Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

volchitsa · 07-07-2019 12:58PM

Deep_learning wrote: »

Neither of these backup your twisted logic.

There is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim of bullying. Girls are more frequently the victims of bullying. Often the bullying is perpetrated by boys.

One of those articles says that disabled children and children with special needs also reported much higher incidences of bullying than other pupils. I wonder does poster Eric Cartman think that means that other disabled children are also the bullies in those cases?

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 01:00PM

I'm out of the schooling loop but technology could surely step in here. Have a public (amongst parents) bullying dashboard where there children receives points against for bullying positive points for being nice. Would be quick to motivate dysfunctional parents.

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 01:09PM

Alternatively, let a school issue 3 bullying violations against a student and it becomes a public order offense?

Certainly think there is scope to intact a new law, I'd be surprised if Ana's family hadn't some strong views.

rodge123 · 07-07-2019 01:10PM

Damien360 wrote: »

Kids don't fear the guards anymore. They would rise to them looking for an argument and a quick march to the courts for a payout if anyone touched them. It would be a mess. Enforcement would be impossible.

Keep it in the school system. Allow schools to expel without recourse if the procedures are followed (similar to companies). A points system similar to your 3 strikes and your out. But principals would have to be held to account for not dealing with bullying when it is reported to them.

Bullying goes much further than schools and companies have been successfully brought to court for failing to deal with reported bullying. Not sure if the fault is pointed at HR or the director of the company. Money fixes this (somewhat) but in a school it has to be a person's job that will be at stake as I don't believe money will fix it. The state would just payout but if a principals job is at stake over failure to act, then we might get on top of this.

As an aside, I also believe the state pays too often with no consequences for the person in state employment that caused it. It is always the system at fault. HSE is the biggest example of this. That's why I think, until jobs are at stake, little will change. And I don't mean the ministers as that's a cop out.

Yeah I agree with a lot of what you say there and job accountability.
Only issue I see is that I imagine principles have a massive amount of things to juggle already without adding this responsibility on (I don’t work in eduction so unsure).
Maybe additional money to hire bullying officers employed by dept of eduction.
principle passes on info to them, they do the dirty work and give a report on case back to principle to make a decision.
That also avoids teachers been abused or cars damaged as most of work done by external officer.
For serious cases they principle also has to pass case details on standard Gardaí with parents permission.

splinter65 · 07-07-2019 01:40PM

Vicarious Function wrote: »

If AGS is involved, who knows what the reprisals for the Teacher/Principal woud be. Probably more than a can of paint on their door.

Sorry, IMO - your suggestion is not a workable solution.

The bully never has to know that the school was ever involved.
The parent of the bullied child complains to the school. The school make discreet enquiries to see if there is in fact bullying. If there is then the school hand their “findings” to AGS who take it from there. I think that bullying should from now in come under the heading “anti social behavior” because that’s what it is.
Arriving at the bully’s front door to discuss with his/her parents their child’s “anti social behavior” is a lot more serious.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 01:53PM

All missing the point.
School has a zero tolerance policy. Every school. National policy. Government down.

Anyone or any child breaking that. Off you go.

This is that simple.

Employers and companies have these policies already.

Why not schools?

Suckit · 07-07-2019 04:33PM

A start would be nice.
I am not sure how many children took their own lives down to bullying, but I remember a few years ago a few had happened quite close to each other including two sisters - Erin and Shanon Gallagher.
At the time there were reports in the papers stating that bullying had been rising since 2005
A few years later France launched a bullying hotline and a separate number for cyber bullying.
After the death of Phoebe Prince in the U.S., Massachusetts introduced a state anti-bullying task force.
For such a small country we have had a lot of deaths as a result of bullying and still not a lot being done. Almost nothing other than the independent bodies who have fund raisers for most of their cash.

Something really needs to be done, not only does the bullying seem more vicious today, it is relentless. Because of the internet a bully can follow a person around and never give up. Demeaning them would only be a small part of it.

How hard could it be to set up a number.

Orchids · 07-07-2019 04:50PM

I think Catherine Murphy TD is a friend of Ana's family, I'd like to think she would try to get something done in relation to bullying which seemed to be so shocking in Ana's case & everyone seemed to know about it & yet nothing was done.
RIP Beautiful Ana

Eric Cartman · 07-07-2019 04:53PM

Orchids wrote: »

I think Catherine Murphy TD is a friend of Ana's family, I'd like to think she would try to get something done in relation to bullying which seemed to be so shocking in Ana's case & everyone seemed to know about it & yet nothing was done.
RIP Beautiful Ana

Knowing catherine Murphy she probably drove straight up to the house the day the boys were caught and wrote to the liffey champion saying she was doing a lot, just so she could milk it for years.

iamwhoiam · 07-07-2019 04:55PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Knowing catherine Murphy she probably drove straight up to the house the day the boys were caught and wrote to the liffey champion saying she was doing a lot, just so she could milk it for years.

Another post plucked from the air with nothing to back it up .

Eric Cartman · 07-07-2019 05:02PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Another post plucked from the air with nothing to back it up .

In my opinion catherine murphy does nothing round the town and is just interested in keeping herself on the political career bandwagon. The other poster asserted without proof that catherine murphy is friends with the family , nobody asks. I post a tounge in cheek opinion about catherine murphy based on how I feel she represents the town and suddenly I have to have some sort of statistical backup to it..... :pac:

come off it mate.

Collie D · 07-07-2019 05:09PM

Hardly the place to discuss opinions of the local TD

iamwhoiam · 07-07-2019 05:26PM

Orchids wrote: »

I think Catherine Murphy TD is a friend of Ana's family, I'd like to think she would try to get something done in relation to bullying which seemed to be so shocking in Ana's case & everyone seemed to know about it & yet nothing was done.
RIP Beautiful Ana

She is , she had said so publicly .
It would be fantastic if in Anas name an anti bullying policy could be put in place.
I think a task force could be put in place and a school could call on them to step in if they need guidance and information

iamwhoiam · 07-07-2019 05:29PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

In my opinion catherine murphy does nothing round the town and is just interested in keeping herself on the political career bandwagon. The other poster asserted without proof that catherine murphy is friends with the family , nobody asks. I post a tounge in cheek opinion about catherine murphy based on how I feel she represents the town and suddenly I have to have some sort of statistical backup to it..... :pac:

come off it mate.

I am not your mate . I am an adult woman

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/from-beaming-pink-princess-to-shy-teen-anas-life-in-pictures-38244392.html

Ana had a big personality, according to Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy, a family friend. The Kriegel home was "noisy" because Ana was in it, and her parents often talked about the foundations being undermined because of the noise, Catherine laughingly recalled on RTE's Prime Time last week.

Damien360 · 07-07-2019 05:47PM

Suckit wrote: »

A start would be nice.
I am not sure how many children took their own lives down to bullying, but I remember a few years ago a few had happened quite close to each other including two sisters - Erin and Shanon Gallagher.
At the time there were reports in the papers stating that bullying had been rising since 2005
A few years later France launched a bullying hotline and a separate number for cyber bullying.
After the death of Phoebe Prince in the U.S., Massachusetts introduced a state anti-bullying task force.
For such a small country we have had a lot of deaths as a result of bullying and still not a lot being done. Almost nothing other than the independent bodies who have fund raisers for most of their cash.

Something really needs to be done, not only does the bullying seem more vicious today, it is relentless. Because of the internet a bully can follow a person around and never give up. Demeaning them would only be a small part of it.

How hard could it be to set up a number.

I read this and thought of just googling the French anti bullying hotline. It exists primarily for companies but it would seem from some articles (see link of one good one below) say it is not really for schools and is pushed back to the school. Quite a lot of countries deal with workplace bullying but don't have anything for schools beyond pushing back to the school.

The French set up a forum of 12 year olds to survey bullying issues and have an initiative with Facebook as a result but it is an awareness campaign only. A national day of 8th November is given to this awareness also. No actions that I can find although I am relying on google translate.

We are great at setting up hotlines in this country but there is no follow up. It would be a pointless waste of money.

Link below is decent for different approaches to bullying. Schools get a mention at the end of each country paragraph. Hopefully I get the syntax right for link.

https://www.hcalawyers.com.au/blog/bullying-laws-around-the-world/amp/[url][/url]

Suckit · 07-07-2019 05:54PM

Damien360 wrote: »

I read this and thought of just googling the French anti bullying hotline. It exists primarily for companies but it would seem from some articles (see link of one good one below) say it is not really for schools and is pushed back to the school. Quite a lot of countries deal with workplace bullying but don't have anything for schools beyond pushing back to the school.

I don't know for sure. I can only remember it vaguely.
It is in my head, but I can't remember where I read it.

I think this may be it - http://en.rfi.fr/general/20151029-France-unveils-bullying-hotline-students-clamp-down-harassment

But whether or not they stuck to it I have no idea.

Damien360 · 07-07-2019 05:59PM

Suckit wrote: »

I don't know for sure. I can only remember it vaguely.
It is in my head, but I can't remember where I read it.

I think this may be it - http://en.rfi.fr/general/20151029-France-unveils-bullying-hotline-students-clamp-down-harassment

But whether or not they stuck to it I have no idea.

I found that link when searching but that was just the result of the forum of 12 year olds. It encompasses companies and schools but has teeth against companies (also determines maximum damage of 32k) but nothing dealing with schools. Always back to the school and the parent boards (similar schools structure to here I think).

corpusvile · 08-07-2019 09:17AM

strandroad wrote: »

Do you not think that bullying is a separate (obviously very serious) issue here and not necessarily a direct cause of Ana's death or the killers' plans?

I mean, even a "popular" (I hate this phrase!) 14 year old girl would still skip happily to meet a boy she had a crush on. Do you think that they picked Ana for her vulnerability, or rather because she was developed, pretty and met the stereotype of "Russian Anastasia" they saw on porn sites?

Maybe was a combination of both, but I very strongly suspect that had they not have targeted Ana, they'd have targeted someone else anyway. I don't think bullying was necessarily a direct cause with these two specifically.

evolving_doors · 08-07-2019 09:33AM

corpusvile wrote: »

Maybe was a combination of both, but I very strongly suspect that had they not have targeted Ana, they'd have targeted someone else anyway. I don't think bullying was necessarily a direct cause with these two specifically.

There's no doubt they exploited a vulnerable person though. So I don't think they might have been as ready to entrap someone with a strong network of friends.
When people are marginalised then exploitation is more likely.

It probably sounds strange but I doubt they would have picked on a popular kid. Reminds me of the Anabel nightclub murder, who got killed and who ended up doing the time... Both weren't the 'popular' kids.

So maybe not a direct cause but definitely a contributing factor.

corpusvile · 08-07-2019 09:36AM

It quite possibly did contribute but the nature & apparent pre-planning of this murder strongly intimates they primarily wanted to murder someone & again I do believe if it wasn't poor Ana it would have been someone else.

Stop moaning ffs · 08-07-2019 11:45AM

Irish Daily Mail fined 25,000 euro for contempt of court during the Ana Kriégel trial. Editor, Sebastian Hamilton fined 4,500Euro - Mr J McDermott said directions Mr Hamilton had given in relation to court copy, were ignored by senior editorial staff but he as editor was responsible for this systems failure.

Proper order.

political analyst · 08-07-2019 11:54AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Irish Daily Mail fined 25,000 euro for contempt of court during the Ana Kriégel trial. Editor, Sebastian Hamilton fined 4,500Euro - Mr J McDermott said directions Mr Hamilton had given in relation to court copy, were ignored by senior editorial staff but he as editor was responsible for this systems failure.

Proper order.

Why is an editor punished at all for an act that was not just unauthorised by him but which he instructed should not have been done? Is that not like saying it's the Garda Commissioner's fault that crimes were committed by a small number of gardaí?

political analyst · 08-07-2019 11:57AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

There's no doubt they exploited a vulnerable person though. So I don't think they might have been as ready to entrap someone with a strong network of friends.
When people are marginalised then exploitation is more likely.

It probably sounds strange but I doubt they would have picked on a popular kid. Reminds me of the Anabel nightclub murder, who got killed and who ended up doing the time... Both weren't the 'popular' kids.

So maybe not a direct cause but definitely a contributing factor.

Actually, two were convicted on the charge of violent disorder, for which each of them served an 18-month sentence. One of the two was convicted on the charge of manslaughter but that conviction was quashed on appeal. The killing of Brian Murphy was a spur-of-the-moment crime, unlike Ana's murder.

ohnonotgmail · 08-07-2019 11:59AM

political analyst wrote: »

Why is an editor punished at all for an act that was not just unauthorised by him but which he instructed should not have been done? Is that not like saying it's the Garda Commissioner's fault that crimes were committed by a small number of gardaí?

because he is ultimately responsible for what gets published.

Road-Hog · 09-07-2019 02:20AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because he is ultimately responsible for what gets published.

What offending article/material did his paper publish to merit the fine....?

splinter65 · 09-07-2019 05:52AM

Road-Hog wrote: »

What offending article/material did his paper publish to merit the fine....?

Journalists employed by him, under his direction, answerable to him, went on the radio and broke the law.

Emme · 09-07-2019 05:52AM

Katherine Zappone's has suggested that children who commit serious crimes should receive counselling instead of being detained. I don't think it is appropriate in all cases. Some criminals should not be allowed in society no matter how young.

evolving_doors · 09-07-2019 06:56AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Journalists employed by him, under his direction, answerable to him, went on the radio and broke the law.

I thought that it was because when the paper said the footage of the boys on the CCTV was the moment she was "being led to her death". It was implying that the boys were guilty while the trial was still taking place.

Hannibal_Smith · 09-07-2019 06:57AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

I thought that it was because when the paper said the footage of the boys on the CCTV was the moment she was "being led to her death". It was implying that the boys were guilty while the trial was still taking place.

Was just about to say the same

09-07-2019 07:33AM

Emme wrote: »

Katherine Zappone's has suggested that children who commit serious crimes should receive counselling instead of being detained. I don't think it is appropriate in all cases. Some criminals should not be allowed in society no matter how young.

''Instead of''. Why not ''as well as''?.

Zappone is the type of person people talk about when they refer to liberals or the left in a mocking manner. She's far too soft. I'm not an advocate for death sentences by any means but at the same time punishment must be served.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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