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Discussion on Testing & Verification of an installation

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  • 14-07-2019 5:58pm
    #1
    katie275
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭


    Mod note:
    Thread split out from here.


«1

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    #2
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    As I said, I wouldn't be particularly worried in this instance.
    I would. It is non-compliant with the National Wiring Rules and hence the installation is uncertifiable like that. Diagonal tracks with concealed twin and skin outside of earthed containment is not a legitimate wiring method.

    Of course doing things properly can be dearer, but those who abide by the Wiring Rules shouldn't be penalised for someone doing cheaper non-compliant work. There is, of course, also the safety aspect which is the reason for the Rule existing.


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    #3
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    I'm not sure where your reply has gone to 2011, but the simple fact is that it is not permissible to certify non-compliant work. A Completion Certificate is certifying that the work is compliant with ET101, so certainly certification should only be for fully compliant electrical installation work.

    Indeed RECI would insist on non-compliances being rectified.


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    #4
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I'm not sure where your reply has gone to 2011

    I think we are both in danger of derailing the thread. You have expressed your view and I have expressed mine.
    but the simple fact is that it is not permissible to certify non-compliant work.

    Yet it happens.
    A Completion Certificate is certifying that the work is compliant with ET101, so certainly certification should only be for fully compliant electrical installation work.

    I agree, but in the real world this is not always the case.


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    #5
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Indeed RECI would insist on non-compliances being rectified.

    Yes. But contractors are purely interested in money. So wiring a house is completed as fast as possible. Not always by the rec personally, but by under pressure non rec employees. You think they use laser lines to put switch drops etc in? So this perfect system you imagine, is fantasy stuff.

    I doubt RECI will disassemble the house.


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    #6
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    olestoepoke wrote: »
    Not possibly it was a non-sensical post

    If you think that was safe to stand on just from a photo, before it was drilled, that is nonsense indeed.

    Sent ye a few pointers on the heat genie install setup there. Hopefully that does make sense. Any questions, fire away.


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    #7
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »
    I agree, but in the real world this is not always the case.

    Yes, there is no practical way to prove an installation is actually perfectly installed. Testing does`t show non vertical drops, or hidden connectors, or damaged cables in many cases etc.


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    #8
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Yes, there is no practical way to prove an installation is actually perfectly installed. Testing does`t show non vertical drops, or hidden connectors, or damaged cables in many cases etc.

    That is precisely why inspection is more important than testing. Testing merely supplements the inspection. It is why the process is known as inspection and testing, and not testing and inspection.


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    #9
    Jaklmex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭Jaklmex


    Testing and inspection has a nice ring to it

    Maybe they should change it


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    #10
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    That is precisely why inspection is more important than testing.

    I agree with you that both inspection and testing are very important.
    However the point you seem to be missing is that no amount of inspection and testing can guarantee 100% compliance with the regulations in every case. For example some issues can be embedded in concrete, or plaster.

    Like it or not the fact is many homes out there that have been certified despite having chases that are not perfectly vertical :)
    I can assure you that if you ask any experienced electrician they will tell you that a great many certified installations deviate from the regulations to some extent (in fact some are dangerous). I have carried out many inspections myself and have seen this first hand.


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    #11
    Jaklmex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭Jaklmex


    Installations could be inspected at different phases

    Wouldn't be hard to implement and flag breaches of wiring rules during construction


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    #12
    kramer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    Basically , we need real building control and inspection at multiple points of the job , self certification is nonsense . I say this as a RECI registered contractor. Take it out of our hands , we ll pass the cost on to the client and we can all stop talking ****e.


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    #13
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Jaklmex wrote: »
    Installations could be inspected at different phases

    This is exactly what is done all across the country on many industrial installations.
    Wouldn't be hard to implement and flag breaches of wiring rules during construction

    That depends on a number of factors, but mainly the cost complexity of the installation and the budget.


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    #14
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    That is precisely why inspection is more important than testing. Testing merely supplements the inspection. It is why the process is known as inspection and testing, and not testing and inspection.

    If someone gives you jelly and ice cream, does that mean you can't touch the ice cream until the jelly is gone?


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    #15
    Drifter50
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Drifter50


    kramer1 wrote: »
    Basically , we need real building control and inspection at multiple points of the job , self certification is nonsense . I say this as a RECI registered contractor. Take it out of our hands , we ll pass the cost on to the client and we can all stop talking ****e.

    Ha, very good, I like that. I have a PSA licence and I`m sick to death of "customers" looking for something done for nothing. Did a quote on Friday, gave the lad the price and then he says can we do it for cash.
    I said no, its got to be certified. Then he says to me " Oh, you`re straight are you" WTF..............


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    #16
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    olestoepoke wrote: »
    What were they thinking when they installed that light in the closet? Is that an exterior waterproof light? Those wires exposed like that can't be safe.

    If it’s in a room with a hot water tank, the lights have to be steamproof apparently. Hot press lights in new builds all seem to be these outdoor lights


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    #17
    Gashmuncher
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Gashmuncher


    2011 wrote: »
    I agree with you that both inspection and testing are very important.
    However the point you seem to be missing is that no amount of inspection and testing can guarantee 100% compliance with the regulations in every case. For example some issues can be embedded in concrete, or plaster.

    Like it or not the fact is many homes out there that have been certified despite having chases that are not perfectly vertical :)
    I can assure you that if you ask any experienced electrician they will tell you that a great many certified installations deviate from the regulations to some extent (in fact some are dangerous). I have carried out many inspections myself and have seen this first hand.

    There is a fundamental misunderstanding from this poster regarding the purpose of testing. The tests required in Part 6 of the wiring rules are in place (not just in Ireland but all over the world) to highlight potential safety issues within the electrical installation which will easily go unnoticed by both the installing electrician and the end user, The tests are not intended to verify the installation complies with the wiring rules.

    Example - Test 1 Verify continuity of Protective Conductors (Earths)
    An electrical circuit will work perfectly well and will appear to be entirely normal with a disconnected earth conductor. Only by carrying out the required test will a potential issue be highlighted.

    There is a similar logic behind each of the required tests. An installation which does not comply with many of the wiring rules could test perfectly well, this simply confirms there are no underlying electrical issues which will potentially start a fire or electrocute the end user. As apposed to that an installation which appears to comply fully with all the wiring rules could have issues which are extremely dangerous.

    Example - Neutral to earth short on lighting circuit will be picked up by an Insulation Resistance test. The circuit will work perfectly well with the fault in place but could start a fire if a secondary fault causes high currents to flow through the 1.5 lighting neutral.


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    #18
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    .

    Example - Test 1 Verify continuity of Protective Conductors (Earths)
    An electrical circuit will work perfectly well and will appear to be entirely normal with a disconnected earth conductor. Only by carrying out the required test will a potential issue be highlighted.

    What test verifies the earth conductor is connected properly?


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    #19
    Gashmuncher
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Gashmuncher


    Part 6 of ET 101 2008 4th edition

    The following tests shall be carried out where applicable.

    Verify contuinity of Protecrive and bonding conductors rule 613.2.1

    Quote from the rules
    " to verify that protective and bonding conductors are electricaly sound and correctly connected"


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    #20
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    Part 6 of ET 101 2008 4th edition

    The following tests shall be carried out where applicable.

    Verify contuinity of Protecrive and bonding conductors rule 613.2.1

    Quote from the rules
    " to verify that protective and bonding conductors are electricaly sound and correctly connected"

    Verifying continuity doesn't verify a sound protective conductor. And it's not impossible for hidden connectors to be used somewhere on a circuit. So, the continuity and inspection is not a guarantee. You can only do tests to a practicable level, not to a 100% guarantee level.


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    #21
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    The tests are not intended to verify the installation complies with the wiring rules.

    Interesting.....
    I would argue that testing is primarily used to identify where an installation deviates from the rules.
    But don't take my word for it, look at the very first section of part 6 from the National Rules for Electrical installations:
    611 General

    611.1

    Every installation, including subsequent extensions and additions, shall be inspected and tested during erection as far as is reasonably practicable, and on completion, inspected and tested before being put into service by the user so as to verify as far as is practicable that the requirements of these Rules have been fulfilled.


    Edit: Maybe I have misinterpreted your post. My point is that testing and inspection although are important can not be identify every possible deviation from the rules. There is a limit to what can reasonably achieved.


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    #22
    Gashmuncher
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Gashmuncher


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Verifying continuity doesn't verify a sound protective conductor. And it's not impossible for hidden connectors to be used somewhere on a circuit. So, the continuity and inspection is not a guarantee.

    Cable has fixed resistance which is directly Proportanal to the cable size and its length. A competent tester (thin on the ground in Ireland) will pick up on a bad connection. A good connection is no problem and won't change the expected resistance.

    Check out page 6 here
    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/Sept-2018-Newsletter.pdf


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    #23
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »
    The very first section of part 6 from the National Rules for Electrical installations conflicts with your view:



    Perhaps you have a "fundamental misunderstanding", not me :)

    Seems to be a serious misunderstanding there alright. Everyone knows a circuit with no protective earth will work fine. Yet they post it like it's a revelation of what the tests are really for.


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    #24
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    Cable has fixed resistance which is directly Proportanal to the cable size and its length. A competent tester (thin on the ground in Ireland) will pick up on a bad connection. A good connection is no problem and won't change the expected resistance.

    Check out page 6 here
    https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/Sept-2018-Newsletter.pdf

    A single connection just touching won't show any real resistance. Try it and see. Showing cable lengths and resistances is meaningless. Get 100 meters of 1.5t and e. Touch brown and blue together at far end. Test. Now put In connector and test. What will they show? Try it.

    The 100 meter cable will have its resistance. The touching copper ends on it will be very low resistance compared to the resistance of the cable. The resistance of the touching ends will be minimally different from the ends being in a connector. Once you start mentioning resistance tables on cable lengths, that suggests you have not tried this out.

    A barely touching connection may show. But decent contact but not well connected will show as a pass in many cases.


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    #25
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    Cable has fixed resistance which is directly Proportanal to the cable size and its length.

    Fixed?
    Would the resistance of a cable vary with temperature?
    I think you will find that it does. Not only that but the principle of a conductor changing resistance with temperature is commonly exploited (google resistance thermometer).

    If a cable was sized correctly for installation in a conduit but under sized for being directly embedded in insulation is there a test that would identify the method of installation?
    A competent tester (thin on the ground in Ireland) will pick up on a bad connection.

    Do you think that a competent tester can detect any join on a cable that would not comply with the regulations?
    What would you define a "bad connection" as?
    Would that just be a connection that is of higher resistance that would be desirable?
    Or is it more complicated than that?

    I am sure that I could join two conductors together in a way that would provide suitably low resistance but would still be completely unacceptable for mains voltage in an installation.
    A good connection is no problem and won't change the expected resistance.

    So are you stating that a good connection has no resistance what so ever? Or a good connection has low resistance and a bad connection has high resistance?


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    #26
    Gashmuncher
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Gashmuncher


    I am not particularly interested in getting into a tit for tat conversation here.
    You are all entitled to your opinions and I am confident in my knowledge
    But here goes and using your favourite breaking down the post and answering each point method


    Quote:
    Would the resistance of a cable vary with temperature?
    I think you will find that it does. Not only that but the principle of a conductor changing resistance with temperature is commonly exploited (google resistance thermometer)

    It will, but not enough to be detected by electricians testers which only read to two signifigent digits i.e. down to .01 of an ohm.

    If a cable was sized correctly for installation in a conduit but under sized for being directly embedded in insulation is there a test that would identify the method of installation?

    No


    Quote:
    A competent tester (thin on the ground in Ireland) will pick up on a bad connection.
    Do you think that a competent tester can detect any join on a cable that would not comply with the regulations?


    Yes, the only join on a cable which does not comply is a bad joint. There is no regulation which prohibits a good join on a cable. A good tester will identify a bad (high resistance) connection.
    Can you quote the regulation which prohibits a good joint on a cable


    What would you define a "bad connection" as?
    Would that just be a connection that is of higher resistance that would be desirable?
    Or is it more complicated than that?

    Yes higher resistance but not desirable and it's not more complicated

    I am sure that I could join two conductors together in a way that would provide suitably low resistance but would still be completely unacceptable for mains voltage in an installation.

    Not correct, once again there is no rule which prohibits a good joint in conductors. Any good low resistance connection is always acceptable


    Quote:
    A good connection is no problem and won't change the expected resistance.
    So are you stating that a good connection has no resistance what so ever?

    It has resistance, but not enough to be picked up by a test meter which only reads to two significant digits.


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    #27
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Gashmuncher wrote: »
    ]

    Not correct, once again there is no rule which prohibits a good joint in conductors. Any good low resistance connection is always acceptable
    Well as I said, two conductors held together can be a low resistance connection. If it could not, how would switches etc work.

    I would have to agree with 2011. It would be easy to create a low resistance link that is not acceptable as a protective conductor connection. I'm surprised you disagree that such a scenario is possible.
    A good tester will identify a bad (high resistance) connection.
    What value would typically be a high resistance value?


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    #28
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    I agree with you that both inspection and testing are very important.
    However the point you seem to be missing is that no amount of inspection and testing can guarantee 100% compliance with the regulations in every case. For example some issues can be embedded in concrete, or plaster.

    Like it or not the fact is many homes out there that have been certified despite having chases that are not perfectly vertical :)
    I can assure you that if you ask any experienced electrician they will tell you that a great many certified installations deviate from the regulations to some extent (in fact some are dangerous). I have carried out many inspections myself and have seen this first hand.

    Verification is required during erection and on completion. So the installer certainly is in a position to inspect throughout the job.

    I never suggested that periodic inspection could find all issues - that is why Periodic Inspection Reports are not certificates but reports. To suggest I claimed otherwise is false.


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    #29
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Verification is required during erection and on completion. So the installer certainly is in a position to inspect throughout the job.

    Will the installer find one of his own non vertical switch drops, and rectify it upon discovery, after somehow forgetting about his little breach?


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    #30
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    katie275 wrote: »
    .................

    When I challenged him about the horizontal chase he said it was because he had to chase that way after performing a metal detection test, still not convinced on that one but it’s done now
    ............

    katie275 wrote: »
    .................

    after performing a metal detection test,

    That'd be the metal telephone socket just above it ?

    :p

    Did he put "Metal Detection Test" on the invoice ?

    One way was remove to the phone socket & its wiring and run the conduit for light switch up in a straightish line vertically like a civilised human


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    #31
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Verification is required during erection and on completion. So the installer certainly is in a position to inspect throughout the job.

    Agreed and never disputed.
    The point that I and others are making is that a REC is inspecting his own work which is nonsense. This is why so many rules are routinely ignored.
    I never suggested that periodic inspection could find all issues - that is why Periodic Inspection Reports are not certificates but reports. To suggest I claimed otherwise is false.

    Agreed.
    What I am suggesting is that when you stated that a house with a diagonal chase was uncertifiable is balderdash.

    The point that we are fundamentally disagreeing that you will not engage on is:
    1) Self certification is a nonsense
    2) Many installations that are not compliant with the rules are certified.


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