Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

RickBlaine · 04-09-2019 09:19PM

beggars_bush wrote: »

its a very archaic system with everyone needing legal advice about anything going on

I've watched loads of these debates over the years and it was my first time hearing an MP of over 4 years beginning a speech by highlighting to the speaker that she might accidentally break parliamentary procedures because she doesn't understand them all. It might be OK in a maiden speech but not after 4 years.

There are other MPs with the same level of education and parliamentary
experience as Phillips who seem to get by OK.

The cynic in me thinks it is a technique to paint herself as a "normal Joe Public" and distance herself from the Oxbridge elite. But that tactic seems unnecessary because she is a strong enough MP in her own right without needing to highlight that.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:21PM

Don't use lying in the house.

nc6000 · 04-09-2019 09:23PM

RickBlaine wrote:

The cynic in me thinks it is a technique to paint herself as a "normal Joe Public" and distance herself from the Oxbridge elite. But that tactic seems unnecessary because she is a strong enough MP in her own right without needing to highlight that.

In fairness I don't think Jess Phillips or many of her Labour colleagues need to do much to distance themselves from the Oxbridge elite.

hometruths · 04-09-2019 09:24PM

To be fair to the Tories it is difficult to find fault with the argument that the majority of them voted to trigger article 50, i.e leave on 29th March, and then failed to find any consensus to do so.

The current crop of MPs as a whole have shown they are unable to agree on a way to leave, so the only possible solution is a general election to try and get a new make up of MPs.

Yet Johnson is offering them one and now they are saying they don't want that either!

If Johnson loses this vote, as looks likely, I think he should offer to ask for the extension as the price of an election on October 14th.

He can campaign on give me a majority and I will make sure we leave on 31st October deal or no deal.

Similiarly Labour can campaign on we will leave but with a CU deal or whatever it might be.

And Lib dems can campaign on we will revoke Article 50.

If the electorate believe in any of the above positions, somebody will get a majority, and if it is Johnson, parliament ought to respect it.

It is clear that if there is an election on 14th October it is clearly a single issue election - Brexit. It is essentially a people's vote.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:24PM

RickBlaine wrote: »

I've watched loads of these debates over the years and it was my first time hearing an MP of over 4 years beginning a speech by highlighting to the speaker that she might accidentally break parliamentary procedures because she doesn't understand them all. It might be OK in a maiden speech but not after 4 years.

There are other MPs with the same level of education and parliamentary
experience as Phillips who seem to get by OK.

The cynic in me thinks it is a technique to paint herself as a "normal Joe Public" and distance herself from the Oxbridge elite. But that tactic seems unnecessary because she is a strong enough MP in her own right without needing to highlight that.

I took that to mean she might say things that would be considered un parliamentary. I think it's far to say that any member of parliament in the world who is in their seat 4 years would not know as much, or maybe know it off hand like speakers of parliaments who by the nature of their positions are assumed to have a very good knowledge of the procedures.

Sardonicat · 04-09-2019 09:26PM

There's a lot of MPs still sitting on the opposition benches. Are they abstaining?

DOCARCH · 04-09-2019 09:26PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

When are they starting ? Some of the peers aren't in the summer of their lives.

Thursday I believe?

If House of Lords sits 24/7, then no matter how long it takes (48, 72, 96 hours, etc.) to get through all the amendments, it is counted as one day.

If the House of Lords is still on its Thursday sitting on Monday, I think proroguing parliament/HOC has to be delayed until House of Lords sitting has ended.

Capt'n Midnight · 04-09-2019 09:26PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Don't use lying in the house.

No

don't accuse someone of lying to the house

Allegedly fired for lying

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:26PM

The house of Lords is in session.

gooch2k9 · 04-09-2019 09:26PM

schmittel wrote: »

To be fair to the Tories it is difficult to find fault with the argument that the majority of them voted to trigger article 50, i.e leave on 29th March, and then failed to find any consensus to do so.

The current crop of MPs as a whole have shown they are unable to agree on a way to leave, so the only possible solution is a general election to try and get a new make up of MPs.

Yet Johnson is offering them one and now they are saying they don't want that either!

If Johnson loses this vote, as looks likely, I think he should offer to ask for the extension as the price of an election on October 14th.

He can campaign on give me a majority and I will make sure we leave on 31st October deal or no deal.

Similiarly Labour can campaign on we will leave but with a CU deal or whatever it might be.

And Lib dems can campaign on we will revoke Article 50.

If the electorate believe in any of the above positions, somebody will get a majority, and if it is Johnson, parliament ought to respect it.

It is clear that if there is an election on 14th October it is clearly a single issue election - Brexit. It is essentially a people's vote.

That would be fine with a PM who is trusted. He would get what he wants immediately and the opposition are left waiting for him to honour his side of the deal. They will never go for that.

Lucy8080 · 04-09-2019 09:26PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

92 amendments to the delay bill.

And they describe the backstop as "undemocratic".

It's gone up to 102 amendments now. Each must be voted on at least twice I think. That will take over one hundred hours according to some estimates.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:27PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

No

don't accuse someone of lying to the house

Allegedly fired for lying

I should have said don't use lying to describe something someone said.

10000maniacs · 04-09-2019 09:29PM

Has Stephen Kinnock, trying to make a name for himself inadvertently scuppered Benn's bill?
If his amendment is carried, I see a lot more peers not going for it.

MadYaker · 04-09-2019 09:29PM

schmittel wrote: »

To be fair to the Tories it is difficult to find fault with the argument that the majority of them voted to trigger article 50, i.e leave on 29th March, and then failed to find any consensus to do so.

The current crop of MPs as a whole have shown they are unable to agree on a way to leave, so the only possible solution is a general election to try and get a new make up of MPs.

Yet Johnson is offering them one and now they are saying they don't want that either!

If Johnson loses this vote, as looks likely, I think he should offer to ask for the extension as the price of an election on October 14th.

He can campaign on give me a majority and I will make sure we leave on 31st October deal or no deal.

Similiarly Labour can campaign on we will leave but with a CU deal or whatever it might be.

And Lib dems can campaign on we will revoke Article 50.

If the electorate believe in any of the above positions, somebody will get a majority, and if it is Johnson, parliament ought to respect it.

It is clear that if there is an election on 14th October it is clearly a single issue election - Brexit. It is essentially a people's vote.

Johnson couldn't lead them into an election anymore. Even if labour agreed to an election the brexit party would split the tory vote.

devnull · 04-09-2019 09:30PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

There's a lot of MPs still sitting on the opposition benches. Are they abstaining?

If they don't want an election they should just vote against it, abstaining is stupid and just giving Boris ammo that they should simply avoid.

I know some of them will say they want an election but not now so that is why they will abstain, but they need to think less about image and more about taking no risks and just doing what needs to be done to achieve their aims.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:31PM

DOCARCH wrote: »

Thursday I believe?

If House of Lords sits 24/7, then no matter how long it takes (48, 72, 96 hours, etc.) to get through all the amendments, it is counted as one day.

If the House of Lords is still on its Thursday sitting on Monday, I think proroguing parliament/HOC has to be delayed until House of Lords sitting has ended.

So the house of Lords is the parliamentary equivalent of Mastermind ? They've started so they'll finish.

Panrich · 04-09-2019 09:32PM

schmittel wrote: »

To be fair to the Tories it is difficult to find fault with the argument that the majority of them voted to trigger article 50, i.e leave on 29th March, and then failed to find any consensus to do so.

The current crop of MPs as a whole have shown they are unable to agree on a way to leave, so the only possible solution is a general election to try and get a new make up of MPs.

Yet Johnson is offering them one and now they are saying they don't want that either!

If Johnson loses this vote, as looks likely, I think he should offer to ask for the extension as the price of an election on October 14th.

He can campaign on give me a majority and I will make sure we leave on 31st October deal or no deal.

Similiarly Labour can campaign on we will leave but with a CU deal or whatever it might be.

And Lib dems can campaign on we will revoke Article 50.

If the electorate believe in any of the above positions, somebody will get a majority, and if it is Johnson, parliament ought to respect it.

It is clear that if there is an election on 14th October it is clearly a single issue election - Brexit. It is essentially a people's vote.

I don’t think the tories deserve any sympathy here. TM waded in feet first ruling out CU-SM-ECJ before any engagement with the EU.

If there was consensus in the country and parliament that a hard Brexit was warranted then these red lines might have been understandable.

However given the closeness of the referendum result, the mandate was surely for very close alignment.

DOCARCH · 04-09-2019 09:32PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So the house of Lords is the parliamentary equivalent of Mastermind ? They've started so they'll finish.

That's what I heard on Newsnight last night.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:33PM

DOCARCH wrote: »

That's what I heard on Newsnight last night.

Fair enough but the house of Lords at the moment are having a vote on some amendment and having gone back to the last speaker it seems to be about the bill from the commons.

boggerman1 · 04-09-2019 09:34PM

Jeze that blond Tory woman on sky back on again tonight and still spouting the same bull about how great Johnson is.

devnull · 04-09-2019 09:35PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Fair enough but the house of Lords at the moment are having a vote on some amendment and having gone back to the last speaker it seems to be about the bill from the commons.

House of Lords is live here
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3ee21ab2-8e9e-4ea5-aa0c-ee785b88212c

If this vote fails then all eyes will be on Lords until Boris tries another way of manufacturing an election.

kowloon · 04-09-2019 09:35PM

Headshot wrote: »

This Brexit stuff is better than the last season of GOT

It's thrilling stuff

And people will be even more upset at how it ends.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:36PM

boggerman1 wrote: »

Jeze that blond Tory woman on sky back on again tonight and still spouting the same bull about how great Johnson is.

Any time I'm watching the HOC sittings I just watch a youtube streams which is in better quality then the official stream and I don't get the talking heads.

ath262 · 04-09-2019 09:36PM

66% not reached

devnull · 04-09-2019 09:36PM

VOTES FOR: 298
VOTES AGAINST: 56

amacca · 04-09-2019 09:37PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

Has Stephen Kinnock, trying to make a name for himself inadvertently scuppered Benn's bill?
If his amendment is carried, I see a lot more peers not going for it.

Tony Connelly seemed to be of the opinion that was at least a possibility I think.

Itssoeasy · 04-09-2019 09:37PM

Didn't get the required two thirds needed.

Akrasia · 04-09-2019 09:38PM

schmittel wrote: »

To be fair to the Tories it is difficult to find fault with the argument that the majority of them voted to trigger article 50, i.e leave on 29th March, and then failed to find any consensus to do so.

.

This whole ‘they voted for article 50 therefore they’re hypocrites to oppose no deal’ is a very dishonest argument. They voted for A50 in good faith that the government would negotiate a good deal to leave the EU while still retaining most of the benefits of being in the EU. Remember that long debate about whether it should be a hard brexit or a soft brexit? Well you don’t hear anything about soft brexit anymore, it’s as if that debate never existed. The ERG have successfully closed the options down to a Hard brexit, or catastrophic no deal. This has forced moderates to choose between accepting a hard brexit in the WA, or pushing for a 2nd referendum and calling the whole thing off.

sjb25 · 04-09-2019 09:39PM

Another zinger

Akrasia · 04-09-2019 09:39PM

Boris Johnson thinks the leader of the opposition is Marty McFly and he can get him to do anything by calling him a chicken if he doesn’t

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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