Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Forty Seven · 25-08-2019 12:00PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

I had a 'day off' from this crap and am catching up on posts. Your 'efforts' have been a bit lacking I must say. That you are giving up already and blaming the posters here for that is basically Brexit in a nut shell.

Start posting all guts and glory, receive a contrary view in return, and then give up and retreat. I'm sure you are 'more convinced than ever that Britiain must leave the EU'. It's quite pathetic.

If you are genuine in your want to debate the issues, there is a place for you here.

RE the Guardian, that poster Firemansam4 is clearly incorrect and under the wrong impression. That is not the majority view.

As you can see, there are post after post directly engaging me within minutes of a post. This is not viable. I came back to quell a few snipes as I'm waiting for my grass to dry.

It might help if everyone here didn't assume I am a leaver just because I don't like unfettered immigration. When Limerick looks like Bradford I'm sure the Irish viewpoint will be the same. I can be a remainer and not be for open borders.

There are plenty stuck in various central positions of this argument. It's not all us v them as it is made out to be here. It would be much simpler if it was truly polarised, the truth is that this is incredibly nuanced.

VinLieger · 25-08-2019 12:02PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

I won't capaign in a campaign that is over. The leavers won a fair and square referendum. That's democracy, you can't change the mandate because it doesn't suit the few. That's just not cricket.

It was neither fair nor square, if you put 10 people who voted leave into a room and asked them what leave meant to them you would get 10 completely different answers, that is not a square referendum and it does not give a mandate for anything, especially so with the no deal option.

And im not gonna even start on how much evidence there is to prove that multiple people on the leave side cheated and lied.

ilovesmybrick · 25-08-2019 12:05PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

It might help if everyone here didn't assume I am a leaver just because I don't like unfettered immigration. When Limerick looks like Bradford I'm sure the Irish viewpoint will be the same. I can be a remainer and not be for open borders.

17.3% of the population of Ireland are foreign born, compared to 14% in the UK. In general the immigration into the country has been seen as a good thing. Or are you referring to a particular immigrant community?

VinLieger · 25-08-2019 12:06PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

It might help if everyone here didn't assume I am a leaver just because I don't like unfettered immigration. When Limerick looks like Bradford I'm sure the Irish viewpoint will be the same. I can be a remainer and not be for open borders.

Bradford is the way it is due to non eu immigration it has nothing to do with the EU and deffinitely will not suddenly change after October 31st.

fash · 25-08-2019 12:07PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

It might help if everyone here didn't assume I am a leaver just because I don't like unfettered immigration. When Limerick looks like Bradford I'm sure the Irish viewpoint will be the same. I can be a remainer and not be for open borders.

Bradford isn't filled with EU citizens - it is filled with migrants over whom the UK had absolute discretion.
Furthermore if you want to prioritize migration of people who roughly share a cultural viewpoint that "perhaps blowing up as many children as possible at a concert is not moral" and who are quite likely to return home when they finish working - I would suggest that ending EU freedom of movement was a bad idea.

CelticRambler · 25-08-2019 12:07PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

There is no solution, like remain and leave the positions are too entrenched and anyone offering a central viewpoint is crowded out by both sides. Hence the Brexit fatigue.

There is one solution: revoke Art.50 and start again, this time with the benefit of knowing all the implications (and the inherent contradictions arising from May's red lines).

Failing that, well you're just going to have to learn to live with the fatigue, because Brexit-Day is the official start of the process, not the end. A solution must be found, because the United Kingdom cannot continue to exist in its current form without a workable solution.

I'll try once more to get you to answer a straight question: as a self-declared unionist and Remain voter, do you think that the break-up of the United Kingdom is a fair price to pay for getting over "Brexit fatigue"?

First Up · 25-08-2019 12:10PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

NGOs are well documented transporting African economic migrants to the EU. What is your issue with this exactly?

Your inability to grasp that the UK's EU membership does not in any way oblige it to admit them.

Forty Seven · 25-08-2019 12:14PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

There is one solution: revoke Art.50 and start again, this time with the benefit of knowing all the implications (and the inherent contradictions arising from May's red lines).

Failing that, well you're just going to have to learn to live with the fatigue, because Brexit-Day is the official start of the process, not the end. A solution must be found, because the United Kingdom cannot continue to exist in its current form without a workable solution.

I'll try once more to get you to answer a straight question: as a self-declared unionist and Remain voter, do you think that the break-up of the United Kingdom is a fair price to pay for getting over "Brexit fatigue"?

I will say it again, I have no say but my vote. I am clearly in a minority, I expect to be so again in the Indi ref after brexit. I can't revoke art 50, I can't change the minds of politicians. My MP is a Scottish Nationalist and an absolute clown. I have discussed many things with him, he is of one policy only and lazy to boot.

I will have to deal with being a Scot in a tiny insignificant country if the majority vote for that or is it now acceptable to defy a majority in a democratic vote?

reslfj · 25-08-2019 12:17PM

Enzokk wrote: »

....

But that one had been rejected, right? So the EU gave them a new deal on different terms, which the government then had to back.

This will almost certainly happen for the UK too, if/when it crashes out in a 'No Deal' Brexit.
The WA text - without the for the UK good stuff e.g. transition periods - will have to be ratified by the UK before any other negotiations can begin. But it's very likely that the EU27 will demand many more 'hard' concessions from the UK before any real trade talks will be scheduled - e.g. global taxation transparency, minimum taxation levels and other tax areas, climate and environmental standards, human rights, labour rights and production environment standards....

The EU is not an inexpensive place to shop deals and its prices may well get a bit extra, if the buyer (here the UK) is close to the EU and/or has little or no alternative choices.

The US is not in any foreseeable future a realistic alternative market for the close to 50% of the UK export now going to EU27 countries.

Enzokk wrote: »

Greece had to face the consequences of the economic policies that got them into the position they found themselves.

Austerity itself is not bad, its not getting yourself out of it and continuing it as the UK seems to do that causes more headaches.

Long term you can't use more than the country produces and this is what hit Greece. They voted for governments - left or right - that borrowed in order the use much more money than was available.
Corruption, nepotism, tax evasion, very early retirement, over spending (e.g. the Olympics) and simply lots of too little and too bad governance....

Greece debt had a 53% haircut in the 2010-13 time frame and the rest is what the Greek population now are suffering to pay even at a much reduced interest rate and over many more years.
Greek debt will likely get another haircut when corruption, nepotism and tax evasion are more effectively prevented and good Greek governance is continued - I think.

The UK had (has?) a financial sector very willing to take high risks in the hope of higher profits. This forced the UK to bail out more institutions around the financial crisis (Northern Rock, RBS ...) and help others with large sums - directly and indirectly.

Austerity was somewhat needed in the 2008-2012 time frame, but using austerity to avoid higher taxes or worse directly reducing taxes is to me nothing but being overly nice and sweet to the more wealthy people.

Lars

Forty Seven · 25-08-2019 12:23PM

First Up wrote: »

Your inability to grasp that the UK's EU membership does not in any way oblige it to admit them.

Many end up camped in Calais and are now boating across the channel. Given the EUs reluctance to stop the influx on their shores I can fully understand why people would vote to leave the bloc and strengthen the border checks.

That might not be what happens but it is what people want and what they voted for.

To all the other immigration posts. Yes, I don't like third world migration. It is degrading our society and integration is not happening. No, I do not expect this to change due to brexit.

Brexit was a protest vote. It is a warning of severe dissastisfaction with our country and its leadership. It is because of immigration, nothing else. Understand this and then you can start looking for solutions europe wide. Nobody wants to leave to be poorer, nobody wants to leave to start a war. This is just a symptom of an underlying problem which has been exacerbated by Merkel opening her arms to a massive wave of third world economic migrants. It was never going to end well.

People are shooting themselves in the foot to make a point.

Dyr · 25-08-2019 12:25PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

We also buy the things they want to sell. As the worlds 5th largest economy we still have our uses to the outside world.

That was before Brexit, 7th largest economy in the world now, just ahead of Italy last time I checked

Forty Seven · 25-08-2019 12:31PM

Bambi wrote: »

That was before Brexit, 7th largest economy in the world now, just ahead of Italy last time I checked

Out of 195? Still a major global player.

serfboard · 25-08-2019 12:33PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

NGOs are well documented transporting African economic migrants to the EU.

You left out the bit about George Soros paying for it all ...

J Mysterio · 25-08-2019 12:35PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Bradford is the way it is due to non eu immigration it has nothing to do with the EU and deffinitely will not suddenly change after October 31st.

This is it.

There is undeniably a problem of integration in the UK, but it is not the fault of the EU. The EU is the scapegoat for immigration, as it is for many of the other big issues in UK politics.

This is the fault of successive UK governments who have not managed immigration properly and have allowed 'ghettoisation' to develop. It is an internal UK issue.

As has been pointed out, non intra EU immigration is and has been within the 'competency' of the UK governement. That's pretty simplistic really, but it seems the average man on the street does not get it. Brexiteer propogandists pushed this line and many fell for it, unquestioningly.

[Img]https://res.cloudinary.com/dods/image/upload/c_fill,g_center,h_500,w_1120/v1/UK politicians/pa-26625464_nbxweh.jpg[/img]

There was also the big lie RE Turkey.

Forty Seven · 25-08-2019 12:40PM

serfboard wrote: »

You left out the bit about George Soros paying for it all ...

He doesn't fund the ships directly but does fund the umbrella groups that facilitate and fund them. The open society foundation is well documented and easily researched.

Your point is?

Forty Seven · 25-08-2019 12:46PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

This is it.

There is undeniably a problem of integration in the UK, but it is not the fault of the EU. The EU is the scapegoat for immigration, as it is for many of the other big issues in UK politics.

This is the fault of successive UK governments who have not managed immigration properly and have allowed 'ghettoisation' to develop. It is an internal UK issue.

As has been pointed out, non intra EU immigration is and has been within the 'competency' of the UK governement. That's pretty simplistic really, but it seems the average man on the street does not get it. Brexiteer propogandists pushed this line and many fell for it, unquestioningly.

There was also the big lie RE Turkey.

Completely agree. The average voter is not getting it but the issue is an open wound that resulted in brexit.

If immigration had been dealt with this would not have resulted but Merkel opening her arms in 2015 was the straw that broke the camels back. There was no way the wave of migration could be contained in Germany (as Ireland will find to its cost in the coming years) and so the UK people pulled the plug.

The fact that they were wrong and misinformed changes nothing.

looksee · 25-08-2019 12:48PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Many end up camped in Calais and are now boating across the channel. Given the EUs reluctance to stop the influx on their shores I can fully understand why people would vote to leave the bloc and strengthen the border checks.

That might not be what happens but it is what people want and what they voted for.

To all the other immigration posts. Yes, I don't like third world migration. It is degrading our society and integration is not happening. No, I do not expect this to change due to brexit.

Brexit was a protest vote. It is a warning of severe dissastisfaction with our country and its leadership. It is because of immigration, nothing else. Understand this and then you can start looking for solutions europe wide. Nobody wants to leave to be poorer, nobody wants to leave to start a war. This is just a symptom of an underlying problem which has been exacerbated by Merkel opening her arms to a massive wave of third world economic migrants. It was never going to end well.

People are shooting themselves in the foot to make a point.

Yes it was a protest vote, very few would dispute that. But is the alternative to being on a football team to stamp your foot and say 'I don't like the ref' and leave the team? Its also called 'biting off your nose to spite your face'. It really is not a solution to anything.

Just because you claim the referendum was fair and square does not make it so - Ireland does referenda, we know how they need to be run, and it was never claimed that the referendum was anything other than advisory, the population could afford to use it to protest, it didn't matter. That was bad judgment, but to cut off a leg because you broke a toenail makes no sense at all.

Meanwhile you can't have it both ways, be a remainer yet argue to leave. Claiming a middle line is feasible is nonsense, you are in the EU or you are out. To go out on a wave of accusations, arrogance and ascribing blame is really burning your boats.

I could possibly have got more metaphores into this, but I didn't want to overdo it

Enzokk · 25-08-2019 12:51PM

Remember how the leak about Operation Yellowhammer was only the worst case scenario and how it was an old document?

https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1165567876440498177?s=20

So it is the base case scenario and not the worst case, and it was dated August 2019 so the leak was not done by one of the previous ministers as Johnson said.

What has happened to the UK? Why is it allowed or feasible that the government is allowed to spin such lies without any pause or even thought? I shudder to think what will happen if Johnson wins a election, with the right wing cabinet he has installed.

woohoo!!! · 25-08-2019 12:52PM

The EU is a handy scape goat, across many EU countries. There was no shortage of critical of the EU here during the throes of the recession. Governments in Poland, Italy and Hungary for example are very adept at blaming the EU as a means to keep their domestic support.

The UK has been doing it for longer. Bring up an issue, whether contriversial or not and blame the EU features heavily. So we have hard core Brexiteers, some wanting a deal, a strong element of reluctant remainers and a small rump of committed remainers. The common theme across the majority is a lack of understanding of what the EU is or isn't, its parliament, single market, customs union and So on. Right across the EU28. The most fundamental point is the bulk of power remains with the 28 PMs and governments. And the only way to get business done are common rules, otherwise the whole thing would have fallen apart ages ago.

The EU needs to consistently and constantly explain itself and in a concise manner. Before brexit I had little clue what it meant bar this fuzzy feeling of Ireland has done well out of it. In the UK, this fuzzy feeling runs the other way, and has been manipulated to outright hostility.

The UK must leave. The UK needs to take the time to sort itself out and my two cents worth is start of getting rid of FPTP. Getting to a sustainable post Brexit deal is going to be unpleasant for both of our islands and the hold me back merchants are going to be shouting loudly. An utter mess brought about by Tory infighting.

fash · 25-08-2019 12:53PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Many end up camped in Calais and are now boating across the channel. Given the EUs reluctance to stop the influx on their shores I can fully understand why people would vote to leave the bloc and strengthen the border checks. .

The EU is "reluctant" because the EU has no authority in this matter - it is entirely a matter for individual states. The EU is similarly "reluctant" to stop that black hole swallowing a neutron star 900 million light years away (and 900 million years in the past) recently discovered. What you seem to be suggesting is that the power should be taken away from individual states and given to the EU.

.

That might not be what happens but it is what people want and what they voted for.

To all the other immigration posts. Yes, I don't like third world migration. It is degrading our society and integration is not happening. No, I do not expect this to change due to brexit.

Brexit was a protest vote. It is a warning of severe dissastisfaction with our country and its leadership. It is because of immigration, nothing else. Understand this and then you can start looking for solutions europe wide. Nobody wants to leave to be poorer, nobody wants to leave to start a war. This is just a symptom of an underlying problem which has been exacerbated by Merkel opening her arms to a massive wave of third world economic migrants. It was never going to end well.

People are shooting themselves in the foot to make a point.

Just so long as you are clear that Brexit will make all of that much much worse - since "foreign" migration from places where people will come and stay forever will increase post Brexit. Plus who knows, if no deal is bad, the UK may end up becoming the Papua New Guinea to the EU's Australia -the place to dump illegal migrants in order to discourage other illegal migrants.

fash · 25-08-2019 12:57PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Out of 195? Still a major global player.

I suppose that depends on how you see things - I am sure that if Italy decided to "go it alone" to "reestablish the Renaissance spirit of Florence, Venice and Genoa", the UK would be the first to smile in amusement.

Call me Al · 25-08-2019 12:57PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Remember how the leak about Operation Yellowhammer was only the worst case scenario and how it was an old document?

https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1165567876440498177?s=20

So it is the base case scenario and not the worst case, and it was dated August 2019 so the leak was not done by one of the previous ministers as Johnson said.

What has happened to the UK? Why is it allowed or feasible that the government is allowed to spin such lies without any pause or even thought? I shudder to think what will happen if Johnson wins a election, with the right wing cabinet he has installed.

Philip Hammond tweeted a photo of a letter he has sent to UK PM criticising him for the accusations against former ministers for leaking the original report.

J Mysterio · 25-08-2019 01:00PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Completely agree. The average voter is not getting it but the issue is an open wound that resulted in brexit.

If immigration had been dealt with this would not have resulted but Merkel opening her arms in 2015 was the straw that broke the camels back. There was no way the wave of migration could be contained in Germany (as Ireland will find to its cost in the coming years) and so the UK people pulled the plug.

The fact that they were wrong and misinformed changes nothing.

This is an issue for Germany. The great many that Merkel accepted to Germany have stayed in Germany. Depending on the way you look at it, this is a humanitarian gesture, or a way of bolstering the workforce in a country with a plummeting birth rate.

These people are not free to travel across the EU, they have refugee status in DE.

I sincerely question how many leave voters are au fait with the story at all.

25-08-2019 01:01PM

serfboard wrote: »

You left out the bit about George Soros paying for it all ...

Yes, It's in the interests of the elite to ensure growth is maintained at all costs, even if that means importing people up to and beyond the point that it causes civil unrest. Brexit has become a bit of a safety valve for that built up anger.

But that growth must be maintained to ensure the perpetually growing debt is repaid with interest and "we" (the elite) get our share of the profits.

woohoo!!! · 25-08-2019 01:05PM

So for example as I was alluding to in my above post, explaining how the EU works.

https://twitter.com/Europarl_EN/status/1165552393666408450?s=19

25-08-2019 01:08PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

This is it.

There is undeniably a problem of integration in the UK, but it is not the fault of the EU. The EU is the scapegoat for immigration, as it is for many of the other big issues in UK politics.

This is the fault of successive UK governments who have not managed immigration properly and have allowed 'ghettoisation' to develop. It is an internal UK issue.

Ghettoisation, is an issue in all countries when the migrant population gets above a certain level, just look to all of the cities in the UK and EU that have districts where a particular ethnic group have caused a "whiter flight" to occur and to be replaced by a "little India( or whatever group)".
Some of these groups can be quite troublesome to the neighbouring communities or can be almost invisible like the "Chinatowns" where they have almost established a country within a country while avoiding conflict.

Enzokk · 25-08-2019 01:17PM

Call me Al wrote: »

Philip Hammond tweeted a photo of a letter he has sent to UK PM criticising him for the accusations against former ministers for leaking the original report.

Here is the Phil Hammond tweet.

https://twitter.com/PhilipHammondUK/status/1165539601680916480?s=20

Beth Rigby did an interview with Johnson, the million to one chance for no-deal has disappeared it seems.

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1165577320184385537?s=20

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1165578907682254848?s=20

So a couple of things, one is that he says food shortages are unlikely. That is not ruling it out and seems to me he knows what will happen. Also, as seen in the last tweet, he will not take responsibility for his own actions. It is only the UK that will make no-deal happen and avert it. The EU has done its part to avert it.

cryptocurrency · 25-08-2019 01:23PM

You could see in Tusks face yesterday that he was beat. It’s all a face saving exercise now so they need to plot how they can paint this compromise on the WA without it looking like they completely folded. Boris bypassing the EU and going straight to Macron and Merkel just shown the EU up as fairly powerless compared to national leaders when it comes down to it. You can’t help but feel this is going to go down as a pivotal moment in the end of the EU as we know it.

54and56 · 25-08-2019 01:26PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

Pure baseless conjecture.

I know it's hard for Brexiteers to get their head around but the EU won't be shafting Ireland because unlike the UK they understand the benefit of solidarity and Ireland won't be agreeing to any deal which doesn't contain the backstop as we place a higher value on protecting the GFA than facilitating a Brexit which would threaten it.

Brexit is 100% a British decision. If it chooses no deal over the deal it's government negotiated and agreed it will own the resulting chaos.

Lemming · 25-08-2019 01:27PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

It might help if everyone here didn't assume I am a leaver just because I don't like unfettered immigration. When Limerick looks like Bradford I'm sure the Irish viewpoint will be the same. I can be a remainer and not be for open borders.

I appreciate that I am a few pages back playing catch-up, but I've seen this sentiment before - not from yourself per se - and the places cited, usually Bradford and Birmingham (i.e. large Asian/Muslim communities), are not EU migration issues; they are rest-of-world migration issues of which the British government has always had direct control over, EU be damned.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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