A personal horror story of online dating apps.

Pray4Mojo · 25-06-2019 08:08PM #1

Hi,

I’m a openly gay man in my late 20’s and I had an experience with a recent encounter via a gay dating app that I wanted to share.

I was at a small quiet session at my friend’s place in Dublin, I was visiting from a neighboring county. Of course, I was curious as to who was about, so I logged onto a particular gay “dating” app which is infamous for hook ups.

In no time I was messaged by one half of an attractive Latino couple who were married and around my age. He seemed polite and eager for me to meet up at their play in D6 for “fun. He gave me his WhatsApp details after an hour or two of chatting. I was insistent that I would only consider coming over if the pair would allow me to stay. I was supposed to stay at a friend’s house and had nowhere else to crash and had little cash.

My intentions were to have a good night with my mates, but I gave in and made a lame excuse to leave to ditch them. I made my way to the couple’s house around midnight. When I arrived, the pair welcomed me into their flat they seemed cool and we had a normal discussion for a while.

Before starting I started, I told them that I was interested in safe sex only. They showed me a relatively recent screen shot of test results stating neither had an STI but this didn’t convince me and I insisted on using protection. They agreed. Anywho, things went underway towards the end I realised one of them wasn’t wearing a condom. I asked where it was and he said he had taken it off, before I could even say or do anything it was too late as it was "finished".

Their personalities seemed to flip immediately afterwards. They ignored me and just chatted to one another in their native language as though I was non-existant and nothing had happened. Then they told me to leave which I didn’t question so I gladly left and said nothing.

At 3 am I was roaming around the local area deciding where I would sleep. I felt too ashamed to bother my friends and explain so I just ended up staying awake at a 24-hour fast food place about 3km away before catching a bus home the next day.

I’m not here to discuss my actions as I realise that I was beyond foolish. The bottom line is that I was sober and I did not consent to unprotected sex. I don’t see this kind of thing discussed much in the gay community, but I think it should be so I’m highlighting it with my experience. I chose not to name this the particular app as such an event can occur on any dating app as mentioned currently in news headlines.

Thanks for reading.

L1011 · 25-06-2019 08:22PM

How recent is recent? Post-exposure prophylaxis is available for situations such as this

Pray4Mojo · 25-06-2019 08:49PM

L1011 wrote: »

How recent is recent? is available for situations such as this

Yes, cheers I took all the necessary steps afterward. I'm hoping to arouse discussion over consent etc. I'm not looking for personal advice.

25-06-2019 10:50PM

Did you not flip the lid at them? I would have!

antix80 · 26-06-2019 09:24AM

I think taking off the condom is a trick that's as old as the hills for straight or gay people. It's up there with "I'll only put the head of it in". The whole notion of "I consented to this, but not to that #metoo" is being done to death. Maybe some people will be surprised and hopefully they'll take your tale of caution to heart and not log in to hookup apps while they're drinking.

To me, its not the takeaway from your story.

Fact is you didn't know these people, so trust or consent doesn't come into it. You were completely at their mercy once you entered their house. You could have been drugged, raped, robbed, beaten, cut up or whatever they felt like doing. That's for one. Second, there is high prevalence of HIV in gay latino communities and from the behaviour they exhibited you can probably see why.

baby and crumble · 26-06-2019 09:39AM

antix80 wrote: »

Fact is you didn't know these people, so trust or consent doesn't come into it. You were completely at their mercy once you entered their house. You could have been drugged, raped, robbed, beaten, cut up or whatever they felt like doing. That's for one. Second, there is high prevalence of HIV in gay latino communities and from the behaviour they exhibited you can probably see why.

Wow ok so suddenly it's the OP's fault that these guys ignored his permission for sex which was DEPENDENT on their wearing of condoms? FFS.

antix80 · 26-06-2019 09:41AM

Well put it this way, the op is less likely to put himself in that situation again. Maybe others can learn from his experience.

Maybe he was too trusting, or naive.

Jasper79 · 26-06-2019 09:45AM

Pray4Mojo wrote: »

Hi,

. The bottom line is that I was sober and I did not consent to unprotected sex.

.

A man was convicted last year for rape, for doing this:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-jailed-for-rape-after-refusing-to-put-on-a-condom-during-sex-36697498.html

antix80 · 26-06-2019 09:47AM

It happens the whole time. It's ridiculous really.

Pray4Mojo · 26-06-2019 09:54AM

antix80 wrote: »

I think taking off the condom is a trick that's as old as the hills for straight or gay people. It's up there with "I'll only put the head of it in". The whole notion of "I consented to this, but not to that #metoo" is being done to death. Maybe some people will be surprised and hopefully they'll take your tale of caution to heart and not log in to hookup apps while they're drinking.

To me, its not the takeaway from your story.

Fact is you didn't know these people, so trust or consent doesn't come into it. You were completely at their mercy once you entered their house. You could have been drugged, raped, robbed, beaten, cut up or whatever they felt like doing. That's for one. Second, there is high prevalence of HIV in gay latino communities and from the behaviour they exhibited you can probably see why.

So, what you’re saying is that because I didn’t know them, I had no consent? How many gay men do you know have spontaneously gone for a hook up with someone they just met or do not know? They should probably be informed that they could be raped or murdered but it's their fault because they have no consent in the matter. You clearly have no idea of what consent is and need to read up on the subject. I had capacity I was not intoxicated.

There are other STIs than HIV which are higher among Caucasian Irish, how is this relevant? I simply told this "tale" to highlight an issue not to be judged for my actions which I expressed weren't the wisest, but thank you for your input.

antix80 · 26-06-2019 03:37PM

Consent just means you gave permission. Fault just means who is responsible for a bad outcome.

And you're absolutely right. You didn't consent, and he was at fault for his part. And now you're raising awareness not to trust strangers because they may not be honest and they can harm you.

I think we're basically saying the same thing.

isohon · 26-06-2019 10:50PM

antix80 wrote: »

Consent just means you gave permission. Fault just means who is responsible for a bad outcome.

And you're absolutely right. You didn't consent, and he was at fault for his part. And now you're raising awareness not to trust strangers because they may not be honest and they can harm you.

I think we're basically saying the same thing.

Sorry but you can't backpeddle up a waterfall of waste.

Your first comment in this thread is appalling. Its victim blaming and rape apologetics.

Ten of Swords · 26-06-2019 11:03PM

antix80 wrote: »

Fact is you didn't know these people, so trust or consent doesn't come into it. You were completely at their mercy once you entered their house. You could have been drugged, raped, robbed, beaten, cut up or whatever they felt like doing.

Come on, that's the "potential" risk anyone straight or gay runs when they go home with someone for sex, either met at a venue or through an app. Frankly that's a bit of a nonsense argument.

antix80 · 26-06-2019 11:31PM

isohon wrote: »

Sorry but you can't backpeddle up a waterfall of waste.

Your first comment in this thread is appalling. Its victim blaming and rape apologetics.

I'm not backpedalling. Op was a victim of a predator.

I think there's an element of minimisation in the op's post that maybe people are missing. It's presented as a public service announcement, but to me it sounds like the op made the type of error of judgement that predators rely on.

He was already outnumbered 2 to 1. He got bad vibes upon entering. Was it really an option to just walk away at that stage? Not sure if anyone's familiar with "it's always sunny in Philadelphia" but watch the scene about "the implication".

antix80 · 27-06-2019 12:09AM

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Come on, that's the "potential" risk anyone straight or gay runs when they go home with someone for sex, either met at a venue or through an app. Frankly that's a bit of a nonsense argument.

There are ways to reduce risk.

Meet initially in public for one. Predators will want to avoid cctv.
It would also be easier to back out if you have the gut feeling you're being lied to, or the person was using a 10 year old profile picture.
Take prep and have all relevant vaccines.
Be careful with consumption of drink or drugs.
Make sure a friend knows where you are.

Qrt · 27-06-2019 12:14AM

I know the feeling OP and I sympathise. Some fellas in the gay community just really don’t give a **** about anybody else when it comes to hookups, though that can be said for anybody in any community. I didn’t realise how bad it was until I made the decision to stop the “meet now?” type of hookups, now I tend to chat for a while, few days usually, then see how it goes. Has it been a different result? A fair bit, but it depends on the person really. I just figured out I don’t like once-offs, and I prefer to have a few FWB style things going on. It wasn’t until this one fella I know routinely offered me tea before AND after the...act, that I realised it.

Back to the main consent part; there’s been a few times where someone has just “stuck the head in” or just been overly eager to...leave their mark. Anyone who breaches it is an utter tool and many other things.

Pray4Mojo · 27-06-2019 01:05AM

antix80 wrote: »

I'm not backpedalling. Op was a victim of a predator.

I think there's an element of minimisation in the op's post that maybe people are missing. It's presented as a public service announcement, but to me it sounds like the op made the type of error of judgement that predators rely on.

He was already outnumbered 2 to 1. He got bad vibes upon entering. Was it really an option to just walk away at that stage? Not sure if anyone's familiar with "it's always sunny in Philadelphia" but watch the scene about "the implication".

I never got bad vibes on entering I said the two seemed pleasant and held a normal conversation. I would have left at this stage had I any major doubts. They seemed educated, friendly etc.

You can go to any measures to minimise risk but the reality is it’s very difficult to judge someone’s character/intentions. In fact some of the worst offenders can pray on victims over a long period of time.

You’re saying that this situation was invited because I wasn’t cautious enough. If somebody was dating another person and the same thing occurred regarding consent to protected sex what would you say to that? Had they taken all the precautions you listed?

I’m not talking about risk prevention as ideally not everyone should have to go on prep as you suggested, that’s not reasonable . Instead it should be echoed that it’s not okay to do this sort of “trick” as you called it.

The bottom is don’t take a condom off if you are told not to. It’s my body and my wish. That’s all I wanted to convey.

antix80 · 27-06-2019 05:48AM

Pray4Mojo wrote: »

The bottom is don’t take a condom off if you are told not to. It’s my body and my wish. That’s all I wanted to convey.

Wait a minute...

I thought the post was was to serve as a warning to people, "this can happen to you, be careful, learn from my experience." And i basically thought "is the op really that naive, of course it could happen- it's one of the many risks of a hookup."

But from what you're now saying, it's basically a plea to people not to remove the condom after agreeing to wear one.

And sorry but that just comes across as more naive. As i keep saying, the notion of consent (fancy word for permission) doesn't apply to criminals/predators.

Let's say a guy approached you on the street begging for the price of a soup. You'd just been to the bank and take out a wad of cash. "Here my friend, take €5 from this large pile of cash while I turn my back and feel good about myself."

Would you take to the internet talking about consent if the opportunist took more than you intended? Would people who commented on your naivity be lectured for victim blaming?

I respect your original post. You had a bad experience and it's good to talk about it. But its utility as a public service announcement is lacking. I'll leave it at that.

Best of luck op. Hope all's well and you don't have bad experiences in future.

dvdman1 · 27-06-2019 06:09AM

You have been wronged and you should report this to the garda asap. these 2 guys are certainly likely to do this again, help the next victim by filing a report, dont just let this lie

JupiterKid · 27-06-2019 06:16AM

OP something like this happened to me about a year back.

I met a guy on a hookup app, we met up (over in his place always) and had sex a few times with protection. Then on one occasion he suggested we didn’t and - completely sober but full of hormones - I consented and only afterward he told me he was “HIV+ undetectable”. I was too shocked to react then and there and made my excuses and left.

Ended up taking PeP and notifying the Gardai. Sadly there are a lot of very selfish and reckless gay men out there who will put others at risk for their own pleasure. You live and learn.

osarusan · 27-06-2019 06:42AM

Consent can be contingent on certain conditions, and breaking that can vitiate consent.

This is 'stealthing' and likely meets the description of sexual assault or rape, should you which to go down that road.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/20/health/stealthing-germany-sexual-assault-scli-intl/index.html

Of course, proving that the condom was deliberately and surreptitiously removed would be difficult.

JustAThought · 27-06-2019 06:45AM

It is a personal horror story but the blame is on the behaviours and individuals involved not the app.

antix80 · 27-06-2019 07:52AM

osarusan wrote: »

Consent can be contingent on certain conditions, and breaking that can vitiate consent.

I'll have sex with you on the basis you text me the next day and invite me to see toy story 4.
Please don't vitiate my sacred consent. It's a serious matter and I'll have to report you to the gardai.

Real life is a bit more complicated.

Jasper79 · 27-06-2019 07:55AM

antix80 wrote: »

I'll have sex with you on the basis you text me the next day and invite me to see toy story 4.
Please don't vitiate my sacred consent. It's a serious matter and I'll have to report you to the gardai.

Real life is a bit more complicated.

Not really when it comes to this, real life, removing a condom when asked not to is legally considered rape:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-36697498.html

osarusan · 27-06-2019 08:10AM

antix80 wrote: »

I'll have sex with you on the basis you text me the next day and invite me to see toy story 4.
Please don't vitiate my sacred consent. It's a serious matter and I'll have to report you to the gardai.

Real life is a bit more complicated.

Consent gained through deception as to the nature of the sex (agreement to have protected sex only, agreement to ejaculate outside the body only) can be considered vitiated when those agreements are broken.

You can strawman on about irrelevant stuff like toy story 4 all you like, but it doesn't change what the laws are.

Qrt · 27-06-2019 08:16AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

OP something like this happened to me about a year back.

I met a guy on a hookup app, we met up (over in his place always) and had sex a few times with protection. Then on one occasion he suggested we didn’t and - completely sober but full of hormones - I consented and only afterward he told me he was “HIV+ undetectable”. I was too shocked to react then and there and made my excuses and left.

Ended up taking PeP and notifying the Gardai. Sadly there are a lot of very selfish and reckless gay men out there who will put others at risk for their own pleasure. You live and learn.

He should have told you from a decency point of view, but provided he actually was undetectable, then the chance of contracting HIV is... nonexistent.

antix80 · 27-06-2019 08:18AM

I was only being half serious. But then you've got some jurisdictions saying it's not a criminal offence if someone lies about their hiv status despite consent being dependent on it. So my example's not that silly.

As for deception. What if someone says they're single, but are actually married and lie about it - and their potential partner only consents on the basis that the person is single.
Or a man is sleeping around but their longterm partner was very clear - partner only consents to sex on the basis they're not being cheated on.

Very hard to prove either way. Back to op's case - the word of 2 against one. Miscommunication due to language barrier. Consent doesn't mean much in a case like that. Just comes down to being more careful who you trust.

osarusan · 27-06-2019 08:45AM

antix80 wrote: »

As for deception. What if someone says they're single, but are actually married and lie about it - and their potential partner only consents on the basis that the person is single.
Or a man is sleeping around but their longterm partner was very clear - partner only consents to sex on the basis they're not being cheated on.

This is deception of a different kind - deception regarding identity.

If somebody lies about being a millionaire or a rock star or being single, or being a fellow cat-lover or Capricorn, they very likely haven't broken the law.* Deception about identity is limited to a very narrow definition.

But this isn't deception about identity, it's deception about the nature of the sex itself. Consent to sex can be conditional on the nature of the sex, what is and is not allowed and so on, and not meeting those conditions can be breaking the law.

*There was one highly publicised and criticised case in Israel in which a man pretended to be a Jew in order to get to sleep with a woman, and who was convicted of rape through deception.

isohon · 27-06-2019 05:28PM

antix80 wrote: »

I was only being half serious. But then you've got some jurisdictions saying it's not a criminal offence if someone lies about their hiv status despite consent being dependent on it. So my example's not that silly.

As for deception. What if someone says they're single, but are actually married and lie about it - and their potential partner only consents on the basis that the person is single.
Or a man is sleeping around but their longterm partner was very clear - partner only consents to sex on the basis they're not being cheated on.

Very hard to prove either way. Back to op's case - the word of 2 against one. Miscommunication due to language barrier. Consent doesn't mean much in a case like that. Just comes down to being more careful who you trust.

To penetrate an individual without a condom, against the express wishes of that individual, is rape. This is a matter of law, and we do not need to talk about other jurisdictions:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-jailed-for-rape-after-refusing-to-put-on-a-condom-during-sex-36697498.html

Everything else you have posited in this thread is victim playing, minimization and rape apologetics. Followed by pretty standard deflections about it being 'his word vs' and difficult to prove.

antix80 · 27-06-2019 05:45PM

isohon wrote: »

Followed by pretty standard deflections about it being 'his word vs' and difficult to prove.

Oh yea, textbook case

isohon · 27-06-2019 05:48PM

antix80 wrote: »

Oh yea, textbook case

I'm note sure what point you are making above?

A personal horror story of online dating apps.

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