Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

briany wrote: »

In the event of a GE, a surge in seats for the Lib Dems will say to the Conservatives... absolutely nothing. Neither main party will acknowledge it, in fact. Any attempt to ask their representatives about it will be met with, "...we have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit..."

lawred2 wrote: »

Mother in law over from Scotland again - almost lost my nerve last night with her. I'll have to make the house a Brexit free zone for the next 10 days.

Wifey at one point while her Mum was going on about sovereignty just straight up blurted out - "Since when have you ever given two f**k ing ****s about sovereignty Mum?"

Apparently she can't stomach all the remoaner media (ALL of the media) and now she gets her fair analysis from youtube.. Gave us the whole EU forced Ireland into revotes spiel despite this being about the fourth visit where I've explained that to be a complete misrepresentation of reality. Also explained that the likes of youtube only serve up content based on what you've been watching previously - but she didn't quite get that. She simply went for the 'sure they can't all be lying'..

At that point I died inside.

There is no coming back from where people have gotten themselves I'm afraid. Reality and the desire to be rational has gone out the window.

My wife thinks it good for her to come here and get the opposite side of things because she's immersing herself in unchallenged fact free bullsh!t when she's at home... I don't know - I see it as a waste of time.

We did get around to her admitting that a lot of her vote was down to feeling worse off than she did 30 years ago... And I do think that's a real and tangible reality for a lot of British people. And it's understandable. For Irish people it's largely the opposite. She even began to concede that the referendum vote was largely a kick out at something perceived rightly or wrongly as a contributor. When asked for one thing that she sees as possibly being better for her in a year post Brexit - she shrugged and said 'probably nothing'...

Would she change her vote in another referendum?

No she wouldn't.

I won't even go into her views on backstop.

Peregrinus wrote: »

She absolutely did draw them. She spent months aftere becoming PM spouting platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit" and "Red, White and Blue Brexit" while she worked out what kind of Brexit she would pursue, and finally in her Florence speech she laid down her red lines that dictated that the UK would pursue a hard Brexit. That was absolutely her choice.

As for being "someone who campaigned for Remain", I never found her pose as a Remainer very convincing. She was the most milk-and-watery Remainer you could find.

My take on this is:

1. May was always a Leaver by instinct.

2. But she didn't think Leave was politically attainable, and didn't really think too deeply about what Leave might entail, or even about why it seemed to her to be a good idea.

3. When the referendum came, she didn't think Leave could win, and she wasn't going to expend political capital pursuing it. So she identified as Remainer but, for the reasons just given, it wasn't a very convincing pose.

4. When she became PM after the referendum Brexiters welcomed and supported her, suggesting that they shared my perception; they saw her as a Leaver, and they trusted her as one. Remember the outrage when the courts ruled that she had to be accountable to Parliament in her implementation of Brexit?

5. Her instinctive Leaver status turned out to be based on a dislike of immigrants. The one aspect of her Brexit on which she would never compromise was that the UK would not accept FoM. For that reason she set the "no Single Market" red line. The "no Customs Union" was there to win support from Brexiters motivated by a desire for the UK to pursue an independent trade policy. She was, it later turned out, willing to compromise somewhat on that, but she couldn't sell the compromise to the ultras (and as far as I can see didn't really try).

6. Brexiters only decided that she was a Remainer after all when she tried to craft a real-world Brexit. Since that involved making difficult choices, Brexiters either had to acknowledge that Brexit did involve difficult choices, something they had up to that point been in denial about, or denounce her. They chose the latter course.

Peregrinus wrote: »

She absolutely did draw them. She spent months aftere becoming PM spouting platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit" and "Red, White and Blue Brexit" while she worked out what kind of Brexit she would pursue, and finally in her Florence speech she laid down her red lines that dictated that the UK would pursue a hard Brexit. That was absolutely her choice.

As for being "someone who campaigned for Remain", I never found her pose as a Remainer very convincing. She was the most milk-and-watery Remainer you could find.

My take on this is:

1. May was always a Leaver by instinct.

2. But she didn't think Leave was politically attainable, and didn't really think too deeply about what Leave might entail, or even about why it seemed to her to be a good idea.

3. When the referendum came, she didn't think Leave could win, and she wasn't going to expend political capital pursuing it. So she identified as Remainer but, for the reasons just given, it wasn't a very convincing pose.

4. When she became PM after the referendum Brexiters welcomed and supported her, suggesting that they shared my perception; they saw her as a Leaver, and they trusted her as one. Remember the outrage when the courts ruled that she had to be accountable to Parliament in her implementation of Brexit?

5. Her instinctive Leaver status turned out to be based on a dislike of immigrants. The one aspect of her Brexit on which she would never compromise was that the UK would not accept FoM. For that reason she set the "no Single Market" red line. The "no Customs Union" was there to win support from Brexiters motivated by a desire for the UK to pursue an independent trade policy. She was, it later turned out, willing to compromise somewhat on that, but she couldn't sell the compromise to the ultras (and as far as I can see didn't really try).

6. Brexiters only decided that she was a Remainer after all when she tried to craft a real-world Brexit. Since that involved making difficult choices, Brexiters either had to acknowledge that Brexit did involve difficult choices, something they had up to that point been in denial about, or denounce her. They chose the latter course.

The ECHR can bind the hands of Parliament, adds nothing to our prosperity, makes us less secure by preventing the deportation of dangerous foreign nationals – and does nothing to change the attitudes of governments like Russia’s when it comes to human rights. So regardless of the EU referendum, my view is this. If we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its Court.

Outside the EU, for example, we would have no access to the European Arrest Warrant, which has allowed us to extradite more than 5,000 people from Britain to Europe in the last five years

And it is time to question some of the traditional British assumptions about our engagement with the EU. Do we stop the EU going in the wrong direction by shouting on the sidelines, or by leading and making the case for taking Europe in a better direction? And do we really still think it is in our interests to support automatically and unconditionally the EU’s further expansion? The states now negotiating to join the EU include Albania, Serbia and Turkey – countries with poor populations and serious problems with organised crime, corruption, and sometimes even terrorism. We have to ask ourselves, is it really right that the EU should just continue to expand, conferring upon all new member states all the rights of membership? Do we really think now is the time to contemplate a land border between the EU and countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria? Having agreed the end of the European principle of “ever closer union”, it is time to question the principle of ever wider expansion.

Deleted User wrote: »

OK I have to ask; what's this about hand towels?

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That lib dem constituency in Northern Scotland is sort of astonishing. Wasn’t aware of them having much traction in Scotland. Would have thought the further north in Scotland you went the bigger the SNP support you’d have