Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

SirGerryAdams · 25-06-2019 07:16AM

The timeline of Boy Bs arrest and charge is a bit blurry.

When did they collect dna samples from him? Did they check the clothes?

Is it possible any DNA he had on him was cleaned away by putting it in the wash?

SirGerryAdams · 25-06-2019 07:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is one aspect I find worrying and support anonymity. I have sympathy for the parents. For all we know, the boys lied to the parents too. I imagine it's a very traumatic situation for everyone involved. What would you do if this was your child. Do you think you would definitely act entirely objective or would some parental emotions override and blind you until the evidence slowly presents the truth. If your child continues tells you they're innocent, do you believe them. Will you be in denial. I'm not a parent so I don't fully understand these instincts but I've certainly seen them in action. I don't think people recognising the parents in the street is of benefit to anyone. While I wouldn't go as far as to say they deserve the same respect as the Kriegal's, they don't deserve abuse.

Don't have a kid in that situation but I'd like to think I'd want the truth no matter how bad it was.

Would you really want to get away with the thought in your head that your son is a murderer lingering?

gozunda · 25-06-2019 07:30AM

tuxy wrote: »

From that article
It's not that I don't agree with what they are trying to achieve, it's that I believe it's an impossible task.

Few things are absolutely foolproof imo. For adults it shouldn't be a problem. For children and teenagers it's going to make things more difficult. Parents still should be responsible one way or the other.

25-06-2019 07:51AM

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Don't have a kid in that situation but I'd like to think I'd want the truth no matter how bad it was.

Would you really want to get away with the thought in your head that your son is a murderer lingering?

In my current state of mind, yes I'd absolutely want the truth and justice for all. But I'm currently relaxing by a pool without a care in the world.

What I'm suggesting is that if this your own child, there's a good chance you won't be thinking straight at all. People tend to be very biased towards their own children.

SirGerryAdams · 25-06-2019 08:14AM

Deleted User wrote: »

In my current state of mind, yes I'd absolutely want the truth and justice for all. But I'm currently relaxing by a pool without a care in the world.

What I'm suggesting is that if this your own child, there's a good chance you won't be thinking straight at all. People tend to be very biased towards their own children.

I could understand in the immediate aftermath, but a year later? Imagine all the discussions with family members, discussions with the kid themselves.

Even in the days after her going missing, I'd be reallllly worried the son was involved while she was still a missing person.

A story that didn't match up with Boy B? Randomly attacked by two adult men who he managed to kick in the head?

Adrift · 25-06-2019 09:14AM

"If your child continues tells you they're innocent, do you believe them. Will you be in denial. I'm not a parent so I don't fully understand these instincts but I've certainly seen them in action. I don't think people recognising the parents in the street is of benefit to anyone. While I wouldn't go as far as to say they deserve the same respect as the Kriegal's, they don't deserve abuse. "

I've zero sympathy for them.

Just reading the transcripts will tell you the lads were full of shi&, and you don't need to be a parent to see that. So the parents are just as bad in my book. I was brought up to tell the truth, it didn't always happen but you learned over the years that if you made an admission that softened the blow, it's a simple lesson really but your parents have to be arsed bringing you up correctly in the first place. Boy B's dads performance in court is all too indicitive of how parenting is done these days. "Not my little Johnny, he'd never do anything like that" Having kids of my own I hear it all the time, Parents who definitely take the hands off, whatever keeps them quiet and I don't care what they're doing al long as it's not interfering with what I'm doing approach.

Neyite · 25-06-2019 09:16AM

If unofficial reports are true that they were known bullies prior to Ana's murder then it's probable that parents and teachers had a few chats about them targeting other children. And if you have parents who defend and excuse the little stuff, go in guns blazing to tear strips off a teacher on behalf of their little angels, it's not a stretch to assume those kids get braver and more arrogant that they can get away with more and more daring forms of bullying. Mam and Dad will go tell that principal to fcuk off like all the other times, right?

I'm not saying it specifically happened with these boys, but we can see from the way the parents washed evidence /court outbursts that it's possible.

But they didn't yet have the knowledge and experience that comes with adulthood. They don't have the logical brains of adults yet. So by their 13yo logic, they figure the lies they tell about their actions with Ana would also be believed and even defended by mam and dad - especially in boy B's case . But lying to Gardai is a very different ball game to lying to your parents or your teachers.

IvoryTower · 25-06-2019 09:23AM

We should probably stick to the official reports to be honest, otherwise its all just gossip. It might be interesting but it might not be true

Ash.J.Williams · 25-06-2019 09:26AM

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

I could understand in the immediate aftermath, but a year later? Imagine all the discussions with family members, discussions with the kid themselves.

Even in the days after her going missing, I'd be reallllly worried the son was involved while she was still a missing person.

A story that didn't match up with Boy B? Randomly attacked by two adult men who he managed to kick in the head?

that's not the first time i've heard of a made up attack in which the "victim" said he got the last dig in...it seems to raise immediate suspicion

Ash.J.Williams · 25-06-2019 09:31AM

Reati wrote: »

He was 13 and thought he was more clever than the Gardaí interviewing him? Everyone been saying how supposedly smart he was... maybe he believed it.

it might tie in with the new garda training, build up his confidence and then let him talk away and implicate himself.

splinter65 · 25-06-2019 09:32AM

Reati wrote: »

He was 13 and thought he was more clever than the Gardaí interviewing him? Everyone been saying how supposedly smart he was... maybe he believed it.

If you’ve ever threatened a bunch of misbehaving anti social kids with calling the Garda you’ll be very quickly told, “they can’t touch me!”. I think boy b did think that if the worst came to the worst and he was implicated, that his youth would go in his favor and he would get a slap on the wrist in the Garda station and that would be the end of it.

LiamoSail · 25-06-2019 10:10AM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is one aspect I find worrying and support anonymity. I have sympathy for the parents. For all we know, the boys lied to the parents too. I imagine it's a very traumatic situation for everyone involved. What would you do if this was your child. Do you think you would definitely act entirely objective or would some parental emotions override and blind you until the evidence slowly presents the truth. If your child continues tells you they're innocent, do you believe them. Will you be in denial. I'm not a parent so I don't fully understand these instincts but I've certainly seen them in action. I don't think people recognising the parents in the street is of benefit to anyone. While I wouldn't go as far as to say they deserve the same respect as the Kriegal's, they don't deserve abuse.

Its a year since the murder and their child has since given 10 different accounts of what happened, each of which is contradicted by evidence.

If they had an ounce of decency, they'd get their child to tell the truth. Even if they believe their child to be innocent, they know that he hasn't been truthful. Horrific as it would be for any family to go through what they have, any sympathy is lost as long as they continue to facilitate their child's attempt to cover up a murder.

gozunda · 25-06-2019 10:20AM

splinter65 wrote: »

If you’ve ever threatened a bunch of misbehaving anti social kids with calling the Garda you’ll be very quickly told, “they can’t touch me!”. I think boy b did think that if the worst came to the worst and he was implicated, that his youth would go in his favor and he would get a slap on the wrist in the Garda station and that would be the end of it.

The other thing that stuck out was his father claiming he was immature and as an example liked Japanese cartoons such as anime

Now I dont know if the father is somewhat clueless or was attempting to paint his son as someone who wouldn't get involved in this kind of thing - but anime has various genres which include extreme violence and porn. Not stuff I would dismiss as always being innocent or harmless tbh.

briany · 25-06-2019 10:26AM

fash wrote: »

Nonsense: the Gardai will always look for all evidence. What you are suggesting is that they deliberately endanger convictions on the basis of "yerra, that's good enough".
Do you honestly think the Gardai wouldn't have preferred to have additional forensic evidence linking boy B to the scene? Do you honestly think they didn't do everything they could to look for it?

We don't yet know the full methodologies of the Gardaí in relation to this case or the extent of the evidence collected on both suspects. My point was that if Boy B had not talked, he'd have had to damn well hope that Gardaí had not been able to find anything physically linking him to the scene of the actual murder.

The best response is always to shut the **** up and ask for your lawyer. https://youtu.be/JTurSi0LhJs

The best response in the opinion of the general law-abiding public was that he talked.

You are assuming he is not a psychopath.

Yes, and I'll assume that until a more in-depth psychological profile of Boy B is released.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-06-2019 10:35AM

Neyite wrote: »

If unofficial reports are true that they were known bullies prior to Ana's murder then it's probable that parents and teachers had a few chats about them targeting other children. And if you have parents who defend and excuse the little stuff, go in guns blazing to tear strips off a teacher on behalf of their little angels, it's not a stretch to assume those kids get braver and more arrogant that they can get away with more and more daring forms of bullying. Mam and Dad will go tell that principal to fcuk off like all the other times, right?

I'm not saying it specifically happened with these boys, but we can see from the way the parents washed evidence /court outbursts that it's possible.

But they didn't yet have the knowledge and experience that comes with adulthood. They don't have the logical brains of adults yet. So by their 13yo logic, they figure the lies they tell about their actions with Ana would also be believed and even defended by mam and dad - especially in boy B's case . But lying to Gardai is a very different ball game to lying to your parents or your teachers.

This is why its in the public interest to name them or at least allow the school to be named.

the butcher · 25-06-2019 10:55AM

ziedth wrote: »

Makes me wonder when the next murder comes are they going to try this tactic and take something like a tactic of "No, I refuse to answer, you prove I was involved anything from now will be answered no comment"

It happens with seasoned/veteran criminals. But with this case being so high profile and with many young people reading about it and how Gardai conduct interviews - makes me wonder how beneficial it is for the general public to know the fine details.

Grayson · 25-06-2019 10:58AM

Neyite wrote: »

If unofficial reports are true that they were known bullies prior to Ana's murder then it's probable that parents and teachers had a few chats about them targeting other children. And if you have parents who defend and excuse the little stuff, go in guns blazing to tear strips off a teacher on behalf of their little angels, it's not a stretch to assume those kids get braver and more arrogant that they can get away with more and more daring forms of bullying. Mam and Dad will go tell that principal to fcuk off like all the other times, right?

I'm not saying it specifically happened with these boys, but we can see from the way the parents washed evidence /court outbursts that it's possible.

But they didn't yet have the knowledge and experience that comes with adulthood. They don't have the logical brains of adults yet. So by their 13yo logic, they figure the lies they tell about their actions with Ana would also be believed and even defended by mam and dad - especially in boy B's case . But lying to Gardai is a very different ball game to lying to your parents or your teachers.

It sounds like half the class was bullying Ana. I don't think we can take anything away from the fact that they were and it led to something.
If we take anything away from it it's that we need a bigger campaign against bullying and kids need to be taught more about this from a younger age.

Suckit · 25-06-2019 10:59AM

I have said it before, but I believe the only reason Boy B spoke, was because when he was first asked to go to the station by the Garda (good work on their behalf btw), he and his mother were of the belief that it was to give a statement of where he last saw Ana.
He didn't realise it would come back and bit him in the ass so hard.
It may also explain why Boy A never really opened his mouth other than to stick to his story, even when he was presented with DNA evidence on his boots.
Two of the rules in Boy B's 'satanic pledge' book were "Don't talk about it" and "Act normal like nothing happened".
Those rules may not have meant anything to anybody else, but he wrote them and I'd bet had some sort of belief in them.

If those boys get out in their early 20's (or sooner) I hope they are watched like hawks and never given the benefit of doubt if anything serious should ever happen near to them.
I think they have learned some things about crime evasion that they will not repeat if they commit a crime again. Namely using phones, leaving DNA and talking to the investigators. No doubt they have learned a lot more and are taking it all in.

the butcher · 25-06-2019 11:10AM

Why did boy A look up 'abandoned places in Lucan' on his phone if this was a place "frequently visited by kids/teens" according to a select few posters on this thread? I've been to the park in question, in my youthful years it was never a place known to my friends or anyone else. Teens/kids want convenient places to go, not treks of 3km, especially from the directions they were coming from.

For people asking in previous pages, there seems to be no evidence recovered concerning the backpack of Boy B (see on CCTV footage), no evidence of his clothing of that day or shoes/smartphone/contents of missing backpack. Only thing is the tape he supplied Boy A.

Boy B had nothing but disdainful things to say bout Ana in his interviews - all said knowing that she was dead and killed in a brutal fashion. No remorse, no guilt, no sadness, nothing. Just displays of boredom during the interview breaks. Knew she was dead for days and continually lied to everyone since she went "missing". The jury sat through 16 hours of footage on him. They know more than anyone on here. Justice has been served by the jury, it's up the judge and his sentencing now.

El_Bee · 25-06-2019 11:12AM

Grayson wrote: »

It sounds like half the class was bullying Ana. I don't think we can take anything away from the fact that they were and it led to something.
If we take anything away from it it's that we need a bigger campaign against bullying and kids need to be taught more about this from a younger age.

We have non-stop anti-bullying campaigns for decades now, and children are still committing suicide in relation to the bullying they receive, it's no big leap to correlate the continued rise in bullying with the inability to expel or even suspend bullies from schools.

Yurt2 · 25-06-2019 11:15AM

Grayson wrote: »

It sounds like half the class was bullying Ana. I don't think we can take anything away from the fact that they were and it led to something.
If we take anything away from it it's that we need a bigger campaign against bullying and kids need to be taught more about this from a younger age.

100% on the bullying anti-bullying campaign. It should be a national campaign bringing in adults into the conversation about workplace bullying also.

It breaks my heart to think that the poor girl was trying to survive a day-in day-out grind with bullying before this happened.

I don't know it to be the case at all, but I suspect Ireland has more bullying in it's culture than other nations. It's a pastime to devalue other people - you hear it in the pub, in the breakroom, the gym: 'this f*cking eejit, that f*cking tool, the state of him and his jumper.' It's like for people to feel good about themselves they need to run others down. A nation with individual and mass low self esteem lashing out at anyone and anything different. I spend a lot of my time out of the country with work thankfully, and it's a refreshing mental break to be honest.

mrjoneill · 25-06-2019 11:33AM

the butcher wrote: »

Why did boy A look up 'abandoned places in Lucan' on his phone if this was a place "frequently visited by kids/teens" according to a select few posters on this thread? I've been to the park in question, in my youthful years it was never a place known to my friends or anyone else. Teens/kids want convenient places to go, not treks of 3km, especially from the directions they were coming from.

For people asking in previous pages, there seems to be no evidence recovered concerning the backpack of Boy B (see on CCTV footage), no evidence of his clothing of that day or shoes/smartphone/contents of missing backpack. Only thing is the tape he supplied Boy A.

Boy B had nothing but disdainful things to say bout Ana in his interviews - all said knowing that she was dead and killed in a brutal fashion. No remorse, no guilt, no sadness, nothing. Just displays of boredom during the interview breaks. Knew she was dead for days and continually lied to everyone since she went "missing". The jury sat through 16 hours of footage on him. They know more than anyone on here. Justice has been served by the jury, it's up the judge and his sentencing now.

All 3 were from Leixlip and Lucan was 3km away. The abandoned house was 3km from Lexlip across the fields of St Catherines Park just outside Lucan. The building is not a place where Lexlip kids would be hanging out it would be more for Lucan ones. This was summer time and there would be no need for kids to be indoors so it would have been predictable the house would be empty when they went there.

As for Boy B, CCTV shows him carrying a backback as do witnesses. When asked what was in it he stated a bottle of water. Yet on his return home after the murdering of Ana he stated he went to the Park Rangers hut to drink water from the tap. It doesn't make sense. Kids don't bring a whole backpack to carry a bottle of water either. Everything from Boy B has been elicited after being found out. There can be only one reason to tell lies and so many is he is covering up his own culpability.

tuxy · 25-06-2019 11:34AM

the butcher wrote: »

, no evidence of his clothing of that day or shoes/smartphone/contents of missing backpack. Only thing is the tape he supplied Boy A.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/ana-was-struck-with-weapon-as-she-lay-on-the-floor-blood-pattern-specialist-tells-trial-38113234.html

Earlier, Detective Garda Gabriel Newton gave evidence of collecting the clothing which Boy A and Boy B were wearing on the day Ana went missing.

Things that have no impact on the case tend to get reported less it does not mean it didn't happen.

mrjoneill · 25-06-2019 11:39AM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

This is why its in the public interest to name them or at least allow the school to be named.

The school was named in earlier newspaper reports and the school web page had an appreciation for Ana. I would not take a genius to work out what school it from the location of the crime.

Suckit · 25-06-2019 11:46AM

tuxy wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/ana-was-struck-with-weapon-as-she-lay-on-the-floor-blood-pattern-specialist-tells-trial-38113234.html

Things that have no impact on the case tend to get reported less it does not mean it didn't happen.

His backpack was never handed over.

Boy B was in the kitchen when his mother handed over his clothes, the court heard.
These clothes, consisting of a pair of blue runners, a grey hoodie, black bottoms and a white polo T-shirt with a navy collar, were also shown to the jury.
Det Gda Newton said she then handed the two boys clothes to the exhibits officer in the case.

Boy B had a Black Backpack and Boy A had a Khaki Backpack.

tuxy · 25-06-2019 11:53AM

Suckit wrote: »

His backpack was never handed over.

Boy B had a Black Backpack and Boy A had a Khaki Backpack.

That same story also does not state that boy A's backpack was found yet we know it was when they searched his house.
Where was it stated that Boy B's backpack was never recovered?

TCDStudent1 · 25-06-2019 11:58AM

tuxy wrote: »

That same story also does not state that boy A's backpack was found yet we know it was when they searched his house.
Where was it stated that Boy B's backpack was never recovered?

I read in one article (possibly in Sunday Independent) that Boy B said he carried the back pack just as a place to hold a bottle of water.
This raised some questions for the guards as he said he went to a water station to get a drink of water.

tuxy · 25-06-2019 12:01PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I read in one article (possibly in Sunday Independent) that Boy B said he carried the back pack just as a place to hold a bottle of water.
This raised some questions for the guards as he said he went to a water station to get a drink of water.

I read that too but what happened when they tried to recover that backpack?
If nothing was found when it was tested the papers may not bother to report it.

hawkelady · 25-06-2019 12:07PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is one aspect I find worrying and support anonymity. I have sympathy for the parents. For all we know, the boys lied to the parents too. I imagine it's a very traumatic situation for everyone involved. What would you do if this was your child. Do you think you would definitely act entirely objective or would some parental emotions override and blind you until the evidence slowly presents the truth. If your child continues tells you they're innocent, do you believe them. Will you be in denial. I'm not a parent so I don't fully understand these instincts but I've certainly seen them in action. I don't think people recognising the parents in the street is of benefit to anyone. While I wouldn't go as far as to say they deserve the same respect as the Kriegal's, they don't deserve abuse.

As a parent , I make sure the son I raised would tell the truth !!! Those parents didn’t , and as such , they have failed as parents

gozunda · 25-06-2019 12:12PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I read in one article (possibly in Sunday Independent) that Boy B said he carried the back pack just as a place to hold a bottle of water.
This raised some questions for the guards as he said he went to a water station to get a drink of water.

Is it possible that boy B used his backback to carry a change of clothes and the clothes he came home in / the ones handed over were not the ones he wore at the scene of the crime. Speculation I know but it would explain at least some of the inconsistencies with regard to why he brought a back back with him that day. One black backpack as seen on CCTV could easily be swapped for another...

It would also make him also more forensicly aware than his friend if that was the case...

Would there have been an opportunity to get rid of a backpack and clothes after leaving the abandoned house?

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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