Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Suckit · 22-06-2019 04:12PM

Lego isn't just a toy. Lego could be how he concentrates or to keep himself calm.
Some lego models can be very complex. It could also be a sign of his intellect.

El_Bee · 22-06-2019 04:16PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Sorry but I live in Dublin and there are plenty of good , decent normal kids in Dublin . We are not all feral or wild

Can we swap houses?

22-06-2019 04:16PM

Some seriously disturbing things in this thread. I can see why anonymity is afforded.

Boggles · 22-06-2019 04:25PM

tayto lover wrote: »

All parents of children in Oberstown get free taxis to visit them. Paid by us.

Really?

I'll need to see some sort of evidence before I get angry at this.

Have you any?

tayto lover · 22-06-2019 04:26PM

Boggles wrote: »

Really?

I'll need to see some sort of evidence before I get angry at this.

Have you any?

Told by person who works there.

El_Bee · 22-06-2019 04:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Some seriously disturbing things in this thread. I can see why anonymity is afforded.

Why are you in their corner? Or do you just like rubbing people the wrong way?

MrFresh · 22-06-2019 04:41PM

BloodBath wrote: »

You are incredibly naive if you think these animals can be rehabilitated and integrate back into society. Maybe they can move in with you.

Well, the fact of the matter is these two guys will probably be out in their twenties. This is the actual state of affairs. Whether you think that is right or not is irrelevant. It is what it is. Now, when they are released, do you think they are more likely to commit another crime if they have been isolated, beaten, mistreated etc or if they have an education, years of therapy and transferable skills.

Boggles · 22-06-2019 04:49PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Told by person who works there.

Oh right.

I'll hold the outrage so.

El_Bee · 22-06-2019 04:51PM

MrFresh wrote: »

Well, the fact of the matter is these two guys will probably be out in their twenties. This is the actual state of affairs. Whether you think that is right or not is irrelevant. It is what it is. Now, when they are released, do you think they are more likely to commit another crime if they have been isolated, beaten, mistreated etc or if they have an education, years of therapy and transferable skills.

I wish the details of the rehabilitation of Thompson & Venables (the Bulger Case in England) were published, did they received the exact same treatment? As it stands we just don't know why one is seemingly rehabilitated and one clearly isn't.

tayto lover · 22-06-2019 04:52PM

Boggles wrote: »

Oh right.

I'll hold the outrage so.

Do whatever you like.

The Specialist · 22-06-2019 04:58PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some seriously disturbing things in this thread. I can see why anonymity is afforded.

The only disturbing thing is what those 2 ****ing scumbags did to this innocent girl. Save your sympathy for her and her family, these animals deserve nothing but death.

MrFresh · 22-06-2019 05:00PM

El_Bee wrote: »

I wish the details of the rehabilitation of Thompson & Venables (the Bulger Case in England) were published, did they received the exact same treatment? As it stands we just don't know why one is seemingly rehabilitated and one clearly isn't.

Interesting parallel. If I recall, the boys were similar in their psychology. One was immature and not as intelligent. The other one was stoic and showed no remorse. He seemed more like Boy B. Venables was the first one and has reoffended multiple times. He has also revealed his own identity to people. He is a complete mess. We know nothing of Thompson. So did rehabilitation work or did he just learn how to commit crimes without being caught?

El_Bee · 22-06-2019 05:06PM

MrFresh wrote: »

Interesting parallel. If I recall, the boys were similar in their psychology. One was immature and not as intelligent. The other one was stoic and showed no remorse. He seemed more like Boy B. Venables was the first one and has reoffended multiple times. He has also revealed his own identity to people. He is a complete mess. We know nothing of Thompson. So did rehabilitation work or did he just learn how to commit crimes without being caught?

I'm sure they were held in separate facilities, so there could have been a difference in the treatment they received, or they could have received the same treatment, and some people are just incapable of rehabilitation.

Sardonicat · 22-06-2019 05:09PM

El_Bee wrote: »

I wish the details of the rehabilitation of Thompson & Venables (the Bulger Case in England) were published, did they received the exact same treatment? As it stands we just don't know why one is seemingly rehabilitated and one clearly isn't.

Venables woukd never engage in any meaningful way. Would never discuss the murder of James nevermind acknowledge his role in it. Thompson did.

In their case it really does seem to be divided evenly between nature and nurture. Thompson (and please, before anyone attacks me for defending what he did in any way, because I'm not! ) came from a background of mind boggling daily physical abuse to the degree that it had become normalised and obviously had damaged him to the degree that he did what he did. What's really disturbing in relation to his background is that Social Services KNEW what he and his younger sibling were being subjected to. They KNEW that he was already starting to externalise and show signs of deeply disturbing behaviour yet he was left in that situation with little to no intervention. In his case, the intervention he received while detained seems to have worked. I still think he should have served a number of years in an adult prison.

Venables? Born that way, I think. Throw away the key.

At the time of the murder investigation the Detectives believed that Thompson was the ringleader who lead Venables on. In light of how differently the two have turned out I've come across interviews with some of the Detectives who have since changed their minds on that one.

Boggles · 22-06-2019 05:17PM

El_Bee wrote: »

I'm sure they were held in separate facilities, so there could have been a difference in the treatment they received, or they could have received the same treatment, and some people are just incapable of rehabilitation.

There was a serious review commissioned into Venables.

He was fine inside and responded better than expectations into treatment.

It was when he got out and had to deal with a new identity is one of the reasons he struggled, he was in constant fear he would be outed and murdered and became dependent on drugs and drink.

Like everything there is no black and white, but I would agree some people can't be rehabilitated, that doesn't mean as a society you don't try.

Kidchameleon · 22-06-2019 06:30PM

The Specialist wrote: »

The only disturbing thing is what those 2 ****ing scumbags did to this innocent girl. Save your sympathy for her and her family, these animals deserve nothing but death.

FFS, they are children, show some class.

The Specialist · 22-06-2019 06:32PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

FFS, they are children, show some class.

They stopped being children when they committed this act, nothing but vermin now that should be put down.

FFred · 22-06-2019 06:34PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

FFS, they are children, show some class.

Yes they are children. Scummy, filthy, nasty, foul children.

Boggles · 22-06-2019 06:34PM

The Specialist wrote: »

They stopped being children when they committed this act, nothing but vermin now that should be put down.

Let me guess you are keen gamer?

The Specialist · 22-06-2019 06:36PM

Boggles wrote: »

Let me guess you are keen gamer?

And? My interests have nothing to do with my opinion on these 2 scumbags.

Boggles · 22-06-2019 06:53PM

The Specialist wrote: »

And? My interests have nothing to do with my opinion on these 2 scumbags.

Oh you are?

I was joking in reference to people who blame video games on violence.

Anyway I'm pretty certain you are not a psychopath, I mean when you talk about personally executing children by hanging them from trees, that's you just showing off a bit, isn't it? Trying to be E-Hard to impress the boys?

Being a bit of an Edge Lord, correct?

Now if you were a close relative and you enacted some spur of the moment violence on them, that I would understand.

But you are not are you? You are just random guy on the internet that plays video games talking shít about executing children in a case that has absolutely nothing to do with you. Let me know if I left anything out.

The Specialist · 22-06-2019 06:56PM

Boggles wrote: »

Oh you are?

I was joking in reference to people who blame video games on violence.

Anyway I'm pretty certain you are not a psychopath, I mean when you talk about personally executing children by hanging them from trees, that's you just showing off a bit, isn't it? Trying to be E-Hard to impress the boys?

Being a bit of an Edge Lord, correct?

Now if you were a close relative and you enacted some spur of the moment violence on them, that I would understand.

But you are not are you, you are just random guy on the internet that plays video games talking shít about executing children. Let me know if I left anything out.

The naivety is strong in this one. Stop referring to them as children you absolute gob****e, children don’t go out and viciously murder a young girl then spin a web of lies to cover themselves.

Boggles · 22-06-2019 06:59PM

The Specialist wrote: »

The naivety is strong in this one. Stop referring to them as children you absolute gob****e, children don’t go out and viciously murder a young girl then spin a web of lies to cover themselves.

Of course they do, this case is pretty recent proof.

It is rare though.

Ken. · 22-06-2019 07:00PM

Mod-Boggles do not post in this thread again. Reason-Uncivil to others.

MrFresh · 22-06-2019 07:07PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

Venables woukd never engage in any meaningful way. Would never discuss the murder of James nevermind acknowledge his role in it. Thompson did.

In their case it really does seem to be divided evenly between nature and nurture. Thompson (and please, before anyone attacks me for defending what he did in any way, because I'm not! ) came from a background of mind boggling daily physical abuse to the degree that it had become normalised and obviously had damaged him to the degree that he did what he did. What's really disturbing in relation to his background is that Social Services KNEW what he and his younger sibling were being subjected to. They KNEW that he was already starting to externalise and show signs of deeply disturbing behaviour yet he was left in that situation with little to no intervention. In his case, the intervention he received while detained seems to have worked. I still think he should have served a number of years in an adult prison.

Venables? Born that way, I think. Throw away the key.

At the time of the murder investigation the Detectives believed that Thompson was the ringleader who lead Venables on. In light of how differently the two have turned out I've come across interviews with some of the Detectives who have since changed their minds on that one.

I think it was the other way around. Venables cried every day of the trial and asked that the little boy's mother be told he was sorry.

mrjoneill · 22-06-2019 07:16PM

spurious wrote: »

Does the law not say the sentences get reviewed at 18? I thought I read that somewhere.

No, but cant be moved to prison till that age. Its up to the sentencing judge when he want them back for review if they so require. Trial judge can just impose a sentence and walk away.

volchitsa · 22-06-2019 07:19PM

MrFresh wrote: »

Interesting parallel. If I recall, the boys were similar in their psychology. One was immature and not as intelligent. The other one was stoic and showed no remorse. He seemed more like Boy B. Venables was the first one and has reoffended multiple times. He has also revealed his own identity to people. He is a complete mess. We know nothing of Thompson. So did rehabilitation work or did he just learn how to commit crimes without being caught?

No I don't think that's a good description of what happened - one of the boys, Robert Thompson, was rather like boy A in that he wouldn't cooperate during the trial, he was from a dysfunctional family and there were suggestions that he had himself been abused. the other boy, Jon Venables, was from a "good" middle class family and was described as naive and easily led. He's the one who was later diagnosed as suffered from PTSD.

At the time, the psychologists went with that view, and believed that Thompson was the leader and Venables had followed, possibly partly out of fear of Thompson who was a much tougher-looking cookie.

Hndsight of course suggests something very different. Thompson is said to feel very guilty because he says that his crime saved him from a horrendous environment and gave him a good education. He's never been in trouble since.

Venables, on the other hand....

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying that boy A is therefore like Thompson, I'm not. I don't think the two pairs of boys need to have the same dynamic going on between them for one thing. But I do think we need to be very careful about assuming that boy B is less guilty than A.)

volchitsa · 22-06-2019 07:26PM

MrFresh wrote: »

I think it was the other way around. Venables cried every day of the trial and asked that the little boy's mother be told he was sorry.

Yes, and the psychologists believed that he was genuinely remorseful, and as you said that he responded well to treatment. I suspect he was manipulating them all the time.

tayto lover · 22-06-2019 07:40PM

Psychologists believe any auld Shyte.

jobbridge4life · 22-06-2019 07:49PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes, and the psychologists believed that he was genuinely remorseful, and as you said that he responded well to treatment. I suspect he was manipulating them all the time.

At a certain point responsibility surely extends beyond the mere ignorant to those who permit the amplification of dangerous fantasies? If one ran a local paper and printed the ill informed ramblings of armchair detectives one'd be swiftly enough dealt with.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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