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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Boris is right. Sky media have a huge vested interest in subverting democracy and stopping Brexit.
    Once democracy is invoked you know someone doesn't really care about it, just a version that suits them. Referenda are the most risky form of democracy as they are subject to all manner of deception and manipulation. We know this because we've become pretty good at them. How does stopping Brexit supposedly benefit them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,789 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Is that unelected Boris who suspended parliament to prevent democratically elected MPs doing their democratic jobs?

    Trumpism has now infected this side of the Atlantic. This disease needs to run its course to expose to all the underlying idiocy and contradictions. UK is going to be sick man of Europe for decades, best we do our thing and not get dragged down by them.

    Why are you biting?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,113 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    very interesting point by Alex Andreou in the latest Remainiacs podcast.

    In summary, he said that all the posturing on No Deal and the impact it was having on the EU was nonsense as the EU are not looking at whether Johnson believes in No Deal or not, that is irrelevant really, but looking at the practicalities. Are the UK ready to leave without a deal 'on 31 Oct?

    Even based on the statements by Steve Barkley on Twitter it is very clear that they are in no way prepared for No Deal. So whilst Johnson may well claim to be prepared to crash out, the EU are aware that it would be monumentally stupid to do so.

    My own extension to that is that if Johnson is prepared to act so manifestly against the wishes of his country and the actually inflict real damage in the process then there is very little that can be negotiated as they are not dealing with a rational actor.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away. To think he is only there because of lies and deception and law breaking.

    'Culture of fear' claims as Javid confronts PM over adviser's sacking
    A furious Sajid Javid confronted Boris Johnson on Friday and demanded an explanation of why his media adviser was sacked without his knowledge, amid claims that a deep “culture of fear” has taken hold within the government.

    Sonia Khan, Javid’s media adviser, was escorted from No 10 by an armed police officer after a meeting with Johnson’s top strategist, Dominic Cummings, in which she was accused of being dishonest about her contact with the former chancellor Philip Hammond and one of his ex-advisers, who have been trying to block a no-deal Brexit.

    Khan is the second adviser working for the chancellor to be sacked by No 10. She is also the fourth young woman in a month to be axed from the prime minister’s network of advisers and senior staffers.

    Sounds like Cummings has a problem with woman if he is quick to fire them over what seems to be nothing.

    I did like this quote from John McDonnell which pretty much nails what is happening right now,
    The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, was among the critics of how Cummings had effectively undermined the chancellor and the Treasury. He tweeted: “Would be better if Dominic Cummings came along next week to present the spending review as he’s obviously in charge of the Treasury as well as No 10.

    “If you can’t speak without his permission and can’t even decide your own staffing, you’re hardly the chancellor.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,789 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away. To think he is only there because of lies and deception and law breaking.

    'Culture of fear' claims as Javid confronts PM over adviser's sacking



    Sounds like Cummings has a problem with woman if he is quick to fire them over what seems to be nothing.

    I did like this quote from John McDonnell which pretty much nails what is happening right now,

    Khan could resign like...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭MarinersBlues


    In reply to a deleted post that referenced this tweet
    https://mobile.twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1167162506135121926?s=21


    Interesting thread but he seems to have made an assumption, built arguments to support it and gone looking for data.

    The poor understanding of statistics and bayesian inference in the writers part could be intentional to support his points or unintentional because he is just messing around with tweets.

    It is an interesting theory though and I would expect it to be true, but he hasn't come close to proving it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,882 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away. To think he is only there because of lies and deception and law breaking.

    'Culture of fear' claims as Javid confronts PM over adviser's sacking

    Sounds like Cummings has a problem with woman if he is quick to fire them over what seems to be nothing.

    I did like this quote from John McDonnell which pretty much nails what is happening right now,
    Doesn't look like Cummings is the genius everyone thinks he is. This stuff is just going to turn the cabinet against Johnson/Cummings and the leaks will increase, not reduce. They'll just get better at not getting caught. And they're doing all this in public. As if to frighten everyone else. But it's also making the likes of Javid look weak. Childish stuff really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,882 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    In reply to a deleted post that referenced this tweet
    https://mobile.twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1167162506135121926?s=21

    Interesting thread but he seems to have made an assumption, built arguments to support it and gone looking for data.

    The poor understanding of statistics and bayesian inference in the writers part could be intentional to support his points or unintentional because he is just messing around with tweets.

    It is an interesting theory though and I would expect it to be true, but he hasn't come close to proving it.
    To be fair, I have noticed over the last couple of years, a lot of MAGA/Trump supporters tweeting in favour of brexit. It's a bit strange imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,113 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    This is the same Sajid Javid that was not even informed as to why he was not invited to attend the Trump dinner recently?

    The man knows he is only there as a tool for Johnson, he is no more the chancellor than I am


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    To be fair, I have noticed over the last couple of years, a lot of MAGA/Trump supporters tweeting in favour of brexit. It's a bit strange imo.

    Have a look at just one page of the replies. These are bots. There’s no two ways about it. Same exact language you see under trumps tweets


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Johnson has been quite shrewd though

    Mention all the things people are worried about - crime, policing, education funding

    They've found extra money for schools and next up will be the NHS

    It's like they're trying to buy off the middle class voting opposition


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,305 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    In summary, he said that all the posturing on No Deal and the impact it was having on the EU was nonsense as the EU are not looking at whether Johnson believes in No Deal or not, that is irrelevant really, but looking at the practicalities. Are the UK ready to leave without a deal 'on 31 Oct?

    The EU has also been completely consistent over many months now saying: "here's the deal we agreed, taking account of your country's red lines; if you don't like it, come up with a practical alternative that we can act on (within 30 days :P)." The UK responds with ... nothing.
    Enzokk wrote: »
    I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away.
    Only a little bit worrying. The logical outcome of these shenanigans is the break-up of the UK, leaving these people in charge of a much diminished England(&-did-someone-mention-Wales-?) If the UK loses Scotland and NI, it's entirely possible that the Crown will also lose affiliate territories like Gibraltar, the Channel Islands and Anguilla. Rather like BKtje, somewhat unfairly criticised above IMO, the people living in these areas will be constantly reviewing the strength of their bond with their supposed fellow-citizens hundreds/thousands of miles away, compared to the relationship they have with "foreigners" that they interact with every day. Dismantling democracy in the motherland could well precipitate a string of declarations of independence and a relalignment of economic interests.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,882 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo




  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    prawnsambo wrote: »

    That’s huge.

    This is the end of the tories


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,304 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    That’s huge.

    This is the end of the tories

    And the dawn of a glorious new era where dissent will not be tolerated and the party line will be strictly followed at all times.

    Any dissenters will be found and will be fired on the spot, before being frogmarched from governent buildings. Their phones will be checked and will be scrutinised. Only true believers are accepted and they must sign the pledge on indoctrination induction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭MarinersBlues


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    To be fair, I have noticed over the last couple of years, a lot of MAGA/Trump supporters tweeting in favour of brexit. It's a bit strange imo.

    Not really.
    Trump has spoken in favour of Brexit and media here and in the states have reffered to Boris as the English Trump.

    Warning rough estimates and scrap of paper maths coming! :D

    It would only take a small element of the 40% of American population that support Trump to match the number of No-Deal Brexiteers.

    327 mill in states - 40% support Trump = 130M

    66 million in Britain - 20% support no deal = 13.2 M
    12,177 individual accounts I analysed, 1025 were #MAGA accounts.

    proportion of Brexiteers retweeting = 11152/13200000 = 0.00084484848
    proportion of Trumper tweeting = 1025/66000000= 0.0000155303

    Tweets per million supporters is
    8448 for brexiteers vs 155 for Trumpers
    sounds acceptable to me given how cloesely aligned they are.

    Even if we took all the brexit supporters to be circa 40%
    4224 vs 155 would be acceptable to me as well.


    Having said that I would believe Cummings is at his tricks, but that thread doesn't prove it in the slightest.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    And the dawn of a glorious new era where dissent will not be tolerated and the party line will be strictly followed at all times.

    Any dissenters will be found and will be fired on the spot, before being frogmarched from governent buildings. Their phones will be checked and will be scrutinised. Only true believers are accepted and they must sign the pledge on indoctrination induction.

    Sure feels and looks like it is headed that very direction.

    “That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn't even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television. There wasn't even an enemy you could put your finger on.”
    ― Margaret Atwood


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,333 ✭✭✭✭briany


    What about JRM's comments that prorogation is just, 'normal procedure'? If it's such an egregious move, even the smooth-talking Mogg shouldn't be able to avoid being taken well to task on it by any half-competent interviewer. Or is it a case of 'malicious compliance'?

    Calling the move undemocratic - that may well be true, but the trouble is that it gets us nowhere. The people calling it undemocratic are in turn called undemocratic for trying to block Brexit. The word has become a grenade tossed back and forth between the trenches. Both sides are sure they have the moral high ground, so that it looks like we're in a political M.C. Escher drawing.

    And the architects of Brexit love it. They know it's paralysing, and all they need now is inertia to get to their goal. Just keep on feeding the fire, keep on digging that line of division, and it's game over.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    The propaganda campaign to whitewash American food has begun
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48915578

    Next they be telling people there's nothing wrong with gm and/or chlorinated food. At this rate it will be Irish farmers blocking the roads from North to protect their livelihoods.

    there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

    We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The propaganda campaign to whitewash American food has begun
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48915578

    Next they be telling people there's nothing wrong with gm and/or chlorinated food. At this rate it will be Irish farmers blocking the roads from North to protect their livelihoods.

    I just had a look at that article from British State TV and I read the first line of the article and I was shocked. It could have said in the opening paragraph that cheesemakers and cheesemongers believe that their products are being unfairly criticised, but instead it posted an opinion almost as fact.

    It was almost like it had been a plant by the right wing of the Tory party and the article is there for whitewashing purposes to assist their paymasters in the government. With the Tory party now refusing to speak to Channel 4 and setting pre-conditions for any interviews, it's likely that this won't get any better.

    British State TV really has fallen down so far from the reputation that it had in the past and this is just one of many other examples. It's just a mouthpiece for the government these days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

    We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.

    Its not washing the chicken in chlorine that is the problem, its why you have to do it in the first place. Its a less than satisfactory response to shoddy health standards. Food standards are way worse in the US and the rates of food poisining are greatly higher as a result. Food poisining is rare here, it seems to be a fairly normal occurance in the US.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Its not washing the chicken in chlorine that is the problem, its why you have to do it in the first place. Its a less than satisfactory response to shoddy health standards. Food standards are way worse in the US and the rates of food poisining are greatly higher as a result. Food poisining is rare here, it seems to be a fairly normal occurance in the US.

    the process in itself is not dangerous ,


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    the process in itself is not dangerous ,

    It’s why the process happens at all is the problem. As the poster pointed out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    the process in itself is not dangerous ,

    Perhaps you should re-read the post, I did not claim the process was dangerous, what the process is trying to hide is dangerous though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,882 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

    We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.
    The prepacked salads thing is a red herring. It's effectively washed in tap water that has chlorine in it. Like what comes out of your kitchen tap. The chlorine washing of chicken does not kill all the bacteria, it does 'hide' it though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,113 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42



    Doesn't come across as someone that is cracking under the UK pressure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    fash wrote: »
    Is it more, less or equally true to the statement from ToBeFrank123 that Labour, Corbyn and most of the opposition specifically voted against "the backstop" when voting against May's WA ? And if one actually believes that indeed it specifically was the "backstop" that attracted Labour ire (and not as you suggest a general "that's not my brexit, it is too fluffy" voting pattern), would you agree that this behaviour is inconsistent?
    I agree it wasn't specifically against the backstop when Labour voted against the WA but at the same time it can't be said that when they voted against the amendment that they were expressing support for the backstop. In both cases they were simply voting against everything that wasn't their version of Brexit.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Doesn't come across as someone that is cracking under the UK pressure.

    Funny. I had the same thought. Watch it be spun as exactly that by th usual outlets


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    briany wrote: »
    What about JRM's comments that prorogation is just, 'normal procedure'? If it's such an egregious move, even the smooth-talking Mogg shouldn't be able to avoid being taken well to task on it by any half-competent interviewer. Or is it a case of 'malicious compliance'?
    Obviously prorogation itself is fairly routine. It's its use strategically in this context that is causing consternation. However if it turns out to be legal then there's not much anyone can do.


This discussion has been closed.
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