Migration Megathread

thomas 123 · 06-07-2019 11:01AM

Dannyriver wrote: »

Link...proof...research either qualitative or quantitative would be helpful ... on th other hand i've found research around xenophobia from longitudinal research by the ESRI [2002-2014] some of which I quote below. You will find hints of your demographic in the second 2 paragraphs.

'the attitude of Irish-born people towards immigrants followed our boom and bust economic cycle, shifting from positive to negative as the recession took hold and regaining some ground as the economy recovered. Responses by individuals varied, depending on financial security, educational qualifications or social class. The greatest resistance to further immigration was displayed by low-income groups that regarded foreign workers as competitors for jobs and housing.

Apart from economic considerations in opposing immigration, underlying racism and xenophobia were detected. People surveyed were less likely to oppose entry by migrants with similar ethnic or cultural antecedents'

Incipient racism is evident from findings that nearly half of Irish adults believe some cultures are superior to others, while 45 per cent take the view that individuals from certain cultures work harder.

Turn on the news any night of the week, see how much our rents are rising - as one measure.

To reiterate I’m not against immigration. Just uncontrolled mass immigration of unskilled, unverified, in many cases unknown(age, nation) peoples. Organize it better, have reasonable targets for a nation of our size. Actually integrate people in, rather than allowing enclaves to establish.

I like the way I brought up having sensible debate and you still managed to reply with a nasty comment about “my demographic”. This is why nobody touches this debate publicly.

thomas 123 · 06-07-2019 11:06AM

Midlife wrote: »

Do you mean refugees? Genuine question, it wasn't totally clear from your post.

Ya it was very general to be fair. Anyone walking or boating to Europe, originating in Africa. Horrible situation in their areas, but again we need to plan and accommodate accordingly - within our means.

Of course there is this whole argument about who’s genuinely a refugee, but if your desperate enough to hop in the boat I think you should at least have a chance to explain or identify yourself.

It’s a filthy can of worms but it needs to be discussed by the people qualified to discuss it.

Brian? · 06-07-2019 11:41AM

thomas 123 wrote: »

Turn on the news any night of the week, see how much our rents are rising - as one measure.

To reiterate I’m not against immigration. Just uncontrolled mass immigration of unskilled, unverified, in many cases unknown(age, nation) peoples. Organize it better, have reasonable targets for a nation of our size. Actually integrate people in, rather than allowing enclaves to establish.

I like the way I brought up having sensible debate and you still managed to reply with a nasty comment about “my demographic”. This is why nobody touches this debate publicly.

We have controlled immigration of poorly skilled people from outside the EU. Why do you think we don’t?

Dannyriver · 06-07-2019 12:31PM

thomas 123 wrote: »

Turn on the news any night of the week, see how much our rents are rising - as one measure.

To reiterate I’m not against immigration. Just uncontrolled mass immigration of unskilled, unverified, in many cases unknown(age, nation) peoples. Organize it better, have reasonable targets for a nation of our size. Actually integrate people in, rather than allowing enclaves to establish.

I like the way I brought up having sensible debate and you still managed to reply with a nasty comment about “my demographic”. This is why nobody touches this debate publicly.

Uncontrolled mass immigration? we don't have uncontrolled mass immigration. Who told you that nonsense?

You re entire post was based on the use of demographics , eg hard working polish ...lazy others...If you re going to cloak your arguments in such rhetoric surely it's reasonable to expect the same in return.

I've no problem 'touching this debate publicly' .

Moleskin · 06-07-2019 12:37PM

Brian? wrote: »

We have controlled immigration of poorly skilled people from outside the EU. Why do you think we don’t?

We do not have controlled immigration of poorly skilled people from outside the EU.

Did you watch the recent Primetime programme on immigration, it was well overdue. There are parts of the North Inner City Dublin which have a tiny minority of native Irish.Ask anyone from Longford town or Mullingar what their towns are like, look at the school population in these areas, there are so many non nationals and if you look deeper you will find they are largely supported through social welfare payments.

Have a look at the breakdown of those of Dublin city Councils housing lists, a huge number are non nationals from outside the EU. We are never going to sort out the housing issue as long as we have this unending stream of people coming here. We are a tiny tiny country and we dont have the resources to cope with the numbers of unskilled coming, how obtuse are you that you cant see the disaster unfolding.

We have well educated irish people who work very long hours and hand over over a third of their after tax income in rent, they cant save for a home of their own and yet their huge taxes are going to fund a house for unskilled non EU immigrants.The Irish cant save enough to qualify for a mortgage, wont be eligible to go on any housing list, they cant start their families but the non Eu immigrant will have any number of children and why not when the entire cost of those children is met by the taxpayer.

Its the young Irish people I feel so sorry for, seriously what is the point of the sacrifices they make to study hard to get a good degree, they would be better off leaving school early, start a large family and then sit back waiting for handouts.

Dannyriver · 06-07-2019 12:50PM

Moleskin wrote: »

We do not have controlled immigration of poorly skilled people from outside the EU.

Did you watch the recent Primetime programme on immigration, it was well overdue. There are parts of the North Inner City Dublin which have a tiny minority of native Irish.Ask anyone from Longford town or Mullingar what their towns are like, look at the school population in these areas, there are so many non nationals and if you look deeper you will find they are largely supported through social welfare payments.

Have a look at the breakdown of those of Dublin city Councils housing lists, a huge number are non nationals from outside the EU. We are never going to sort out the housing issue as long as we have this unending stream of people coming here. We are a tiny tiny country and we dont have the resources to cope with the numbers of unskilled coming, how obtuse are you that you cant see the disaster unfolding.

We have well educated irish people who work very long hours and hand over over a third of their after tax income in rent, they cant save for a home of their own and yet their huge taxes are going to fund a house for unskilled non EU immigrants.The Irish cant save enough to qualify for a mortgage, wont be eligible to go on any housing list, they cant start their families but the non Eu immigrant will have any number of children and why not when the entire cost of those children is met by the taxpayer.

Its the young Irish people I feel so sorry for, seriously what is the point of the sacrifices they make to study hard to get a good degree, they would be better off leaving school early, start a large family and then sit back waiting for handouts.

Link please?

Moleskin · 06-07-2019 12:58PM

What link do you want, how can anyone provide you with a link when the immigration from non EU countries is uncontrolled.

I doubt if anyone actually knows how many people are in the country and the UK will happily let their unwanted refugees or whatever across the water to us once Brexit happens. We cant even control it now so we might as well just leave the doors unlocked once Britain leaves.

Ask the senior housing officials in Dublin City Council to talk to you about the breakdown of the numbers on the housing list.

We have a housing crisis so there should be no numbers from outside the EU on the housing list. If they come here and cant support themselves they should be deported back to their country of origin before they find their way around the benefits.

Dannyriver · 06-07-2019 01:10PM

Moleskin wrote: »

What link do you want, how can anyone provide you with a link when the immigration from non EU countries is uncontrolled.

I doubt if anyone actually knows how many people are in the country and the UK will happily let their unwanted refugees or whatever across the water to us once Brexit happens. We cant even control it now so we might as well just leave the doors unlocked once Britain leaves.

Ask the senior housing officials in Dublin City Council to talk to you about the breakdown of the numbers on the housing list.

We have a housing crisis so there should be no numbers from outside the EU on the housing list. If they come here and cant support themselves they should be deported back to their country of origin before they find their way around the benefits.

The link that describes the policy that you are suggesting obviously.

To blame the housing crisis on refugees is an oversimplification beyond belief and downright wrong.

MrFresh · 06-07-2019 01:16PM

Moleskin wrote: »

What link do you want, how can anyone provide you with a link when the immigration from non EU countries is uncontrolled.

What do you mean by uncontrolled? There are lots of controls. You seem to be of the impression someone can fly in here from a foreign country outside the EU and go straight on the dole and on a housing list.

Moleskin · 06-07-2019 01:17PM

I didnt blame the housing crisis on refugees/economic migrants.

The facts are for some reason we are seen as an easy touch and we cant afford to absorb non EU migrants who have nothing to offer this country. As I said you only have to spend a very short time in other countries in Europe to realise just how out of control non EU migration to this country is. The evidence is there in front of you in the city centre and parts of West Dublin, Longford, Mullingar and other parts of the Midlands are packed to the gills with non nationals too.

We had one programme on RTE that actually examined what has been happening over the last few years but generally the media do not provide reasoned balanced discussion, this is mostly down to people like you preventing proper discussion taking place by shouting racist at everyone who is worried about whats happening.

Moleskin · 06-07-2019 01:19PM

MrFresh wrote: »

What do you mean by uncontrolled? There are lots of controls. You seem to be of the impression someone can fly in here from a foreign country outside the EU and go straight on the dole and on a housing list.

Link please specifically in relation to the controls.

Brian? · 06-07-2019 01:28PM

Moleskin wrote: »

We do not have controlled immigration of poorly skilled people from outside the EU.

We have tight controls on any immigrants from outside the EU, not just the poorly educated ones. You think the entire work has unfettered to immigrate to Ireland?

Did you watch the recent Primetime programme on immigration, it was well overdue. There are parts of the North Inner City Dublin which have a tiny minority of native Irish.Ask anyone from Longford town or Mullingar what their towns are like, look at the school population in these areas, there are so many non nationals and if you look deeper you will find they are largely supported through social welfare payments.

Have a look at the breakdown of those of Dublin city Councils housing lists, a huge number are non nationals from outside the EU. We are never going to sort out the housing issue as long as we have this unending stream of people coming here. We are a tiny tiny country and we dont have the resources to cope with the numbers of unskilled coming, how obtuse are you that you cant see the disaster unfolding.

We have well educated irish people who work very long hours and hand over over a third of their after tax income in rent, they cant save for a home of their own and yet their huge taxes are going to fund a house for unskilled non EU immigrants.The Irish cant save enough to qualify for a mortgage, wont be eligible to go on any housing list, they cant start their families but the non Eu immigrant will have any number of children and why not when the entire cost of those children is met by the taxpayer.

Its the young Irish people I feel so sorry for, seriously what is the point of the sacrifices they make to study hard to get a good degree, they would be better off leaving school early, start a large family and then sit back waiting for handouts.

Yeah. Demographics have changed and life has become more expensive, one didn’t necessarily cause the other though.

Dannyriver · 06-07-2019 01:32PM

Moleskin wrote: »

I didnt blame the housing crisis on refugees/economic migrants.

The facts are for some reason we are seen as an easy touch and we cant afford to absorb non EU migrants who have nothing to offer this country. As I said you only have to spend a very short time in other countries in Europe to realise just how out of control non EU migration to this country is. The evidence is there in front of you in the city centre and parts of West Dublin, Longford, Mullingar and other parts of the Midlands are packed to the gills with non nationals too.

We had one programme on RTE that actually examined what has been happening over the last few years but generally the media do not provide reasoned balanced discussion, this is mostly down to people like you preventing proper discussion taking place by shouting racist at everyone who is worried about whats happening.

I am worried about what is happening...I'm worried that the measures being taken around proper integration aren't being looked at...I'm worried that our government will make the same mistakes that colonialists such as France/Spain/UK/US have made when it comes to proper integration,,, I'm worried about the direct provision system...I'm worried about low skilled Irish laborers focusing on immigrants instead of economic policies of our governments...I'm worried about racism getting a hold in this country...I'm worried about migrants being blamed for housing crisis and scarcity due the neo liberal policies of the EU... I'm worried about the fact that the movement west is an inevitable consequence of climate change and that millions of people in the east will simply have to move west due to their countries becoming uninhabitable.

Moleskin · 06-07-2019 01:38PM

Dannyriver wrote: »

[/U][/B]

I am worried about what is happening...I'm worried that the measures being taken around proper integration aren't being looked at...I'm worried that our government will make the same mistakes that colonialists such as France/Spain/UK/US have made when it comes to proper integration,,, I'm worried about the direct provision system...I'm worried about low skilled Irish laborers focusing on immigrants instead of economic policies of our governments...I'm worried about racism getting a hold in this country...I'm worried about migrants being blamed for housing crisis and scarcity due the neo liberal policies of the EU... I'm worried about the fact that the movement west is an inevitable consequence of climate change and that millions of people in the east will simply have to move west due to their countries becoming uninhabitable.

What measures around proper integration would you like, ones that are financially realistic, please discuss.

thomas 123 · 06-07-2019 01:56PM

Dannyriver wrote: »

[/U][/B]

I am worried about what is happening...I'm worried that the measures being taken around proper integration aren't being looked at...I'm worried that our government will make the same mistakes that colonialists such as France/Spain/UK/US have made when it comes to proper integration,,, I'm worried about the direct provision system...I'm worried about low skilled Irish laborers focusing on immigrants instead of economic policies of our governments...I'm worried about racism getting a hold in this country...I'm worried about migrants being blamed for housing crisis and scarcity due the neo liberal policies of the EU... I'm worried about the fact that the movement west is an inevitable consequence of climate change and that millions of people in the east will simply have to move west due to their countries becoming uninhabitable.

We can defiantly agree on the integration side of things - that’s if you don’t mind agreeing with someone of my “Demographic”.

The current crop of migrants from Africa(Syrians aside) are not moving due to climate change, they are moving to escape war, escape rape, escape poverty. And in the majority of their cases I wouldn’t blame them.

Here’s a question for you, how does Ireland, or any country in Europe help the country or region these people come for by letting them in, thus encouraging more migration.

I think the majority of us have matured past the point of blaming an individual for their circumstance, so your racist fears are misplaced.

And on my point on housing - I want to be crystal clear migrants are not to blame at all, that is 100% down lack of supply. Lack of supply due to an increase in demand of which migration is a contributing factor, I’ve to rent I am also a contributing factor. It was just one example.

Take a look on YouTube for a guy called Stephen Monelux (spelling butchered) , watch his Ireland 2040 video, it covers some good points(not all of which I agree with) but it’s based on facts and stats. His videos where removed for no reason, but there are copies around.

Dannyriver · 06-07-2019 02:34PM

thomas 123 wrote: »

We can defiantly agree on the integration side of things - that’s if you don’t mind agreeing with someone of my “Demographic”.

The current crop of migrants from Africa(Syrians aside) are not moving due to climate change, they are moving to escape war, escape rape, escape poverty. And in the majority of their cases I wouldn’t blame them.

Here’s a question for you, how does Ireland, or any country in Europe help the country or region these people come for by letting them in, thus encouraging more migration.

I think the majority of us have matured past the point of blaming an individual for their circumstance, so your racist fears are misplaced.

And on my point on housing - I want to be crystal clear migrants are not to blame at all, that is 100% down lack of supply. Lack of supply due to an increase in demand of which migration is a contributing factor, I’ve to rent I am also a contributing factor. It was just one example.

Take a look on YouTube for a guy called Stephen Monelux (spelling butchered) , watch his Ireland 2040 video, it covers some good points(not all of which I agree with) but it’s based on facts and stats. His videos where removed for no reason, but there are copies around.

fair enough I take that back but I think everyone needs to be mindful of the language they use around this issue, your comparison between poles and others was not helpful. I teach and work with many nationalities that I assume you were referring to that work very hard indeed. As for Molyneaux he is a white replacement conspiracy theorist so I'd be slow to take anything he says as worth listening to.

Dannyriver · 06-07-2019 02:37PM

Moleskin wrote: »

What measures around proper integration would you like, ones that are financially realistic, please discuss.

One s that give equal opportunity and allow people to work for a living, supported by a tweaking of the system that favours corporations at the expense of workers.

MrFresh · 06-07-2019 03:10PM

Moleskin wrote: »

Link please specifically in relation to the controls.

You have to explain what you mean by uncontrolled first. Are you talking about entry to the state, remaining in the state, working in the state claiming social welfare. Where do you see uncontrolled?

Brian? · 06-07-2019 06:03PM

Moleskin wrote: »

Link please specifically in relation to the controls.

Pretty comprehensive guide to moving to Ireland for work here:

https://techlifeireland.com/moving-to-ireland/immigration-to-ireland/

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2019 06:06PM

Mod: Moleskin is a rereg who has been banned. They will not be responding to any more posts.

Ozymandius2011 · 07-07-2019 02:03AM

I wish Germany and the Netherlands would delist these ships that are flying their flags and subverting the territorial waters of Italy to bring in illegal immigrants. This ships may present their role as humanitarian, but they are a magnet for further inflows of illegal immigrants. Sea Watch defied a ruling from an Italian court not to land. Italian Deputy PM Matteo Salvini has called on Germany to revoke the license of such ships.

1o059k7ewrqj3n · 11-07-2019 11:51PM

thomas 123 wrote: »

We can defiantly agree on the integration side of things - that’s if you don’t mind agreeing with someone of my “Demographic”.

The current crop of migrants from Africa(Syrians aside) are not moving due to climate change, they are moving to escape war, escape rape, escape poverty. And in the majority of their cases I wouldn’t blame them.

Is male rape a common occurrence in Africa?

Diceicle · 12-07-2019 09:08AM

thomas 123 wrote: »

Take a look on YouTube for a guy called Stephen Monelux (spelling butchered) , watch his Ireland 2040 video, it covers some good points(not all of which I agree with) but it’s based on facts and stats. His videos where removed for no reason, but there are copies around.

I understand that video is geo-blocked in Ireland. Which I find creepy. Its available on other youtube channels though.

Hurrache · 12-07-2019 09:42AM

24 years since the massacre in Srebrenica, a genocide of over 8,000 European Muslims of all ages, but mostly men and boys, over the space of a few days.

Just a thought for those either young and naive, or just ignorant, to the fact that Muslims aren't new to Europe.

Midlife · 12-07-2019 04:10PM

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I wish Germany and the Netherlands would delist these ships that are flying their flags and subverting the territorial waters of Italy to bring in illegal immigrants. This ships may present their role as humanitarian, but they are a magnet for further inflows of illegal immigrants. Sea Watch defied a ruling from an Italian court not to land. Italian Deputy PM Matteo Salvini has called on Germany to revoke the license of such ships.

Firstly, I'm not sure there's any evidence that migrants will stop if more of them drown but it does seem logical.

Anyway, it's a tricky ethical question and both sides could easily be argued to be correct

Some people come down on the side of what they feel is better overall, in the final balance right and wrong are determined by the end sum. Others feel compelled to save lives if they can. Right and wrong are determined by actions.

I believe the only solution everyone would be happy with is more work stopping people becoming adrift in the med.

Sand · 18-07-2019 07:11PM

Midlife wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not sure there's any evidence that migrants will stop if more of them drown but it does seem logical.

It's not even a trade-off. When the EU navies suspended their 'rescue' efforts, less people attempted the crossing, less people successfully crossed and less people drowned. The NGOs are not saving lives, they are encouraging people to risk their lives. Nobody boards those deathtraps on the Libyan coast in the belief that they will be carried by the currents to Europe. They are waiting for an NGO ship to pick them up.

The only ethical position is to stop the people traffickers, criminalise the NGO's working with them and deport those who arrive. It saves lives, and in any case it is in the interests of Europeans which ought to be the primary concern of European governments.

RandomName2 · 19-07-2019 12:34PM

Sand wrote: »

It's not even a trade-off. When the EU navies suspended their 'rescue' efforts, less people attempted the crossing, less people successfully crossed and less people drowned. The NGOs are not saving lives, they are encouraging people to risk their lives. Nobody boards those deathtraps on the Libyan coast in the belief that they will be carried by the currents to Europe. They are waiting for an NGO ship to pick them up.

The only ethical position is to stop the people traffickers, criminalise the NGO's working with them and deport those who arrive. It saves lives, and in any case it is in the interests of Europeans which ought to be the primary concern of European governments.

Is it in contention that those in favor of the illegal trafficking across the Mediterranean are anything but immoral?

A significant question is: what is going to happen when the EU backed Government of National Accord in Libya collapses?

Brian? · 19-07-2019 12:47PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Is it in contention that those in favor of the illegal trafficking across the Mediterranean are anything but immoral?

A significant question is: what is going to happen when the EU backed Government of National Accord in Libya collapses?

Who exactly is in favour of illegal trafficking? Is this an accusation against the NGOs saving people from drowning?

Sand · 19-07-2019 07:39PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Is it in contention that those in favor of the illegal trafficking across the Mediterranean are anything but immoral?

A significant question is: what is going to happen when the EU backed Government of National Accord in Libya collapses?

It depends on what replaces it. Its clear the removal of Gaddafi was an immense strategic error by the European states. The GNA is currently threatened by Khalifa Haftar who wishes to re-establish a Libyan dictatorship. If the GNA is incapable of controlling Libyan territory, then perhaps Haftar can. It may be overall beneficial for the EU to see a strong man dictatorship re-established in Libya. Europes primary focus in North Africa is not the establishment of liberal democracy, but the control of mass migration.

Whoever rules Libya can exploit their control of the migrant flow to Europe. Africa's population is going to double to 2.5 billion by 2050 and over 4.5 billion by the end of the century. Even if the vast majority remain in Africa, tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions will attempt to reach the EU and what is perceived as an easy life. Whenever they need leverage over the EU the Libyans can wave through migrants, until they secure whatever tribute they desire from the EU.

Brian? wrote: »

Who exactly is in favour of illegal trafficking? Is this an accusation against the NGOs saving people from drowning?

If NGO's were focused on saving people from drowning they would co-ordinate and co-operate with the Libyan security forces, not the people traffickers. They would return the 'rescued' people to the Libyan coast, not to the Italian coast.

Anyone who backs these NGOs is backing illegal trafficking.

Brian? · 19-07-2019 08:24PM

Sand wrote: »

It depends on what replaces it. Its clear the removal of Gaddafi was an immense strategic error by the European states. The GNA is currently threatened by Khalifa Haftar who wishes to re-establish a Libyan dictatorship. If the GNA is incapable of controlling Libyan territory, then perhaps Haftar can. It may be overall beneficial for the EU to see a strong man dictatorship re-established in Libya. Europes primary focus in North Africa is not the establishment of liberal democracy, but the control of mass migration.

Whoever rules Libya can exploit their control of the migrant flow to Europe. Africa's population is going to double to 2.5 billion by 2050 and over 4.5 billion by the end of the century. Even if the vast majority remain in Africa, tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions will attempt to reach the EU and what is perceived as an easy life. Whenever they need leverage over the EU the Libyans can wave through migrants, until they secure whatever tribute they desire from the EU.

If NGO's were focused on saving people from drowning they would co-ordinate and co-operate with the Libyan security forces, not the people traffickers. They would return the 'rescued' people to the Libyan coast, not to the Italian coast.

Anyone who backs these NGOs is backing illegal trafficking.

The NGOs coordinate with the people traffickers? That's terrible, have you some proof of it?

Migration Megathread

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