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Off licence closing times - should they be restricted from selling past 10pm?

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    #122
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,711 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    their definition of binge drinking means that anybody who has 3 pints of beer is binge drinking. its a stupid definition.

    Before I left Ireland (and since) I'd hear publicans on the radio complaining about the Continentals, four of them nursing one pint between them all evening, and I thought they had a point. Even though we're not a "pubby" family, I was born and reared in the tradition of everyone buying a round throughout the evening, and whether in a put or at a wedding or at a big family meal at home, there'd be dozens of empties on the table.

    It was an almighty shock to "go native" in France, be with a dozen adults and watch them not quite finish two bottles of wine over the course of three hours. Then to go back modern-day Ireland and see this new culture of "pre-drinks" ... WTF? :eek:

    I'm not anti-alcohol: I'm currently building a new cellar for my wine and I regularly serve behind the bar at festivals, sometimes till 4am; but the attitude towards drink in Ireland - including that of several family members - is something that I want nothing more to do with. It has nothing to do with off-licences being open or closed on a Sunday morning.


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    #123
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    meeeeh wrote: »
    If you make a special trip to special place then I suspect it doesn't include groceries. Anyway that's immaterial.

    Just to clarify I was using the pub mesure for spirits which is slightly above 0.3 in Ireland (0.325 I think). I think old style shot glasses used to be that size.

    It does include groceries. The same centre has a supermarket, a good fruit and veg shop and a good off licence. I do all of my shopping on a Saturday morning, as early as I can, because the place I go is a big shopping centre and gets very busy as the day goes on. Its not Dundrum but think along those lines - a place that has a lot of shops in it. Which is why I definitely would not just *pop* in if I was passing - what an ordeal, to battle the parking, pay for the parking, battle the crowds etc. Hence I use the opportunity to buy the booze when i am doing the rest of the shopping. Im not sure what part of this totally normal way of grocery shopping is difficult for you?

    No idea on measures. Only on units.


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    #124
    GooglePlus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus


    Any shop I know that sells alcohol closes at 10 or earlier anyway.


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    #125
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    19.7 shots in a bottle.
    700/ 35.5ml.

    Meeeh.
    Very few people here are a claiming that Ireland doesn't have a very questionable relationship with alcohol.
    Many here do not believe that restrictive availability and high taxation are the answers to this problem. You do seem to believe that they have a major part to play.

    But wtf are you labelling anyone who doesn't agree with you as cheap booze guzzling alcoholics?

    You seem to believe that there is only one desirable relationship with alcohol and that is one exactly like your own. If restrictions don't effect you, they shouldn't effect anybody!

    You come across as insular, arrogant, preachy and unreasonable.


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    #126
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    the beer revolu wrote: »
    19.7 shots in a bottle.
    700/ 35.5ml.

    Meeeh.
    Very few people here are a claiming that Ireland doesn't have a very questionable relationship with alcohol.
    Many here do not believe that restrictive availability and high taxation are the answers to this problem. You do seem to believe that they have a major part to play.

    But wtf are you labelling anyone who doesn't agree with you as cheap booze guzzling alcoholics?

    You seem to believe that there is only one desirable relationship with alcohol and that is one exactly like your own. If restrictions don't effect you, they shouldn't effect anybody!

    You come across as insular, arrogant, preachy and unreasonable.
    I try. :D

    And no I don't think anyone who drinks like me has problems with alcohol, in fact many people told me here I have unhealthy attitude to alcohol. I'm happy with my drinking habits. What I don't like is binge/purge relationship that seems to be creeping in. People stick alcohol in porridge in December even though they don't really like it,drink at every occasion, do 12 pubs and so on and then do dry January. The same people who claim off licences should be open 24/7 also think children shouldn't be invited to weddings or shouldn't eat in certain restaurant because there is alcohol sold there. It seems people need to split their life into parts one when they gorge on alcohol and other when they moralize that a drop of alcohol shouldn't be present.

    I drink alcohol, I love wine, I think it enhances almost every good meal. But I'm not stuck by closing hours off licences have. I'm stuck for s pharmacy opening times, I remember not being able to fill the prescription till 2 pm on Sunday after family member spent the morning in hospital because no pharmacy was open. Yet I bet you no one ever complains about something like that yet not being able to buy alcohol at midnight in the shop is the end of the world.


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    #127
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,176 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I try. :D

    And no I don't think anyone who drinks like me has problems with alcohol, in fact many people told me here I have unhealthy attitude to alcohol. I'm happy with my drinking habits. What I don't like is binge/purge relationship that seems to be creeping in. People stick alcohol in porridge in December even though they don't really like it,drink at every occasion, do 12 pubs and so on and then do dry January. The same people who claim off licences should be open 24/7 also think children shouldn't be invited to weddings or shouldn't eat in certain restaurant because there is alcohol sold there. It seems people need to split their life into parts one when they gorge on alcohol and other when they moralize that a drop of alcohol shouldn't be present.

    I drink alcohol, I love wine, I think it enhances almost every good meal. But I'm not stuck by closing hours off licences have. I'm stuck for s pharmacy opening times, I remember not being able to fill the prescription till 2 pm on Sunday after family member spent the morning in hospital because no pharmacy was open. Yet I bet you no one ever complains about something like that yet not being able to buy alcohol at midnight in the shop is the end of the world.

    if the pharmacies were closed because they government said they could not open at certain times then we would be complaining about that as well.


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    #128
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    if the pharmacies were closed because they government said they could not open at certain times then we would be complaining about that as well.

    Yeah right. Plenty of public service and government offices are closed at set times and no one is complaining about that.


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    #129
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    meeeeh wrote: »
    People stick alcohol in porridge in December even though they don't really like it,drink at every occasion, do 12 pubs and so on and then do dry January. The same people who claim off licences should be open 24/7 also think children shouldn't be invited to weddings or shouldn't eat in certain restaurant because there is alcohol sold there. It seems people need to split their life into parts one when they gorge on alcohol and other when they moralize that a drop of alcohol shouldn't be present.

    I've never heard of someone putting alcohol in their porridge?

    The reason I don't particularly like children at weddings and restaurants is because a lot of the time they're noisy and running around.


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    #130
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Yeah right. Plenty of public service and government offices are closed at set times and no one is complaining about that.

    The whataboutery is strong in this one.


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    #131
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    I've never heard of someone putting alcohol in their porridge?

    The reason I don't particularly like children at weddings and restaurants is because a lot of the time they're noisy and running around.

    It's a Jamie Oliver recepie and quite nice. That statement was more tongue in cheap, what I was more referring to was sparkling wine and juice people like to mix on Christmas morning.

    I don't like people who are obnoxious and loud in restaurants yet I have to suffer them. Btw my kids behave themselves and I expect them to behave themselves when out.


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    #132
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    meeeeh wrote: »
    It's a Jamie Oliver recepie and quite nice. That statement was more tongue in cheap, what I was more referring to was sparkling wine and juice people like to mix on Christmas morning.

    I don't like people who are obnoxious and loud in restaurants yet I have to suffer them. Btw my kids behave themselves and I expect them to behave themselves when out.

    Neither do I but that's the chance you take when you eat out in public. You can't control who's going to be seating near you!

    Fair play to you for having well behaved children :)


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    #133
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    Fair play to you for having well behaved children :)

    Just to add something, I'm not trying to show off I just firmly believe that parents should be able to make sure their kids are well behaved in public. There are some exceptions (developmental issues, really young kids/babies) but majority of kids behave badly in public because their parents don't parent properly.


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    #134
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Just to add something, I'm not trying to show off I just firmly believe that parents should be able to make sure their kids are well behaved in public. There are some exceptions (developmental issues, really young kids/babies) but majority of kids behave badly in public because their parents don't parent properly.

    Agreed. Although I don't like seeing children glued to smartphones/tablets in restaurants as a way of parenting. I'd rather hear a bit of noise than see zombified children.


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    #135
    pure.conya
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Because they will get home sooner than if they had to work until 11 or midnight.

    but they'd get to start an hour or 2 later in the day of they worked to 11 or 12


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    #136
    pure.conya
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    True enough. Here in France, if you haven't bought your 5l box of wine by 11h45 on a Sunday morning, the shops will be closed and you'll have to go a village fête somewhere to get your booze. And they'll be selling it on the strength of a "licence" that they got by dropping a form off at the local town hall saying "we'll be selling alcohol from 10am till 2am on Saturday and Sunday next ; let us know if you object." And there'll be children there till 2am too.

    The longer I spend outside of Ireland, the more the Irish relationship with alcohol - on the side of both consumption and regulation - seems completely messed up, and no amount of tax or time-restriction is going to change the culture.

    in Brittany when the pub closes at 10.30pm you'll see people up and out of their seats at 10.30pm sharp leaving half or 3/4 full drinks behind and head straight home, real eye opener


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    #137
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    pure.conya wrote: »
    in Brittany when the pub closes at 10.30pm you'll see people up and out of their seats at 10.30pm sharp leaving half or 3/4 full drinks behind and head straight home, real eye opener

    Some of my friends and I used to help the floor staff at niteclubs at the end of the night to clear the tables of drinks.


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    #138
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    YFlyer wrote: »
    Some of my friends and I used to help the floor staff at niteclubs at the end of the night to clear the tables of drinks.

    I'd say ye were clearing the tables alright - drinking all the leftovers :D


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    #139
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I try. :D

    And no I don't think anyone who drinks like me has problems with alcohol, in fact many people told me here I have unhealthy attitude to alcohol. I'm happy with my drinking habits. What I don't like is binge/purge relationship that seems to be creeping in. People stick alcohol in porridge in December even though they don't really like it,drink at every occasion, do 12 pubs and so on and then do dry January. The same people who claim off licences should be open 24/7 also think children shouldn't be invited to weddings or shouldn't eat in certain restaurant because there is alcohol sold there. It seems people need to split their life into parts one when they gorge on alcohol and other when they moralize that a drop of alcohol shouldn't be present.

    I drink alcohol, I love wine, I think it enhances almost every good meal. But I'm not stuck by closing hours off licences have. I'm stuck for s pharmacy opening times, I remember not being able to fill the prescription till 2 pm on Sunday after family member spent the morning in hospital because no pharmacy was open. Yet I bet you no one ever complains about something like that yet not being able to buy alcohol at midnight in the shop is the end of the world.

    Im curious to know what the connection is that you see between the licensing hours for alcohol sales and a binge/purge relationship with alcohol?

    I dont think children should be at weddings because its not an appropriate place for them to be. A typical Irish wedding is a piss up that goes on until 4am. Not a child friendly event at all.

    I dont like children in restaurants because I prefer to eat in a nice quiet environment with adults.

    I actually think its important not to expose children to drunk behaviour and drunk adults. Thats a very important split to make. I was exposed to drunk behaviour growing up and it wasnt good. Ive no problem with children being exposed to alcohol, but not drunkness - you dont seem to be able to distinguish between the two.


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    #140
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I think that points to a very unhealthy attitude to alcohol. My kids see me drink small glass of wine with dinner (0,125l), they don't see me drunk. If you feel so guilty about your consumption of alcohol you have to hide it from kids, then you are not a responsible drinker.

    There is really unhealthy attitude to alcohol here. People are hiding their drinking from kids but when kids go to bed they have to have access to cheap alcohol almost on tap. Not in pub because it's too expensive and others would see their drinking habits but at home where they can hide their habit from their families and everyone else.

    But, but, but, isn't it monkey see, monkey do???........... isn't this why off sales will have to have a separate doors and be covered off so that young children don't see a bottle of West Coast Cooler and become raging alcoholics under the new legislation the govt are trying to force through with MUP???


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    #141
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    reg114 wrote: »
    Yes it was purely to with placating the powerful vintners lobby and had zero to do with public health. That being said, if I need to go to a bank I do it during opening hours which involves planning ahead, why cant people who want to buy alcohol for consumption after 10 pm, plan ahead and buy it when the off licenses are open .. they are open for 10 hours a day.

    Coz you don't just get the goo on ya to go to the bank, like you do for a drink.


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    #142
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    So kids shouldn't be allowed to family events or decent restaurants so people can drink freely. Yeah that's healthy attitude towards alcohol.


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    #143
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    meeeeh wrote: »
    So kids shouldn't be allowed to family events or decent restaurants so people can drink freely. Yeah that's healthy attitude towards alcohol.

    No - you never mentioned family events, you mentioned weddings. You were quite specific. As was I in my response where I pointed out that a piss up that goes on until 4am is not a child friendly environment IMO.

    If I had kids, I wouldnt bring them to a family event where there would be any drunken behaviour. And if I was at a family event where children were present, I wouldnt drink.

    Are you actually trying to argue that not exposing children to drunkeness = an unhealthy attitude to alcohol?


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    #144
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Weltsmertz wrote: »
    After reading through four pages I will be the only one to say it.
    Reducing the hours of availability for the purchase of alcohol is an effective way of reducing consumption for problem drinkers
    It works.
    Alcohol can be purchased in advance and stored. However many heavy drinkers are unable to do so. They buy it and drink it. There is then the temptation and the need to buy more later in the evening. If it only available until 10pm they have to buy it before then. Or go to a pub alone which they may not want to do if they are already drunk. Either way it puts a barrier in the way of a problem drinker.
    Not insurmountable obstacles but enough to lead to reduced alcohol drinking for those that should be drinking less
    All those arguing against it here do not understand the psychology and motivations of heavy drinkers struggling with their addiction.
    So. An effective and sensible law that reduces consumption of alcohol by heavy drinkers.
    any alcoholic keeps an emergency supply, and an emergency emergency supply. Sure if you want to put "obstacles" in the way, make is so that you can only buy booze on even-numbered days, or that you have to buy it with 20 cent coins


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    #145
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    And there, in two phrases, is the worst of the Irish attitude to alcohol: lumping all the "problem drinkers" in with the off-their-heads buy-it-and-drink-it out-of-control addicts. All the problem drinkers I know are perfectly capable of keeping a good stock of alcohol in store, at home in full view of the rest of the family. The "problem" is that what's considered normal in Ireland is way out of line with other countries, not unlike obesity in the States versus other countries.

    But Irish consumption isn't even all that odd. There are 20 countries that drink more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita


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    #146
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    goose2005 wrote: »
    But Irish consumption isn't even all that odd. There are 20 countries that drink more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

    Including France which is being used as an example as a prime example of sensible drinking in this thread :pac:


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    #147
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,711 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    ....... wrote: »
    I dont think children should be at weddings because its not an appropriate place for them to be. A typical Irish wedding is a piss up that goes on until 4am. Not a child friendly event at all.

    Maybe if there were more children at weddings, the adults would cop on to themselves? But probably not ... :(

    But I love the idea that adult-only restaurants are quiet! Anytime I've had disruption during a meal, it's been adults causing the noise. Give me a place a the children's table any time - much more civilised company. :D


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    #148
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,711 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    goose2005 wrote: »
    But Irish consumption isn't even all that odd. There are 20 countries that drink more.
    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    Including France which is being used as an example as a prime example of sensible drinking in this thread :pac:

    The litres-a-head figures might be the same, but most of the time, the Irish cram all that into one weekend ... or one evening.

    I would also argue that any kind of data collection on this topic is going to be seriously skewed. There are (literally) hundreds of warehouses in France that sell wine exclusively to the Irish and English. Is that being counted as "recorded consumption" for the French? Similarly, when you've got gangs of students and hen/stag parties going to places like Spain, is that all being counted as Spanish consumption?


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    #149
    decky1
    Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭decky1


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Not only does the computer say no, the poor chap could have been sacked if he could have processed the transaction

    this was about 4/5 years ago and he did say '12 o cluck' because that's all he said about 10 times.:D


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    #150
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Should be 24hr in this day and age and let grown adults make their choices.


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    #151
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,051 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    The litres-a-head figures might be the same, but most of the time, the Irish cram all that into one weekend ... or one evening.
    I would also argue that any kind of data collection on this topic is going to be seriously skewed. There are (literally) hundreds of warehouses in France that sell wine exclusively to the Irish and English. Is that being counted as "recorded consumption" for the French? Similarly, when you've got gangs of students and hen/stag parties going to places like Spain, is that all being counted as Spanish consumption?

    Yes. Just as pints drunk at Guinness storehouse... our number one tourist attraction - count here. The figures have an inherent unreliability.
    And home grown wine isnt going to count in French sales... big thing over there.

    I dont think overall consumption gives full picture of who is drinking what except is it trending up or down.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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