Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

IontachSpraoi · 20-06-2019 11:54PM

STB. wrote: »

An artist impression of a courtroom scene identify nobody from the back of their heads. I would imagine the artist impression only achieved one thing, to add to the disbelief that yes they were 13 etc.

When you get your first passport you will experience the reality of facial recognition.

Fair, but it did distinguish that they were white. I remember seeing a post on Reddit ages ago implying that at least one of the boys was of colour, and that they could be more heavily targeted because of this. Not that they don't deserve to be heavily targeted, in fairness...

STB. · 20-06-2019 11:58PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Ana had no peer friend which sounds awful. As for bullying the school was in a posh suburb that they thought there was no need for a bullying policy. What we see from the surrounding circumstances Ana was in crisis before it was identified as a problem. Boy A & Boy B were in her class, both saw her as being vulnerable and played on it. It really astonishes me in 2019 that kids could be so mean, though we had overcome all this of old.

Is this actually true ? I thought new procedures requires all schools to formally adopt and implement an anti-bullying policy ? Came in about 5 years ago ?

Funnily enough I read claims (albeit from a very low reg account) that there were bullying issues at this school. It was sometime earlier.

IontachSpraoi wrote: »

Fair, but it did distinguish that they were white. I remember seeing a post on Reddit ages ago implying that at least one of the boys was of colour, and that they could be more heavily targeted because of this. Not that they don't deserve to be heavily targeted, in fairness...

I don't think race or colour comes into it. And Reddit, well don't believe everything you read there. No matter what colour they were, the shock value was achieved by the adult vs child size, and the subject matter of the proceedings.

mrjoneill · 20-06-2019 11:58PM

Force Carrier wrote: »

That doesn't mean he was normal to begin with. And porn changed him into a psychopath.

If he was a psychopath to begin with, predisposed to violence and sexual violence to begin with, then he would seek out such porn if available to him. Just like he would seek out victims to attack and abuse when the time was right. Non availability of porn wouldn't mean he would not rape or kill people.

Some people are born with an incapacity to feel empathy and a propensity to harm others.

The definition of sociopath and Psychopath don't need external sources to trigger their desires as they have no empathy. But at such a young age with the sex attack being part of it one cant but deduce it had a internet porn angle to it. And Boy B did not see anything wrong with it either as he did not express any revulsion and kept quiet. If he had not the access to porn his sexual predilections u propose were so innate to him wold not have being fulfilled as he would be totally ignorant of them at such a young age. He was prob just a yr into puberty. U assume so much is so innate without a flicker of proof to the facts. We do know from the facts that many sexual criminals have been triggered by events of their early teenage yrs.

Force Carrier · 21-06-2019 12:01AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

The definition of sociopath and Psychopath don't need external sources to trigger their desires as they have no empathy. But at such a young age with the sex attack being part of it one cant but deduce it had a internet porn angle to it. And Boy B did not see anything wrong with it either as he did not express any revulsion and kept quiet.

You have no idea what the source of their pathology is.
You're not medically qualified and you've never met them much less treated them.
Therefore you're assertion that porn caused their behavior is like all your other musings on this case complete horse sh1t and without basis in fact.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 12:02AM

tuxy wrote: »

At one stage they were black, then polish, then the son of a guard and many other things.

They were our own home grown and the sons of middle class families. That what makes it so in-explainable. Both had not come to the notice of authorities previously.

IontachSpraoi · 21-06-2019 12:03AM

I'd disagree that the school is in a posh suburb, it's a fairly normal area. Big mixture of well-off and working class families. Lots of kids. I can't begin to imagine how awful it must have been for Ana being surrounded by cliques the whole time. Being excluded as an adult is horrible, let alone as a young teen.

Suckit · 21-06-2019 12:05AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

They were our own home grown and the sons of middle class families. That what makes it so in-explainable. Both had not come to the notice of authorities previously.

They were only 13.
But I thought Boy B had come to their attention, that's how they got his name from the Pulse system?

BloodBath · 21-06-2019 12:06AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

The definition of sociopath and Psychopath don't need external sources to trigger their desires as they have no empathy. But at such a young age with the sex attack being part of it one cant but deduce it had a internet porn angle to it. And Boy B did not see anything wrong with it either as he did not express any revulsion and kept quiet.

You should remember what the hormones of a 13-14 year old boy is like if you are man. It's pretty bloody insane.

Now put those hormones into a psychopath. Porn is not needed for their sick mind and sexual fantasies to mix.

Sure it can contribute but it is not the cause.

Gadgetman496 · 21-06-2019 12:07AM

IontachSpraoi wrote: »

I'd disagree that the school is in a posh suburb, it's a fairly normal area. Big mixture of well-off and working class families. Lots of kids. I can't begin to imagine how awful it must have been for Ana being surrounded by cliques the whole time. Being excluded as an adult is horrible, let alone as a young teen.

I wonder what if any percentage of the flowers and Teddy's left at the scene were from students at her school?

Mellor · 21-06-2019 12:09AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

But at such a young age with the sex attack being part of it one cant but deduce it had a internet porn angle to it.

You can't deduce that. You just made it up.
Sex crimes and Psychopaths have existing long before internet porn.

You logic is akin to saying I know a gay man who watches gay porn, so one can deduce that the gay porn played a role in turning him gay.

mrjoneill wrote: »

They were our own home grown and the sons of middle class families. That what makes it so in-explainable. Both had not come to the notice of authorities previously.

It would be more explainable if they weren't home-grown. wtf????

tuxy · 21-06-2019 12:10AM

Suckit wrote: »

They were only 13.
But I thought Boy B had come to their attention, that's how they got his name from the Pulse system?

No the Guards used the pulse system to find out where he lived as they just had a surname at that stage.

There is no info at all as to which member of the household was on pulse or why they were on it. There are many totally innocent reasons why someones details may be in the pulse system.

brendanwalsh · 21-06-2019 12:11AM

I pray for bad things to happen to boy a and boy b.

I think chemical castration would be appropriate

IontachSpraoi · 21-06-2019 12:11AM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

I wonder what if any percentage of the flowers and Teddy's left at the scene were from students at her school?

My sentiments exactly. Perhaps a few from older years who wouldn't have known her as an outsider, but by the sounds of it no-one from her year in school gave a damn. I hope this tragedy is a huge wake up call for those kids - and her teachers.

Thinking about it now, did her year even attend her funeral? It was her dancing school that formed a guard of honour for her.

STB. · 21-06-2019 12:12AM

Force Carrier wrote: »

You have no idea what the source of their pathology is..

I know this is not directed at me, but access to such content at this age in this new digital age does need to be tackled. Sexual assault (aas well as murder) was an element of this case.

In the case of one of the two children whose two phones was recovered had a staggering amount of porn on it, and not soft porn either.

That anyone at such an age can easily access this sort of material on a hand held device does need to be tackled. Its something we have been behind the curve on.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 12:16AM

Force Carrier wrote: »

You have no idea what the source of their pathology is.
You're not medically qualified and you've never met them much less treated them.
Therefore you're assertion that porn caused their behavior is like all your other musings on this case complete horse sh1t and without basis in fact.

And ur the expert and ur passing comments on me as if u had some superior knowledge and u have a superior opinion. Perhaps its ur eating the horse manure. We know that Boy A had a large collection of porn, we know he committed a sex attack on his victim and he was only 13. Where would he get the knowledge at such a young age to engage in sex acts if he had not seen them on the internet. We do know he was also searching for other abnormal sex acts on the internet such as child and animal porn. Without the internet his sexual fantasies may not have arisen so young if not at all.

tuxy · 21-06-2019 12:18AM

STB. wrote: »

I know this is not directed at me, but access to such content at this age in this new digital age does need to be tackled. Sexual assault (aas well as murder) was an element of this case.

In the case of one of the two children whose two phones was recovered had a staggering amount of porn on it, and not soft porn either.

That anyone at such an age can easily access this sort of material on a hand held device does need to be tackled. Its something we have been behind the curve on.

It was believed there was a sexual element to the Jamie Bulger case and that predates the internet being available in homes and on phones.
Movies had to take the blame that time, no other way of explaining it right?
What has been done to prevent minors from viewing violent moves? Couldn't we use the exact same thing with the internet now?

Force Carrier · 21-06-2019 12:20AM

STB. wrote: »

I know this is not directed at me, but access to such content at this age in this new digital age does need to be tackled.

I don't disagree with you if you advocate restriction on access to porn with young people. There is research to show that it can be harmful. But that has nothing to do with these two twisted psychopaths.
That people think they were regular joe soaps and watched a porn video and changed into someone who could inflict 170 wounds on a young girl and kill her. These are sick people and were before they looked up any porn or sought out any victim to harm or kill. Psychopaths make up 1% of the population.
Banning porn may have many beneficial consequences but it won't change that. And it won't change that there has always been bad people and evil killers in our midst. In very small number thank God but they are there.

Gadgetman496 · 21-06-2019 12:24AM

STB. wrote: »

I know this is not directed at me, but access to such content at this age in this new digital age does need to be tackled. Sexual assault (aas well as murder) was an element of this case.

In the case of one of the two children whose two phones was recovered had a staggering amount of porn on it, and not soft porn either.

That anyone at such an age can easily access this sort of material on a hand held device does need to be tackled. Its something we have been behind the curve on.

There has been many accounts referring to the fact Boy 'A' did not like Ana, it is possible that he did in fact like her very much from a sexual point of view but couldn't handle her unwillingness to engage with him sexually & what he saw as her rejection of him fulled his rage to the point where he decided he was getting what he wanted and then killed her.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 12:37AM

Force Carrier wrote: »

It was A who had the bag containing the mask and shin guards etc and most likely him that used them.

You really are clueless on every aspect of this case.

I should have stated Boy A that had the gear but the point is if u were open to other opinions and not so full of ur own self opinions which r all horse manure u would see he was acting out a character which is so often in these cases where masks are used

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 12:39AM

iguana wrote: »

Does the law preventing the identification of the boys apply to their own families? What if at some point a parent or sibling of one of the boys wants to come forward and tell their story publicly? Are they gagged from sharing details about their own life in order to continue protecting a pair of murderers?

Yes families of the pair are bound like the public from preventing the identification of the pair. The protection is of the pair.

STB. · 21-06-2019 12:45AM

tuxy wrote: »

No the Guards used the pulse system to find out where he lived as they just had a surname at that stage.

There is no info at all as to which member of the household was on pulse or why they were on it. There are many totally innocent reasons why someones details may be in the pulse system.

PULSE does not solely capture information on offenders, but is also used to store information on Garda interactions with individuals, whether adults or children, such as victims of crime, persons injured in road traffic accidents and child welfare incidents.

Shatter answered this a few years back, when a journalist got whiff of traveller children or adults being assigned separate criminal intelligence PULSE numbers when going in to get passport photos and forms for kids signed at a Garda station.

whodafunk · 21-06-2019 12:54AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Yes families of the pair are bound like the public from preventing the identification of the pair. The protection is of the pair.

I feel so so sorry for that poor girls family and the evidence in what they have had to endure. I'm sorry but what "normal" 13 year old knows about satan and the dark web. I'm over 40 and only learned about the dark web in the last 2 years (through educational reasons). Again I'm sorry but what role if/any are the parents playing in these kids lives?
I have always said these 2 scum will be roaming our streets in the next few years whilst Patrick Quirke will most likely spend the rest of his living life in jail for something I would consider similar- murder charge - adult vs juvenile.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 01:04AM

Fall_Guy wrote: »

That's such black and white thinking on what is such a complex subject. In the case of these young boys there are a lot of unknowns, but let's take the worst case scenario and assume both are "evil /psychopaths / whatever term you choose" and for some unexplained neurological reason or some supernatural reason (depending on your beliefs) are incapable of remorse or rehabilitation....why would you be against the death penalty? If their inability to function safely in society is not in their control, if they are "psychopaths" they can't just choose to be good, upstanding citizens, it is out of their control. Why do you feel they should continue to be punished for as long as they live? In a case like this would the death penalty not be the more compassionate action to take, something more akin to the likes of euthanasia?

On the flip side, if someone in a moment of temporary madness commits a terrible crime of passion that they are immediately remorseful for and they truly would not be likely to re-offend or be a danger to society again, why should they be kept in prison until the day they die?

In this case I don't know if these boys were psychopaths. I know they had very troubling interests, I know they were exposed to a great deal of very troubling content through their own searches online. I know that these really dark tendencies don't seem to have been flagged by any adults in their lives, be it teachers or parents. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say this was an avoidable tragedy, but I can't help but feel that less Internet access and more engagement on the part of the boys parents or teachers could have had SOME difference in the path that those boys ended up walking. As it is, it's a horrific tragedy, and a part of me really does feel that those two boys would be better off dead at this point, not to feed the thirst for justice porn that is rampant (understandably) at the moment but more for their own sake. What sort of existence can they have going forward in their lives from here on out?

Do u not read what u write, here u blame the internet "but I can't help but feel that less Internet access and more engagement on the part of the boys parents or teachers could have had SOME difference in the path that those boys ended up walking." and u go on in later posts to blame it all on innate characteristics and the internet having no blame despite the young age of the offenders. U cant be right on both posts as they conflict or do u like to write horse manure stuff.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 01:09AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Indeed you do have to prove it and so it was, but you cannot say that he hung himself in his Garda interviews and otherwise there would have been no proof. In that event, the case would have been structured differently by the DPP and Prosecution Counsel. These guys could have made significant headway with his identification by witnesses and CCTV.

He is far from the sole architect of his own downfall.

Absolutely correct, that poster gets carried away on his own opinions which don't amount to much upon examinations. I have been trying to point out to him on several post that the CCTV & other witness statements showed Boy B to be consummate liar and the interviews confirmed that rather than provide self incriminating evidence.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 01:19AM

Stheno wrote: »

His family apparently they didn't feel the need to move until now

They were only found guilty now

prinzeugen · 21-06-2019 01:20AM

I think they should be named and not given new identification when released.

There are many cases from the UK where "child" killers have gone on to re-offend often for other serious crimes in adulthood.

I am interested to know how parents of kids that are 13-14 just now would react, when in 10 years time, they get engaged to "Bob" and it turns out he is boy A or boy B?

Would you let them get married??

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 01:34AM

Force Carrier wrote: »

Mens Rea was necessary.
Without his admissions his knowledge he was involved in a murder could not be estalbished.
No "significant headway" could be made from cctv and witnesses because they merely showed him bringing a girl part way to a date.

Total BS, the Mens Rea can be inferred by the actions of the parities involved. Boy B was bringing Ana to a disused house 3km away where Boy A was waiting in combat gear to kill her. Boy B made no admission of guilt in his video statement but confirmed he was a consummate liar & kept it up till Gardai pointed out the facts he was telling lies. He then tried a new set of lies till that was again pointed out from external sources it was lies. The prosecution did not get any admission from any of the 2 boys and did not rely on any of their statements as the facts spoke for themselves. Why do u write such BS when its so obvious the case. The Gardai did make all their progress on the case of Boy B on CCTV and witness evidence while both parties lied. Boy A was convicted on the forensics alone and it was obvious he and Boy B were acting in concert from the CCTV evidence.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 01:48AM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Mrjoneill, you keep going on about a "common plan". That the prosecution built their case on CCTV and witness statements. And this evidence somehow convinced the jury that the boys designed a plan to murder Ana.
How? You're putting the horse before the cart.

I'll ask you specifically....How does boy b calling for ana, been seen by her father, been seen on CCTV, been seen walking towards the house with her prove he knew she was going to be murdered?

The jury believed it that's all that's needed and the prosecution put forward that case. Boy B video evidence is all about his capacity to lie. There is no admission about any wrongdoing by him in them. His testimony against Boy A should not have been part of the evidence burden against him.

Mehapoy · 21-06-2019 01:53AM

Bambi wrote: »

Two psychos looking for a victim chose the most vulnerable, good looking girl that they knew. Lesson learned, unless you're like Ruth Coppinger and want to drag some poxy agenda into everything regardless.

I'm surprised 'toxic masculinity' and 'rape culture' hasn't been brought into it as the usual suspects use this family's tragedy to further their own agendas

Mehapoy · 21-06-2019 01:56AM

Force Carrier wrote: »

I don't disagree with you if you advocate restriction on access to porn with young people. There is research to show that it can be harmful. But that has nothing to do with these two twisted psychopaths.
That people think they were regular joe soaps and watched a porn video and changed into someone who could inflict 170 wounds on a young girl and kill her. These are sick people and were before they looked up any porn or sought out any victim to harm or kill. Psychopaths make up 1% of the population.
Banning porn may have many beneficial consequences but it won't change that. And it won't change that there has always been bad people and evil killers in our midst. In very small number thank God but they are there.

Its the video nasties hysteria for the digital age, not that I'd agree with the free access to porn that everybody has these days, but equally how about parents learn to say no and refuse to get their little darlings smartphones and ipads before they are 15 or 16

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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