Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

depaor01 · 12-07-2019 11:34PM

So a quick summary.

Ana was young, beautiful and violently and horrendously murdered. The guilty are about to be sentenced.

I think that's where we are now.

Dave

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 07:26AM

I don’t expect the sentencing to go ahead on the 15. The judge expressed interest in interviewing the parents of the two boys.
He’ll get a feeling about their background from that which will help him to make appropriate deductions.

sullzz · 13-07-2019 08:04AM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t expect the sentencing to go ahead on the 15. The judge expressed interest in interviewing the parents of the two boys.
He’ll get a feeling about their background from that which will help him to make appropriate deductions.

That is what's worrying, evil can come from a good or bad background.
Let's hope the Judge makes the correct call and hands them both a lengthy sentence.

iamwhoiam · 13-07-2019 08:10AM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t expect the sentencing to go ahead on the 15. The judge expressed interest in interviewing the parents of the two boys.
He’ll get a feeling about their background from that which will help him to make appropriate deductions.

There is nothing to prevent the parents from lying though ? That would worry me a little

Hannibal_Smith · 13-07-2019 09:53AM

I think the judge has been really careful and methodical throughout the trial. I respect the fact that he's taking such consideration before sentencing.

branie2 · 13-07-2019 09:55AM

When will the sentencing be?

Suckit · 13-07-2019 10:03AM

branie2 wrote: »

When will the sentencing be?

Due to be on Monday.

branie2 · 13-07-2019 10:53AM

Thanks

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 11:22AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There is nothing to prevent the parents from lying though ? That would worry me a little

I don’t think he’s seeking assurances or promises or anything like that. I think he wants to speak to them to get a “feeling” about the boys home life, upbringing etc
so he can understand more what brought them to this depravity.
Boy bs father already nailed his colors to the mast with his obnoxious outburst in court. The judge will be keen to see how deep that vein of lack of any conscience goes....

iamwhoiam · 13-07-2019 11:52AM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t think he’s seeking assurances or promises or anything like that. I think he wants to speak to them to get a “feeling” about the boys home life, upbringing etc
so he can understand more what brought them to this depravity.
Boy bs father already nailed his colors to the mast with his obnoxious outburst in court. The judge will be keen to see how deep that vein of lack of any conscience goes....

What I really meant was that the parents could potentially say the boys had a tough life and were bullied etc or struggled with a death or something to make them look vulnerable . I guess the judge is far more clued in though and wont be influenced

volchitsa · 13-07-2019 12:06PM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t expect the sentencing to go ahead on the 15. The judge expressed interest in interviewing the parents of the two boys.
He’ll get a feeling about their background from that which will help him to make appropriate deductions.

I don't think that should necessarily delay sentencing though - presumably being available for anything to do with their sons' trial should be a priority for the parents, you'd hope so anyway.

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 12:10PM

volchitsa wrote: »

I don't think that should necessarily delay sentencing though - presumably being available for anything to do with their sons' trial should be a priority for the parents, you'd hope so anyway.

I don’t suppose they even have to be available. I think it’s already been suggested in the press that sentencing will be possibly delayed while these arrangements for interviews are made.it doesn’t matter anyway. The judge can take as long as he likes as far as I’m concerned as long as there’s justice for Ana.

Suckit · 13-07-2019 12:33PM

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/parents-of-the-two-boys-found-guilty-of-ana-kriegel-murder-likely-to-be-interviewed-by-courtappointed-clinicians-ahead-of-sentencing-38269554.html

THE PARENTS of two boys found guilty of murdering Ana Kriegel are likely to be interviewed by court-appointed clinicians during the course of preparing reports on them.

Both a child psychiatrist and a consultant forensic psychiatrist will now be asked to prepare reports on the two defendants, in addition to reports on the boys from a clinical psychologist, after further direction was sought on the judge's orders.

The teenagers were found guilty last month of the murder of Ana Kriegel at an abandoned farmhouse in Lucan on May 14, 2018.

One of them, known only as Boy A, was also convicted of aggravated sexual assault.

The teenagers, who were just 13 years old at the time, had denied the offences.

Ana's body, naked apart from a pair of black socks, was found by gardai in a derelict farmhouse, Glenwood House, Laraghcon, Clonee Road, in Lucan at 1pm on May 17, 2018.

The 14-year-old had been reported missing by her parents Patric and Geraldine Kriegel three days earlier.

Following the guilty verdicts, Mr Justice Paul McDermott remanded both boys in custody to Oberstown Detention Centre, and adjourned sentencing.

The judge had also ordered probation and psychiatrist reports for both defendants, as well as school reports and any other available reports, saying he was "seeking professional assistance" in relation to this very difficult case.

This morning, the matter came before Judge McDermott again, after Brendan Grehan SC, for the DPP, said that the office had received a letter from Professor Harry Kennedy, consultant forensic psychiatrist and executive clinical director, National Forensic Mental Health Service.

Mr Grehan said Prof Kennedy had sought some directions in terms of complying with the judge's orders.

Mr Grehan said Prof Kennedy had made a number of suggestions in his letter, including that the boys be assessed by a clinical psychologist with appropriate child and adolescent experience, and that the boys' parents be interviewed.

Mr Grehan said Prof Kennedy had further suggested that the teenagers be assessed by both a consultant child psychiatrist and a consultant forensic psychiatrist.

Patrick Gageby SC, for Boy A, said his client's family had no objection to the course recommended by Prof Kennedy. However, Mr Gageby said it was not entirely clear to the defence whether the Central Mental Hospital or the HSE had a consultant forensic psychiatrist specialising in child and adolescent matters on its books.

Mr Gageby said he was aware there was such a specialist in the UK.

Damien Colgan, for Boy B, also said his client and family would co-operate and had no difficulty with Prof Kennedy's suggestions.

Judge McDermott said he accepted the clinical recommendations of Prof Kennedy in assisting the court.

He accepted that the timescale for preparing the reports may now be more extensive.

The judge also said he was conscious the boys were in the early stages of their teenage years. He said he would like some indication from the director of Oberstown as to how young offenders, who are in the detention centre for longer periods, are dealt with in terms of educational and other facilities.

The matter is due before the court again on July 15.

mrjoneill · 13-07-2019 12:44PM

volchitsa wrote: »

I don't think that should necessarily delay sentencing though - presumably being available for anything to do with their sons' trial should be a priority for the parents, you'd hope so anyway.

I had assumed there was an automatic (mandatory) life sentence for a murder conviction with the trial judge imposing a tariff of period to be served in detention with the right for review. But this is not the case the Children's Act allows these to walk away after sentence being served if they are given a determined sentence & the state has no recourse to recalling them on expiry of it should they re-offend. Same they will have no criminal record. I'm sure the trial judge will be very aware of these facts when it comes to sentencing esp taking into account the devious twisted savagery these got up to in the brutal murder of the beautiful girl Ana and the fact there has been no expressions of remorse. I fear esp of Boy A being out in less than 10yrs living next to people and they totally unaware of who he is.

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 12:45PM

Suckit wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/parents-of-the-two-boys-found-guilty-of-ana-kriegel-murder-likely-to-be-interviewed-by-courtappointed-clinicians-ahead-of-sentencing-38269554.html

Thanks. This is all very encouraging. 3 professional medical child mental health practitioners examined 16 year old schoolboy Aaron Campbell in the course of his trial and sentencing earlier this year for the abduction rape and murder and concealing the body of 6 year old Alesha McPhail last summer in Scotland and found him to have no psychiatric illnesses apart from a slight personality disorder.
The judge then could give him a minimum of 27 years in prison and ordered that he be named and his picture published.
A very satisfactory result.

mrjoneill · 13-07-2019 01:15PM

zanador wrote: »

With all the talk of boys and porn etc I thought I'd go to an expert and ask their opinion - ie my 14 year old son.

He said 'ah, ma, we know it's not real, it's just for **** and I bet we don't watch half as much as you think' he went onto say that there are boys who watch loads and get obsessed but that's very rare. And also what about girls watching it.

I said should it be banned and he said no and that 'the torture vids some people send round are worse'. Executions and torture and the like. And I asked should they be banned and he said maybe.

My opinion as a parent is this: No point banning anything, they'll do it anyway or find a way and if it's forced underground then we REALLY won't have an idea what they are doing. I have an open house as in all this stuff is talked about regularly and no judgements cast. As with drugs and all other life things really I think all we can do is give them guidance, hopefully at home and definitely at school, and then just hope.

I have a much bigger problem with all the adults who let Ana down. For example as a teacher and youth worker if i saw kids getting up and leaving every time another child came over then I wouldn't rest until it was sorted. Same with the school. I'd have parents in and restorative work done and would keep doing so until the problem stopped however long that took. I am furiousure at the school. Those two boys are aberrations imo, part of the diversity of our species (a terrible part) but if you are a good person who does nothing when a young girl is being destroyed by her peers then you are not a good person you are part of the problem.

RIP Ana

No doubt the genie is out of the bottle & the smart phone ensures its not going back in. What I understand is 12yr olds are now sharing their porn now like once we shared/swapped football card. The ones with the best porn is in most demand. Those without smartphones are being charged to view those who haven't, the going rate being €2. Obv the preference would be they would not get this access till well into their teens. But what damage is it doing? Is it turning society into a more aggressive sexual species? From reporting and court cases there is no doubt a rise in sex assault cases. This could also be due to a rise in reporting. I always reflect in our evolution and right into the middle ages sex was without much taboo associated to it and kids where exposed to it young.

Kidchameleon · 13-07-2019 02:08PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Boy bs father already nailed his colors to the mast with his obnoxious outburst in court. The judge will be keen to see how deep that vein of lack of any conscience goes....

Excuse me, what? So the man has an outburst at a time of stress you will never understand and you equate that to a lack of conscience? Do you think he is the only person who has ever done that in court?

Vicarious Function · 13-07-2019 02:53PM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t expect the sentencing to go ahead on the 15. The judge expressed interest in interviewing the parents of the two boys.
He’ll get a feeling about their background from that which will help him to make appropriate deductions.

Far as I understand, splinter65m, it's not a question of the Judge "interviewing the Parents". By now you will have seen the link suplied by Suckit:

Suckit wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/parents-of-the-two-boys-found-guilty-of-ana-kriegel-murder-likely-to-be-interviewed-by-courtappointed-clinicians-ahead-of-sentencing-38269554.html

Apparently it will be qualified clinicians, who will do the interviewing and send in resulting reports. So that will ensure distance between the Judge and the Parents, in case anybody, at a later date, could accuse him of being influenced in some way by them on a personal basis, and thus influencing the sentencing of the two boys. Just my understanding of it!

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 03:31PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Excuse me, what? So the man has an outburst at a time of stress you will never understand and you equate that to a lack of conscience? Do you think he is the only person who has ever done that in court?

Outburst was Totally inappropriate and uncalled for and would have been duly noted by the judge and I fully expect that it prompted his desire to have the parents grilled by qualified professionals.
Boy b comes from a family where even when his father heard with his own ears and saw with his own eyes the appalling lies and lack of any kind of respect or remorse from his own son, for his part in the depraved murder of a young girl, he still chose to blame the Gardai the prosecution the judge and the jury, for having the brass neck to find his Sonny Jim guilty.
No remorse for the actions of his own child, no grief that he’d raised a monster, no dignity nothing.
Total denial.
The judge will read a report detailing all this and hopefully he will keep boy b as far away from civilization for as long as need be for him to be decontaminated of the total lack of any morals conferred on him by his awful father.

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 03:32PM

Vicarious Function wrote: »

Far as I understand, splinter65m, it's not a question of the Judge "interviewing the Parents". By now you will have seen the link suplied by Suckit:

Apparently it will be qualified clinicians, who will do the interviewing and send in resulting reports. So that will ensure distance between the Judge and the Parents, in case anybody, at a later date, could accuse him of being influenced in some way by them on a personal basis, and thus influencing the sentencing of the two boys. Just my understanding of it!

Yes thanks I saw this earlier. It’s very satisfactory.

Faugheen · 13-07-2019 03:36PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Excuse me, what? So the man has an outburst at a time of stress you will never understand and you equate that to a lack of conscience? Do you think he is the only person who has ever done that in court?

Anything you say in open court is noted. His comments are on the public record and were directed at the judicial system.

I understand he might be upset, but he saw everything his son did and he still had a pop at the Gardai while they were comforting two people whose daughter was brutally killed.

Your insistence to argue against anything in this case is baffling, to be perfectly honest. It's almost like you believe that Boy B didn't do it.

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 04:16PM

Faugheen wrote: »

Anything you say in open court is noted. His comments are on the public record and were directed at the judicial system.

I understand he might be upset, but he saw everything his son did and he still had a pop at the Gardai while they were comforting two people whose daughter was brutally killed.

Your insistence to argue against anything in this case is baffling, to be perfectly honest. It's almost like you believe that Boy B didn't do it.

I think everyone here believes that both boys are guilty, maybe that boy a is more guilty then boy b.
But one poster has
1. blamed Ana’s father for her death in letting her out alone with a caller identified by her brother early on a sunny evening in May.
2. Cast aspersions on the validity of Ana’s relationship with her parents based, I think, on the concept that she was adopted.
3. Defended boy bs fathers outburst in court robustly totally disregarding Ana’s parents feelings.
4. Held boy bs father up quite emotionally as a perfect example of fatherhood, a man more deserving of our sympathy then the dead girls family.
5. The Kriegel family including Ana are somehow inferior I think because both Ana and her father are not native Irish and Ana was not their natural child. Boy b is the biological child of his father so we must give his feelings and attachment to his child more credit.
6. Any reference to Ana’s beauty is apparently “disturbing”. Inference is that it’s evidence of paedophilia.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Collie D · 13-07-2019 04:48PM

I wouldn’t fuel that particular poster any further. Don’t quote him, don’t react to him and ignore him if he quotes you.

Not sure what their game is but best ignored.

iamwhoiam · 13-07-2019 04:50PM

Collie D wrote: »

I wouldn’t fuel that particular poster any further. Don’t quote him, don’t react to him and ignore him if he quotes you.

Not sure what their game is but best ignored.

Agreed .

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 05:01PM

Collie D wrote: »

I wouldn’t fuel that particular poster any further. Don’t quote him, don’t react to him and ignore him if he quotes you.

Not sure what their game is but best ignored.

Hard to ignore. I detect not very far below the thin veneer of outrage clear undertones of deep misogyny, jingoism and xenophobia.
What’s great is that so many people are genuinely outraged by the depravity of this crime that this attitude stands out like a direct thumb.

up for anything · 13-07-2019 05:05PM

splinter65 wrote: »

no grief that he’d raised a monster

Harsh! Not many people set out to raise monsters... even monsters themselves. If there's one thing any parent knows is that when it comes down to it your children are separate and independent beings and that while you hope that everything you tried to instill in them guides and leads them there can be many many times it doesn't.

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 05:54PM

up for anything wrote: »

Harsh! Not many people set out to raise monsters... even monsters themselves. If there's one thing any parent knows is that when it comes down to it your children are separate and independent beings and that while you hope that everything you tried to instill in them guides and leads them there can be many many times it doesn't.

Maybe I phrased it badly. Should’ve said that he showed no grief that the child he’d reared had turned out to be a monster. Didn’t intend it to be harsh, just factual imo.

volchitsa · 13-07-2019 06:00PM

up for anything wrote: »

Harsh! Not many people set out to raise monsters... even monsters themselves. If there's one thing any parent knows is that when it comes down to it your children are separate and independent beings and that while you hope that everything you tried to instill in them guides and leads them there can be many many times it doesn't.

There's a difference in blaming someone for their children's actions (that would be harsh without real evidence) and the parent themselves feeling/expressing grief about their child's actions. Being open to the possibility that his actions might have been even partly responsible for his son becoming a murderer is not only natural, it would actually tend to show that they are responsible, caring parents. Because they are automatically taking responsibility for what happened, even when it may not be their fault.

What people are finding hard to understand here is the father's apparent anger at the court system and not at his son, never mind any doubts about his own parenting.

Kidchameleon · 13-07-2019 06:23PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Outburst was Totally inappropriate and uncalled for and would have been duly noted by the judge and I fully expect that it prompted his desire to have the parents grilled by qualified professionals.
Boy b comes from a family where even when his father heard with his own ears and saw with his own eyes the appalling lies and lack of any kind of respect or remorse from his own son, for his part in the depraved murder of a young girl, he still chose to blame the Gardai the prosecution the judge and the jury, for having the brass neck to find his Sonny Jim guilty.
No remorse for the actions of his own child, no grief that he’d raised a monster, no dignity nothing.
Total denial.
The judge will read a report detailing all this and hopefully he will keep boy b as far away from civilization for as long as need be for him to be decontaminated of the total lack of any morals conferred on him by his awful father.

If you were correct, A's parents would not be included in the process. So you are wrong.

splinter65 · 13-07-2019 06:46PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If you were correct, A's parents would not be included in the process. So you are wrong.

There’s no doubt in my mind that the outrageous outburst from the father of boy b in part prompted the judge to seek reports on clinical interviews with both sets of parents.
The nature of the outburst was very telling, first of all the loud denial of what was obvious to anyone who could see and hear (“an innocent boy”), the attack on the Gardai the prosecution team and the jury, (“you bunch of scumbags”) all of whom had done an impeccable and faultless job ( as agreed by the defense team who had no complaints to make) and gave an insight to all but yourself about the nature of the man. The total contempt in that moment for the family of the child his son murdered.
It was a clear as a bell then that clinically anslysed interviews with both sets of parents would go along way to informing the judge as to appropriate sentencing.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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