your economy. Hope that the vote today becomes law


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    One poll gives the Tories 340 seats in an October election, and just 266 if the UK is still in the EU in November:

    https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1170019633702821891

    Any poll showing Scotland with a CON seat isn't worth considering. They're beyond dusht there.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Youth are rallying.

    Nearly 200,000 people have applied to register to vote in just 72 hours, and more than half of them are under 35.

    BBC


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭Timistry


    Of course leave could win again, that would be fair enough, off with them.

    Just like giving Boris a majority in the election, they would bring the locusts/rain of frogs etc on themselves and I will be stockpiling popcorn as the show will not be over for a long, long time.
    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Youth are rallying.

    Nearly 200,000 people have applied to register to vote in just 72 hours, and more than half of them are under 35.

    BBC

    Not the thick drones that the media portrays them to be then


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Personally I would have been quite happy for that, but I have never said that Ireland should leave the Single Market anyway. The Single Market is the EU's problem, they need to work out how you have full access to the Single Market (as is your right) without breaching the GFA which they claim is of paramount importance.

    The EU has a solution but Brexiteers keep voting against it, 3 times now. You need to ask the likes of Mark Francois why he keeps delaying Brexit when a solution was provided for him. Your Company Director has also rejected the solution, it is not up to the EU to provide you with solutions for problems you keep creating. There are other areas that need their attention and frankly the UK isn't really that important that we will bend the rules for you only. Carry on like you have and you will find this out the hard way, taking jobs and possible lives on this island with you.

    Is no-one going to tell me why I'm ghastly then? If the allegation that was made cannot be backed up then it needs to be withdrawn.

    Post above leads to this one, if you are happy to accept that lives are a price to pay for a "clean Brexit", then your views are ghastly. Your support for a organization whose views are racist would make your beliefs ghastly as well. I concede that you may not hold the same views as your Company Director, but I would question why you would be a supporter of a company if you didn't share those views.

    By the way, did you know you could now become a member of the Brexit Club for only £100 per month? Now I am not one to say how you should spend your money but you could get VIP access to conferences and rallies. I am sure the Company Director would even be happy to have your picture taken with him for that investment. You would still not have a say in the direction the company takes though, that would not suit a private company. You would have to become a shareholder for that but the way the company is going they surely soon will be able to list on the stock market and you will then have your chance to buy shares to have a say.

    The Brexit Party has launched a members' club - here's what you get for £100 a month
    Nigel Farage's party, which is formally registered as a company, has found new ways increase cash support with a members' club.

    For £100 a month, the party's website offers "VIP" access to conferences and rallies. Tickets to the conference tour ordinarily retail at £5 each, but the accompanying picture - of Farage standing at a party event surrounded by supporters - suggests that the club membership might secure you time with the company director himself.

    briany wrote: »
    I'm sure Cameron has regrets about Brexit, but wherever he is now, he has to be laughing his head off at the mess his old frenemy Johnson finds himself in.


    I don't think he cares how Brexit is going, if he did he would have come out against it by now like Major has. Seeing as he has remained quiet and content in his home, I think the assumption that he is fine with the events unfolding is not a unreasonable assumption.

    I do agree that he likely has some delight in the fact that his old Etonian schoolmate it having a tough time, its all banter among old school friends that makes for a great reunion at the school.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Another prime example of why the UK finds itself in the trouble it does,

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1170086060568846338?s=20
    Boris Johnson would rather defy the law than ask for another Brexit delay, he has indicated, as Labour was accused of plunging Britain into a constitutional crisis

    It takes some creative thinking to think that defying the law and ignoring a law passed by parliament as PM is not the reason for a constitutional crises, but the opposition somehow is to blame for that.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    In Parliamentary elections a Scottish Vote counts more than an English one, just as in European Elections a UK vote counts less than that of any other nation.
    France has a lower ratio of population to MEPs than the UK does. But its basically the same for each of Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain give or take a few thousand people.

    But don't let facts get in the way.


  • Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    robinph wrote: »
    France has a lower ratio of population to MEPs than the UK does. But its basically the same for each of Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain give or take a few thousand people.

    But don't let facts get in the way.

    Surely that can't be. Germany and France literally rule Europe, don't they?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    Irish are not a seperate race so you can shuffle that card right back into your pack.
    So which actions by the British in Ireland do you deny? Just to start:
    The religious oppression? The genocidal actions of Cromwell?
    The genocidal famine?
    More recently, the gerrymandering and voter suppression in northern Ireland- a state specifically set up as a sectarian supremacist enclave where the state occasionally instructed companies to "fire the Catholics"? The 160 civilians (61 children) killed /murdered (and where such murder was suppressed by the British state) by British soldiers in northern Ireland? The various false imprisonments arising from that?
    I would appreciate your response.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Forty Seven


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Youth are rallying.

    Nearly 200,000 people have applied to register to vote in just 72 hours, and more than half of them are under 35.

    BBC

    My partner registered to vote yesterday. She lives in Angus, currently Tory. She is voting Tory as the only viable option to keep out the snp and try to prevent independence. She is 31. Make of that what you will.

    Tory candidate won a 6.6% majority in 2017. It's her first time in parliament and she is one of the youngest MPs at 30 years of age. Asked how she voted in the 2016 referendum she stated she 'didn't vote as the choice was too difficult'.

    The youth ladies and gentlemen. Don't be expecting too much from the under 35s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Forty Seven


    fash wrote: »
    Irish are not a seperate race so you can shuffle that card right back into your pack.
    So which actions by the British in Ireland do you deny? Just to start:
    The religious oppression? The genocidal actions of Cromwell?
    The genocidal famine?
    More recently, the gerrymandering and voter suppression in northern Ireland- a state specifically set up as a sectarian supremacist enclave where the state occasionally instructed companies to "fire the Catholics"? The 160 civilians (61 children) killed /murdered (and where such murder was suppressed by the British state) by British soldiers in northern Ireland? The various false imprisonments arising from that?
    I would appreciate your response.

    I deny any of it met the definition of racist. What with us being of the same race and all.

    As for Cromwell. Did he affect you in any way? Can I drag up the Germans shooting at my grandfathers for some outrage aimed at the eu? That was a bit more recent and a tad more deadly. How far down the annals of history do you want to go?

    Deal with the current crisis and get off your pity pot. ancient history has no place here.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    I deny any of it met the definition of racist. What with us being of the same race and all.

    As for Cromwell. Did he affect you in any way? Can I drag up the Germans shooting at my grandfathers for some outrage aimed at the eu? That was a bit more recent and a tad more deadly. How far down the annals of history do you want to go?

    Deal with the current crisis and get off your pity pot. ancient history has no place here.

    Well recent history has shown that since the formation of the EEC/EU, Europeans have stopped shooting at each other.
    It has been the most murderous continent on the earth over the past few hundred years. Remember the age of imperialism and nationalism culminated in the industrial mass murder of human beings in purpose built facilities the likes of which this world has never seen before or since. And now we have politicians in the UK telling us that a return to nationalism is the way forward.


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