Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

fr336 · 27-08-2019 02:21PM

If it had been March 29th it would have been a Spring clean Brexit...

Laois_Man · 27-08-2019 02:34PM

Farage - on one side of his mouth he says The Brexit party will do a deal with the Tory's if Johnson goes for a clean break Brexit and drops the WA....and he says this KNOWING that Johnson is openly promising to get WA passed if the Backstop is removed.

There'll be no Brexit/Tory pact then!

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1166327548483182592

It's almost enough to make you wonder whether those who suggest that Farage is actually an undercover remainer may have a point!

Enzokk · 27-08-2019 02:37PM

On Labour, I will gladly admit it seems I was wrong. Corbyn has said he will prioritize legislation to stop no-deal over a vote of no-confidence.

https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1166315438462124033?s=19

https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1166315883972780035?s=19

prawnsambo · 27-08-2019 02:37PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The phrase "Putting lipstick on a pig" springs to mind.

It's the same tired old sh1te. When 'hard/crash out' brexit became a thing due to the dawning realisation that all those extravagant promises couldn't possibly be met, it was re-branded as WTO brexit to try and create a positive image. Now that that fantasy is getting tarnished due to the pesky intrusion of reality, it's going through another name change to try and 'clean up' its image. And as I type this, I hear a BP caller to Shelagh Fogarty using this new sanitised version. Shelagh is trolling her about Farage's espousal of the Norway option. To which, of course the caller can't comment.

Tell me how · 27-08-2019 02:41PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

It's almost enough to make you wonder whether those who suggest that Farage is actually an undercover remainer may have a point!

This was back in 2018!

Professor Moriarty · 27-08-2019 02:44PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's the same tired old sh1te. When 'hard/crash out' brexit became a thing due to the dawning realisation that all those extravagant promises couldn't possibly be met, it was re-branded as WTO brexit to try and create a positive image. Now that that fantasy is getting tarnished due to the pesky intrusion of reality, it's going through another name change to try and 'clean up' its image. And as I type this, I hear a BP caller to Shelagh Fogarty using this new sanitised version. Shelagh is trolling her about Farage's espousal of the Norway option. To which, of course the caller can't comment.

Brexiteers have had a free run for the past month in the shape of the Tory leader election. They've now got people talking about what kind of Brexit they should have rather than whether there should be a Brexit. It will be interesting to see how the upcoming push back from anti-Brexiteers impacts on this monopoly of the media and discourse. Encouraging signs today where the leaders of all anti No Deal parties said that they had very constructive talks.

bobmalooka · 27-08-2019 02:48PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Farage - on one side of his mouth he says The Brexit party will do a deal with the Tory's if Johnson goes for a clean break Brexit and drops the WA....and he says this KNOWING that Johnson is openly promising to get WA passed if the Backstop is removed.

There'll be no Brexit/Tory pact then!

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1166327548483182592

It's almost enough to make you wonder whether those who suggest that Farage is actually an undercover remainer may have a point!

I’d say his single goal is to ensure a continued narrative for his politics career.

KildareP · 27-08-2019 03:04PM

bobmalooka wrote: »

I’d say his single goal is to ensure a continued narrative for his politics career.

Down to a tee.

He's effectively making himself redundant otherwise

It's already showing the signs of his next phase of action - that the Brexit path being pursued isn't "Brexity enough", it's not an honourable Brexit, not a pure Brexit, yada yada yada.

Doubt we'll see the back of Farage anytime soon.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 27-08-2019 03:16PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Brexit heroes... Good lord. Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

yeah it's beyond delusional.

Infini · 27-08-2019 03:22PM

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

yeah it's beyond delusional.

Rags like that should be shut down or at least fined for putting out such distorted rubbish, its one thing to have view and opinion but blatent lies and misinformation is a dereliction of responsibility and integrity its like the anti vaxxer carryon.

Strazdas · 27-08-2019 03:24PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Brexit heroes... Good lord. Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

It's like the press in an authoritarian dictatorship at this stage : state outlets pumping out propaganda praising the leadership.

Strazdas · 27-08-2019 03:26PM

Infini wrote: »

Rags like that should be shut down or at least fined for putting out such distorted rubbish, its one thing to have view and opinion but blatent lies and misinformation is a dereliction of responsibility and integrity its like the anti vaxxer carryon.

It resembles the German or Italian press circa 1934.

Professor Moriarty · 27-08-2019 03:29PM

Strazdas wrote: »

It's like the press in an authoritarian dictatorship at this stage : state outlets pumping out propaganda praising the leadership.

The corollary of Brexit Heroes is Remain Cowards.

Professor Moriarty · 27-08-2019 03:32PM

Mind you, two can play at that game:

Boris Johnson was described as a threat to the very nature of British democracy at a cross party meeting of MPs who signed a pledge to an alternative parliament in the event of the prime minister shutting down parliament to make a no deal Brexit happen.

In a highly symbolic gathering in Church House, where MPs met during the second world war, Labour’s John McDonnell took to the stage alongside the former Conservative MP, Anna Soubry, as well as the Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson and the Caroline Lucas of the Green Party.

Each one signed the ‘Church House Declaration,’ which declared that shutting down parliament would be “an undemocratic outrage at such a crucial moment for our country, and a historic constitutional crisis.”

Water John · 27-08-2019 03:35PM

Glad to hear of the positive meeting of opposition leaders. So that rules out an election prior to 31st as Lb won't bite IWT.
All efforts now on preventing Crash Out Brexit, in the national interest. I'm sure a good number of Tory MPs can buy into that.

Jizique · 27-08-2019 03:36PM

Malcolm Rifkind is worse
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1166319526000103424

"The Irish government in part are responsible for this mess" and are "very stupid" to insist on the backstop
A "solemn and binding assurance" based on technological solutions is enough even though "I'm not saying that can be done"

Water John · 27-08-2019 03:40PM

Reads as; I'm promising you unicorns, don't believe in them myself, but my promise should be good enough for you'.

Seth Brundle · 27-08-2019 03:42PM

Jizique wrote: »

Malcolm Rifkind is worse
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1166319526000103424

There are a great many "ifs" in his potential alternative! :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle · 27-08-2019 03:46PM

Meanwhile, the Dutch PM tells us how the EU27 will be happy to hear all about the UK's workable alternatives if and when Boris has them...

https://twitter.com/MinPres/status/1166300425256980480

bobmalooka · 27-08-2019 03:46PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There are a great many "ifs" in his potential alternative! :rolleyes:

Hilarious, his suggested solution to the backstop is......drumroll.....the backstop

Edit: while simultaneously being in a state of incredulity at the EU wanting the backstop

Sam Russell · 27-08-2019 03:48PM

Jizique wrote: »

Malcolm Rifkind is worse
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1166319526000103424

"The Irish government in part are responsible for this mess" and are "very stupid" to insist on the backstop
A "solemn and binding assurance" based on technological solutions is enough even though "I'm not saying that can be done"

They just do not get it!

It is not about trade. It is not about the Customs Union. It is about peace and it is about the Single Market.

A milk lorry going to collect milk on Nov 1st (after crash out) will not collect milk from NI as it did the day before as the milk will not be EU milk and will not meet the SM conditions - not because there is anything different from the day before except it is third country milk. No amount of technology, number plate recognition stuff changes that fact. No SM, no milk collections

NI must remain in the SM after Brexit or lots of everyday things cannot happen along the border, and quite a few things no-one wants will start happening.

Of course, if NI stays in the SM it might as well stay in the CU, and preferably in the EU VAT scheme.

As an aside, GBP is recovering from a month of Johnson as PM, returning towards 90p as it was as he became PM from a high of nearly 94p. In 2015 before all the Brexity stuff, it was 75p.

Call me Al · 27-08-2019 03:50PM

Jizique wrote: »

Malcolm Rifkind is worse
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1166319526000103424

"The Irish government in part are responsible for this mess" and are "very stupid" to insist on the backstop
A "solemn and binding assurance" based on technological solutions is enough even though "I'm not saying that can be done"

Surely his issue with ireland not being willing to time limit the backstop was addressed in the Political Declaration, which the UK negotiated signed and then failed to get through parliament...
We said ok to future-technology.
Bring it on.
Show us, and if it works we will remove the need for the backstop.
In the meantime though it stays, but you tell us there's technology so there should be no problem eh?

Leroy42 · 27-08-2019 03:52PM

So the plan still seems to be that if they threaten enough the EU will fold.

Seems that the media are fully behind the plan and that it is working.

However, from EUs POV what is the benefit of conceding? Sure No Deal is avoided but at the cost of the SM and even if they spin that they will have lost all credibility with any other trade negotiations starting with the UK itself.

With the added benefit that Johnson will have ultimately failed in his singular act.

declanflynn · 27-08-2019 03:57PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

road_high wrote: »

Who cares? Sometimes in life actions have consequences (voting for Brexit) and it's high time they felt a bit of it.

I'm unbothered by the fact that they're going to feel a bit of it. I'm seriously bothered by the fact that we're going to feel a bit of it.

Don't worry they will feel a bit more of it, its like this, u and your friend get a tip for a horse you usually don't gamble but for some unknown reason u have €100 on it, the horse looses and u feel sick, then ur friend says he put €1000(All his savings) on it because he owes a money lender €5k and taught dis horse would solve his problems, now you have forgotten ur loss and just want to get away from your friend because he is going to tap you for €6k.

PeadarCo · 27-08-2019 03:58PM

Call me Al wrote: »

Surely his issue with ireland not being willing to time limit the backstop was addressed in the Political Declaration, which the UK negotiated signed and then failed to get through parliament...
We said ok to future-technology.
Bring it on.
Show us, and if it works we will remove the need for the backstop.
In the meantime though it stays, but you tell us there's technology so there should be no problem eh?

Surely is that not the contradiction in a lot of the opposition to the backstop. A lot of opponents suggest technology as a solution. However if you really believe technology is a solution you should have no issue with the backstop as technology will render its use unnecessary.

prawnsambo · 27-08-2019 04:05PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Surely is that not the contradiction in a lot of the opposition to the backstop. A lot of opponents suggest technology as a solution. However if you really believe technology is a solution you should have no issue with the backstop as technology will render its use unnecessary.

Otherwise known as the unicorn paradox.

We have a unicorn farm. It will definitely produce unicorns in two year's time.
Great. We have an insurance policy that will fill the gap if your unicorn farm doesn't produce unicorns in two year's time.
But it will.
So you won't mind taking up the insurance then. It's free.
You're being unreasonable.

ancapailldorcha · 27-08-2019 04:08PM

I don't think Johnson is stupid enough to think that he can actually prorogue Parliament. Cummings might be sufficiently arrogant but the few consistent things that have shone through Johnson’s career as his concern for his own well-being and his legacy. Cummings comes across as wanting to take a sledgehammer to the entire Westminster edifice. I don’t think Johnson is a fool. Deeply flawed but not a fool. He knows that a no deal Brexit come Hallowe’en destroys both his party and the UK as a geopolitical union. I think he is trying to goat Parliament into giving him an out to request an extension so he can call a GE with his aim being to increase his majority. I can’t see the EU, especially Macron facilitating this for anything less.

On a more depressing note, I went to see my aunt over the weekend. It all went lovely until we had a barbeque yesterday. One her friends decided to moan about how terrible young people are because they won’t work two jobs, are lazy, addicted to their phones. Also included were lamentations that Brexit will somehow be stopped by Macron and the EU, America is booming because somewhere in New York, buildings are being constructed and something about non-white patients in hospitals having too many relatives in to visit. I probably should have expected this but they decided to shove their fingers in my face (literally). I’m not really sure what inspires such fervour. It seems like many people are paranoid about Brexit being surreptitiously sabotaged despite detailed and incessant media coverage of the SNP, Labour, Lib Dems and Greens.

I don’t really interact with too many older Brexiters. If it weren’t for my relatives, I wouldn’t interact with any. There seems to be so many rifts in British society that I’m not sure if it can be fixed never mind how one might go about starting to.

Call me Al · 27-08-2019 04:11PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Surely is that not the contradiction in a lot of the opposition to the backstop. A lot of opponents suggest technology as a solution. However if you really believe technology is a solution you should have no issue with the backstop as technology will render its use unnecessary.

Exactly.. But he's being given oxygen on Sky with this rant about the government without this contradiction being flushed out more thoroughly.

We here in ireland just need to take their "solemn guarantee" and trust them.
Because they've believe they've behaved so honourably throughout this whole process.

What a farce of a government they really are.

bobmalooka · 27-08-2019 04:11PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So the plan still seems to be that if they threaten enough the EU will fold.

Seems that the media are fully behind the plan and that it is working.

However, from EUs POV what is the benefit of conceding? Sure No Deal is avoided but at the cost of the SM and even if they spin that they will have lost all credibility with any other trade negotiations starting with the UK itself.

With the added benefit that Johnson will have ultimately failed in his singular act.

It’s the point that is missed time and time again in brexit land

- what is the cost to the EU in agreeing to the (perhaps unfinalised) list of UK demands?

It is not just monetary, it is not just egg on face, it is existential.
A dismantling of the SM to (attempt to) appease the fringe element of an increasingly hostile, soon to be former member.

It is an exponentially worse outcome for the EU than any threats or loss of trade.

For that reason alone, talk of blinking and backdowns and stupid Irish government is laughable.

I refuse to believe that Whitehall don’t understand this already - but don’t see how current posturing gives them the space to actually achieve anything.

prawnsambo · 27-08-2019 04:14PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don’t really interact with too many older Brexiters. If it weren’t for my relatives, I wouldn’t interact with any. There seems to be so many rifts in British society that I’m not sure if it can be fixed never mind how one might go about starting to.

In my saner moments I often think a good cold, hard brexit would go a long way. Nothing like your face being pushed up against reality to make you rethink some life choices.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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