Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk · 05-09-2019 03:22PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

The lst two paragraphs of your own link clearly state what you are seeking.

Do you mean first two or last two paragraphs?

Here is the 1st two paragraphs,

Transgender politics – like any politics – can be divisive. Yet in the case of Karen White, who is legally still a man but was put in a female-only prison, both sides of the transgender rights debate are united in the belief mistakes were made.

White entered the UK prison system as transgender. However, despite dressing as a woman, the 52-year-old had not undergone any surgery and was still legally a male. She was also a convicted paedophile and on remand for grievous bodily harm, burglary, multiple rapes and other sexual offences against women.

And here is the last 2 paragraphs,

Whatever the case with White, it is clear the prison service is under increasing pressure in this “rapidly developing area of policy”.

But Bishop argues that cases like White’s are still rare.

“The case boards are a good way of doing things – you can’t say the system is wrong when it goes wrong once. It is almost the exception that proves the rule – you’ve just got to look at what went wrong and make sure it doesn’t happen again. No system is perfect. It’s human nature that people will sometimes get it wrong.”

I think you mean this part,

The new 60-page policy introduced in January 2017 emphasised the right of prisoners to “self-identify” and to be treated “according to the gender in which they identify”. Previously, prisoners requiring such treatment would have needed a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) or to have had a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Citing article 8 of the European convention on human rights, the new policy allowed those who did not have the GRC and who identified as a different gender to their biological sex to be located “in the part of the estate consistent with the gender they identify with”.

That is the only place where the ECHR is mentioned, but if you had read the article you would have seen the problem with this case was not the ECHR, it was that there were failures to determine whether it would have been appropriate to place her in the womans prison.

Those who met White were shocked that she was moved to a female prison, describing the convicted sex offender as “manipulative and controlling”, and questioned her commitment to her transition. The Ministry of Justice has since apologised for the placement.

For now, White is being held at HM Prison Leeds, a category B men’s prison, and is undergoing gender reassignment surgery.

So it seems quite clear to me that the ECHR article 8 obviously doesn't do what you think it does as the person is in a men's prison when the article was printed. If it did then surely she could have appealed it and be sent to a woman's prison, or do I have that wrong?

Forty Seven wrote: »

Nobody here in the UK cares about policies. This will be a one issue referendum. That must be obvious from the last results of various polls. Lib dem surge is a remain vote, brexit party is leave. Since then polarisation is much stronger given the debacle we face. The only difference is that Boris moved the Tories onto the brexit parties ground.

What about the 2017 election? Just after article 50 was triggered and May was trying to get a majority for her Brexit, and she lost it because?

Seth Brundle · 05-09-2019 03:22PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If ''No Deal Brexit'' passes into law, is it there for good? Even with a new PM in place. Does it confirm once and for all that there can never be a 'No Deal Brexit''

No deal is the default exit regardless of any votes held in Westminster. This is what the UK are currently sailing towards and *will* happen (despite the recent WM vote) unless they either revoke Art 50, accept the WA or ask and receive an extension.

prawnsambo · 05-09-2019 03:24PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

I didn't but I'm sure the people involved carried out an assessment on their chance of contesting this and decided it was a losing battle. UK government against a marginalised group currently making lots of noise rarely goes well for them.

I would quote "hard cases make bad law" here, but this wasn't a case before the ECHR and ascribing the motivation for a bad decision to the possibility of a case being taken to the ECHR and winning, is more than a stretch. And as has been pointed out, the ECHR is not part of the EU and in fact predates it; with its origins being back in the days of Winston Churchill.

So I think the original question still stands unanswered.

Forty Seven · 05-09-2019 03:24PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

Nobody here in the UK cares about policies. This will be a one issue referendum. That must be obvious from the last results of various polls. Lib dem surge is a remain vote, brexit party is leave. Since then polarisation is much stronger given the debacle we face. The only difference is that Boris moved the Tories onto the brexit parties ground.

Other issues will arise even if it looks like a single-issue campaign now.
Last time it was the likes of Grenfell, the Manchester suicide bomber, the Dementia tax, Corbynmania v the IRA sympathiser questions etc.
I don't know what it'll be this time obviously.
Some of the debates (chancellor v shadow, home sec v shadow) will be deliberately framed by the broadcasters as non-Brexit.

Any issue like this has the potential to move the votes a key 1% or 2% even in a 'nobody cares about politics' scenario.

Austerity ended yesterday. Nobody is talking about it. That was as big as it gets.

Maybe a resurgence of NI violence could swing a % here and there but unlikely in the timeframe.

Seth Brundle · 05-09-2019 03:25PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Quite incredible that Johnson has not had a single meeting with Varadkar since he became PM given that the border is the single biggest issue in Brexit atm.

Johnson is scheduled to meet Varadkar on Monday, the same day that they will now try and push through a general election.
Will Boris change his plans and stay in London now?

RobertKK · 05-09-2019 03:25PM

It was said on Sky News by Lewis Goodall that Boris Johnson could be planning on breaking the law.
That he has no plan to ask the EU for an extension even if the law is passed requiring him to, and the opposition will not allow an election since they have Boris Johnson in this hole.
Then Corbyn steps in when Johnson is not following the law and takes over leading the country, and this is why there will be no election until November at the earliest.
Johnson is cornered and the opposition have no plans on releasing him with an election that he wants so to escape from his current predicament.

Enzokk · 05-09-2019 03:27PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jun/18/brussels-seeks-to-tie-uk-to-european-human-rights-court-after-brexit

They don't but God forbid we would want to leave them. It is a sticking point for some in Theresa Mays deal.

People obviously doesn't understand the ECHR and the EU. All they see is EUROPEAN Convention/Court of Human Rights and they assume it is the EU. It is there in the article you posted yourself,

The court, which is entirely separate to the EU’s institutions, was established after the second world war as an arbiter of disputes over the European convention of human rights, to which 47 states are signatories.

In any case, what are your thoughts about the ECHR, the GFA and Brexit?

Enzokk · 05-09-2019 03:31PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Austerity ended yesterday. Nobody is talking about it. That was as big as it gets.

Maybe a resurgence of NI violence could swing a % here and there but unlikely in the timeframe.

If you think one budget/spending review, and before an election at that, will stop austerity then I have a bridge to sell you.

Seth Brundle · 05-09-2019 03:37PM

Guy criticising the use of the "surrender" terminology last night...
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1169603638458818566

Meanwhile Sammy is reassured by Gove on the future of agriculture in NI after what they're doing...
https://twitter.com/eastantrimmp/status/1169614622946672640

jm08 · 05-09-2019 03:42PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jun/18/brussels-seeks-to-tie-uk-to-european-human-rights-court-after-brexit

They don't but God forbid we would want to leave them. It is a sticking point for some in Theresa Mays deal.

If the UK wants a security agreement with the EU, the UK will need to have signed up to the ECHR. Countries who have signed up to the ECHR won't extradite people to a country that isn't signed up to the convention. If the UK wants to extradite any paramilitiries from the ROI to NI/UK, it can't do it.

Sam Russell · 05-09-2019 03:42PM

Enzokk wrote: »

If you think one budget/spending review, and before an election at that, will stop austerity then I have a bridge to sell you.

Is that the one from Larne to Stranraer? that Boris wanted to build?

prawnsambo · 05-09-2019 03:44PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It was said on Sky News by Lewis Goodall that Boris Johnson could be planning on breaking the law.
That he has no plan to ask the EU for an extension even if the law is passed requiring him to, and the opposition will not allow an election since they have Boris Johnson in this hole.
Then Corbyn steps in when Johnson is not following the law and takes over leading the country, and this is why there will be no election until November at the earliest.
Johnson is cornered and the opposition have no plans on releasing him with an election that he wants so to escape from his current predicament.

I know we're in 'what happens next' mode, but it's useful to stop and think about what's actually happened here. A lame duck PM, who's painted himself into a corner with his big red bus brush and is now squirming to try and get out without covering himself in paint and the opposition effectively running the parliament with all the power that he thought he'd have when he became World Kiing. It's like that point in the game of chess where your opponent can only make moves that end in checkmate. And rather than do that, is contemplating just sweeping the board onto the floor. But you've anticipated that and have photographed the board so you can just put it all back the way it was.

lawred2 · 05-09-2019 03:47PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is that the one from Larne to Stranraer? that Boris wanted to build?

How realistic is a 6 lane tunnel with rail to France?

As it goes - with our frequent need to take that Belfast to Cairnryan ferry I for one would gladly welcome Boris Johnson investing 100Bn of British taxpayer's money on such a bridge.

I'd like to see it as a precondition to unification that the bridge is complete.

gmisk · 05-09-2019 03:48PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is that the one from Larne to Stranraer? that Boris wanted to build?

Boris is obsessed with bridges!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/17/absurd-vanity-project-for-our-age-boris-johnson-garden-bridge

Forty Seven · 05-09-2019 03:51PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Do you mean first two or last two paragraphs?

Here is the 1st two paragraphs,

And here is the last 2 paragraphs,

I think you mean this part,

That is the only place where the ECHR is mentioned, but if you had read the article you would have seen the problem with this case was not the ECHR, it was that there were failures to determine whether it would have been appropriate to place her in the womans prison.

So it seems quite clear to me that the ECHR article 8 obviously doesn't do what you think it does as the person is in a men's prison when the article was printed. If it did then surely she could have appealed it and be sent to a woman's prison, or do I have that wrong?

What about the 2017 election? Just after article 50 was triggered and May was trying to get a majority for her Brexit, and she lost it because?

Thank you for highlighting my mistake, yes, you have the correct paragraphs there. The policy of allocation cited article 8. I agree it is the UKs interpretation. This case has highlighted deficiencies in the policy but it is article 8 that formed that policy in the first place. An appeal against being held in a male prison now is a moot point given the risk posed by the inmate. I believe transgender prisoners should be held in a seperate facility for their own and others safety but we all know that would be deemed discriminatory.

The 2017 election was a Corbyn love in with a dose of SNP fatigue on the question of independence. Haven't heard anyone singing oooh, Jeremy Corbyn recently. He has lost the momentum and has flip flopped so much nobody knows what he stands for. This new election is anyone's guess. In England and Wales it is Brexit. In Scotland it is Brexit but with a chaser of independence. In issues as large as these it would be foolish to vote on the basis of day to day policy.

nc6000 · 05-09-2019 03:56PM

Just saw some woman from the Brexit Party debating with Femi on Sky News, didn't catch her name but her view was that the Brexiteers won the referendum in 2016 so they get to decide they type of Brexit they implement. :rolleyes:

This is a selfie he took before the interview, the comments are interesting :

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1169623261812023296/photo/1

Two posts down says her name is Lucy Harris.

BluePlanet · 05-09-2019 03:57PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Quite incredible that Johnson has not had a single meeting with Varadkar since he became PM given that the border is the single biggest issue in Brexit atm.

As Merkel told Theresa May at her last EU council - "we are not the ones with the border with the Rep Ireland"...in other words, that's great but you should be talking to the Irish.

Hopefully the welcome is as warm as the snub.

I doubt the meeting will produce anything other than used by BoJo as a propaganda victory.

Headshot · 05-09-2019 04:00PM

Oh wow did anyone see that segment on Sky news

Lucy Harris v Femi

What a nasty woman and fair play to Kay Burley

Forty Seven · 05-09-2019 04:02PM

Enzokk wrote: »

In any case, what are your thoughts about the ECHR, the GFA and Brexit?

ECHR is fair enough. ECtHR is a court that has lost it's way becoming a very expensive nit picking exercise for governments trying their best to legislate but getting brought to court by individuals with marginal issues.

GFA is like any other agreement. Agreed in good faith and upheld in good faith during its time of operation. (Although I doubt the IRA decommisioned everything) Now it has become an issue in a seperate (much larger) quagmire and work needs to be done to make sure it is not compromised.

I'm a remainer, trapped in a country that wants to leave, I can see their side, I disagree but that is democracy. I live in Scotland and I'm a Unionist so I also face being further isolated or rejoining the EU.

If you think the NI border is a problem just wait until England realises they have no way to store their nuclear arsenal which will have to be removed immediately according to Nicola Sturgeon. A nuclear power disarmed overnight and another border that blocks NI access to England. Work that one out.

listermint · 05-09-2019 04:03PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Thank you for highlighting my mistake, yes, you have the correct paragraphs there. The policy of allocation cited article 8. I agree it is the UKs interpretation. This case has highlighted deficiencies in the policy but it is article 8 that formed that policy in the first place. An appeal against being held in a male prison now is a moot point given the risk posed by the inmate. I believe transgender prisoners should be held in a seperate facility for their own and others safety but we all know that would be deemed discriminatory.

The 2017 election was a Corbyn love in with a dose of SNP fatigue on the question of independence. Haven't heard anyone singing oooh, Jeremy Corbyn recently. He has lost the momentum and has flip flopped so much nobody knows what he stands for. This new election is anyone's guess. In England and Wales it is Brexit. In Scotland it is Brexit but with a chaser of independence. In issues as large as these it would be foolish to vote on the basis of day to day policy.

Aye Corbyns lost his momentum when this week alone he got a front page love in cover from the financial times of all places.

I see your still running off 'feelings' and not facts against the EU.

And you voted remain .. aye

Forty Seven · 05-09-2019 04:06PM

jm08 wrote: »

If the UK wants a security agreement with the EU, the UK will need to have signed up to the ECHR. Countries who have signed up to the ECHR won't extradite people to a country that isn't signed up to the convention. If the UK wants to extradite any paramilitiries from the ROI to NI/UK, it can't do it.

The Dutch refused to extradite a major drug dealer as his cell in Liverpool wasn't up to scratch.

Not the point but being in the ECHR didn't make a difference then. I'm sure a country like the UK could come to some arrangement regarding extradition. It does work both ways.

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 04:08PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

[Scottish Independence]another border that blocks NI access to England. Work that one out.

Most traffic from NI to England goes through Dublin already.

prawnsambo · 05-09-2019 04:09PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

If you think the NI border is a problem just wait until England realises they have no way to store their nuclear arsenal which will have to be removed immediately according to Nicola Sturgeon. A nuclear power disarmed overnight and another border that blocks NI access to England. Work that one out.

To be fair, moving a nuclear arsenal (difficult and all as that may be) is a manageable exercise given enough time. And Scottish independence (if it were to happen) would take a great deal of time. Welsh devolution took eight years and that was a small enough move in comparison. But the problems with the NI border will happen overnight, will have no lead in time, have no 'transition period' or any other sort of prep time. It will be one day in the same system as Ireland and the next it won't.

allthedoyles · 05-09-2019 04:11PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Most traffic from NI to England goes through Dublin already.

Many NI truckers are now using Larne-Birkenhead

nc6000 · 05-09-2019 04:13PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Most traffic from NI to England goes through Dublin already.

Except for Sammy Wilson, he takes his motorbike on the ferry to Scotland then makes his way over 600KMs down to London.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-s-wilson-happy-to-vote-down-may-s-brexit-deal-1.3757338

Forty Seven · 05-09-2019 04:13PM

listermint wrote: »

Aye Corbyns lost his momentum when this week alone he got a front page love in cover from the financial times of all places.

I see your still running off 'feelings' and not facts against the EU.

And you voted remain .. aye

I'm running off years of living here and what real people really think. If you are basing your opinions on headlines and newspaper photos then I would refer you to the chances trump had of winning the election.

And yes. I voted remain but we are leaving so I would rather they get on with it. I don't want to spend 2020 going through anymore of this nonsense. Let the cards fall where they may.

Jim2007 · 05-09-2019 04:13PM

jm08 wrote: »

If the UK wants a security agreement with the EU, the UK will need to have signed up to the ECHR. Countries who have signed up to the ECHR won't extradite people to a country that isn't signed up to the conveeention. If the UK wants to extradite any paramilitiries from the ROI to NI/UK, it can't do it.

The UK is signed up to the ECHR and there is no suggest that intend to leave it.

El Weirdo · 05-09-2019 04:14PM

Hold on, what has the ECtHR got to do with the EU? I thought they were separate institutions.

is_that_so · 05-09-2019 04:15PM

Mike Pence offered Boris a really tiny fig leaf! All porkies of course.

I spoke to President Trump this morning, your friend, and he sent his very best greetings and to assure you that the United States supports the UK’s decision to leave the European Union.

But he also wanted me to convey that the United States is ready, willing and able to immediately negotiate a free trade agreement with the UK.

El Weirdo · 05-09-2019 04:15PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

And yes. I voted remain but we are leaving so I would rather they get on with it. I don't want to spend 2020 going through anymore of this nonsense. Let the cards fall where they may.

I'm sorry, but if you think this won't be news for the next decade at least (whatever happens), then you have another think coming.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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