Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

ohnonotgmail · 19-06-2019 11:38AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

No, because the charges that the state tried them under charges that didn't carry the death sentence!! The (British) state that withheld the evidence of their innocence was the same (British) state that filed the charges against them. They knew they couldn't face execution. It's hardly rocket science is it???

you think the state would have acted differently if the death penalty was possible? you really are incredibly naive.

nehemiah · 19-06-2019 11:39AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

No, because the charges that the state tried them under charges that didn't carry the death sentence!! The (British) state that withheld the evidence of their innocence was the same (British) state that filed the charges against them. They knew they couldn't face execution. It's hardly rocket science is it???

So if there had been the death penalty the state would not have withheld the evidence?

Interesting theory

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 11:41AM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

If you didn't have the appeals do you know In the last 10 years how many innocent people would have executed ? I don't know how many got off on appeal.

They reckon 4% of death row inmates are innocent that's means one in 25 that are killed are innocent,

In the states from 2008 - 2018 374 people where executed ,
That is 15 innocent people who where executed not to mention the ones who got off because of appeal

Radford Serial Killer Database
Since 1950 (date of last kill)
2,883 serial killers in the United States
Of those 2,883
478 killed again while on parole for murder (16.6%)
138 killed again while in prison (4.8%)
23 killed while escaped from prison for murder (0.8%)
11 killed while on NGRI release for murder (0.4%)
650 (22.5%) killed again after an initial conviction for murder

Many of the above committed *multiple* murders so the number of people who died is greater again.

Ulysses Gaze · 19-06-2019 11:43AM

Schools in Ireland need to start hammering down on bullies. Else it will become more like the US where schools start turning a blind eye to it and ignoring it.

Start expelling Bullies and not soft-soaping the issue or being intimidated by arsehole parents like Boy B's father coming into schools roaring abuse at them.

Small Wonder · 19-06-2019 11:44AM

Lackadaisical wrote: »

All this talk of the death penalty is reactionary nonsense. We abolished it completely by firstly not using it for many years, then by legislation and ultimately by referendum and constitutional amendment. It's also a criteria of membership of the EU and Council of Europe.

We don't have the death penalty because we're are better than that.

It's both risky in terms of potentially executing someone after a miscarriage of justice and that can't be undone. It debases and demeans society. We have to be better than killing people.

For all the angry talk that goes on in discussion forums, it would be carried out in the name of the people. So we the people would be killing people - in my view is you do that you lose your moral high ground. Also someone has to actually do it. In the early years of the state when we still actively sued capital punishment there was no hangman as nobody would do the job.

Justice has to be delivered calmly and dispassionately. It's not about reactionary vengeance no matter how angry and sickened we might be by a crime it's not about exacting medieval revenge.

We quite often hear of death-row prisoners that have been exonerated after many years behind bars. You'd have to wonder how many innocent people get executed each year around the world. Can you just imagine getting strapped in for a lethal injection knowing you're innocent? The risk of an injustice happening far outweighs the 'benefit' that society might take from the execution.

rossie1977 · 19-06-2019 11:44AM

Louisiana which has the death penalty in 2017 had four times the homicide rate of New Jersey or Washington state which don't have the death penalty. So death penalty isn't really a deterrent.

It's also not a left and right issue. China and North Korea still have death penalty, in fact China executes more people annually than anywhere else on Earth followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan.

I am of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any reasonable doubt the person is guilty of murder then the death penalty would be an appropriate punishment. That however would require crime to be on video or for person to be caught in act or at scene of crime with incriminating evidence.

Will finish by saying if you are a practicing Christian you really shouldn't be in favour of death penalty given 'Thou shalt not kill' is probably most important commandment.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 19-06-2019 11:46AM

RiCriostoir wrote: »

And to hear Mr. Gagebys last question to Ana's mother was to ask her to confirm that she had told the Gardai she found a condom under her daughters pillow, the week before her disappearance is absolutely disgraceful and he should be brought up on this. That even the slightest bit of interest or curious about sex and their sexuality can people some partial blame to the victim...

A lot of Boy A's defences closing statement seemed to hinge on the implication that his DNA got on her through consensual contact and then things got out of hand and he accidentally killed her.

Despicable, but barely eyebrow raising for anyone who's been present for or followed a rape trial. I assume there wasn't a hint of lace or anything on her underwear or that would have been brought up too...

Suckit · 19-06-2019 11:46AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Schools in Ireland need to start hammering down on bullies. Else it will become more like the US where schools start turning a blind eye to it and ignoring it.

Start expelling Bullies and not soft-soaping the issue or being intimidated by arsehole parents like Boy B's father coming into schools roaring abuse at them.

I think we as a society have a larger role to play also.

trihead · 19-06-2019 11:46AM

Saw this online from one of the papers - might be useful if people wanted to donate and where not aware of it. The focus I feel should be on Ana and her memory not on these 2 boys (though I understand how its huge news at the moment)

It should be noted that - in the midst of their grief last year - Mr and Mrs Kriegel asked mourners that donations be made to the Russian Irish Adoption Group (RIAG).

Through those donations, the RIAG was able to set up a website, so members and others have a resource and a network available.

The RIAG has also set up a network for Russian Irish teenagers. It’s called ANA (Ana’s Network of Adolescents) and it seems like a fitting tribute to the teen, who was described during her memorial service as being “caring, kind, strong-willed” and “sometimes cheeky”.

fryup · 19-06-2019 11:47AM

Woke Hogan wrote: »

The people frothing at the mouth and rubbing their legs at the idea of executing or torturing these two boys need to realise that they're part of the problem regarding violence in society.

Feisar wrote: »

The hugs and kisses brigade need to realize that they're part of the problem regarding violence in society.

so what do you do??

we need to take a step back from this and look at it rationally, studies have shown that a person's brain doesn't fully develop until the age of 25...so should an undeveloped child at the age of 13 be executed? or sentenced to life??

his life is ruined anyway by the stigma of this ...i think if they haven't shown true remorse & rehabilitation by the age of 21 then they should remain in detention

ohnonotgmail · 19-06-2019 11:47AM

rossie1977 wrote: »

Louisiana which has the death penalty in 2017 had four times the homicide rate of New Jersey or Washington state which don't have the death penalty. So death penalty isn't really a deterrent.

It's also not a left and right issue. China and North Korea still have death penalty, in fact China executes more people annually than anywhere else on Earth followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan.

I am of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any reasonable doubt the person is guilty of murder then the death penalty would be an appropriate punishment. That however would require crime to be on video or for person to be caught in act or at scene of crime with incriminating evidence.

Will finish by saying if you are a practicing Christian you really shouldn't be in favour of death penalty given 'Thou shalt not kill' is probably most important commandment.

The correct translation for the commandment is Thou Shalt not murder so i think we can give the christians a pass on that.

Edgware · 19-06-2019 11:47AM

nehemiah wrote: »

State withholding evidence is not the only way a miscarriage of justice can take place.

Even now there is some legitimate doubt about the level of involvement of Boy B. We can all have a 'gut feeling' that he was involved more than he says he was and it's clear that he lied in his interviews but there's little more than that to go on.

Except that he stood boy while Ana was murdered. The jury had no doubt and thats all that matters.

Feisar · 19-06-2019 11:47AM

Gerianam wrote: »

Parents need to be parents. Our fourteen year old son, has access to his phone for one hour after dinner, he does not ask for any more because he knows it will not happen. Yesterday, he mowed his granny's front lawn and back garden, she gave him 10 euro. He bought sweets for himself and his little sister. I cannot underdstand how kids are allowed to have access depravity on line. The world is gone crazy.

All points agreed, however he got a tender for mowing the lawn, leads me to believe it’s within the realms of possibility that he could have €150 to €200 euro to his name? All he needs to do is buy a second hand or refurbished laptop and a world of depravity is at his fingertips. Not saying anything about your son specifically, just an example. Do you monitor all internet traffic in the house?

Dots1982 · 19-06-2019 11:49AM

Surely the Red FM guy has to be prosecuted or it’s open season on naming anyone in the future whose identity is made a secret by court order?

yourdeadwright · 19-06-2019 11:49AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Radford Serial Killer Database
Since 1950 (date of last kill)
2,883 serial killers in the United States
Of those 2,883478 killed again while on parole for murder (16.6%)
138 killed again while in prison (4.8%)
23 killed while escaped from prison for murder (0.8%)
11 killed while on NGRI release for murder (0.4%)
650 (22.5%) killed again after an initial conviction for murder

Many of the above committed *multiple* murders so the number of people who died is greater again.

So are you saying its ok for the state to kill 15 innocent people ?
I don't get where your going with this ?

19-06-2019 11:50AM

Grayson wrote: »

We would be hanging innocent people at some point. As someone said already the birmingham 6 and guildford 4 would have been killed.

theguzman wrote: »

The tiny amount of innocents who would die is a small price to pay

Do you realise how utterly psychotic that sounds? You'd be happy if your brother or sister or your kid, actually, was hung and they were innocent? Small price to pay after all...

Ursus Horribilis · 19-06-2019 11:51AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

They are being named on twitter and pictures shared and you can't blame people for doing so.

They are two psychopaths and public safety is needed.

And that is why I sometimes hate Twitter and WhatsApp and social media. The baying mob is now judge, jury and executioner. None of us knows if they're distributing the correct information or if they have just dragged innocent people into this. It's not the first time this has happened. Anyone who forwards these pictures is an irresponsible eejit

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 11:52AM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So are you saying its ok for the state to kill 15 innocent people ?
I don't get where your going with this ?

If the alternative is to allow 450+ innocent people to die, then I'm at least open to the discussion.

Note that I'm talking about multiple/serial killers here.

jam_mac_jam · 19-06-2019 11:53AM

Feisar wrote: »

All points agreed, however he got a tender for mowing the lawn, leads me to believe it’s within the realms of possibility that he could have €150 to €200 euro to his name? All he needs to do is buy a second hand or refurbished laptop and a world of depravity is at his fingertips. Not saying anything about your son specifically, just an example. Do you monitor all internet traffic in the house?

Yes, yes you do. You don't let them use laptops in their room or give them phones at 13 or they use the phone in front of you.

There are a million ways to manage this, its not rocket science.

My son used the laptop in the main room until he was old enough, 16/17. He didn't have a smart phone.

My dad had net nanny on the computer when my sisters were younger and we were growing up and that was the 90's/ early 2000. So yes it is possible with a bit of effort.

volchitsa · 19-06-2019 11:53AM

Melanie Tangy Appendix wrote: »

A lot of Boy A's defences closing statement seemed to hinge on the implication that his DNA got on her through consensual contact and then things got out of hand and he accidentally killed her.

Despicable, but barely eyebrow raising for anyone who's been present for or followed a rape trial. I assume there wasn't a hint of lace or anything on her underwear or that would have been brought up too...

She seems to have been wearing a vest, poor little pet. (That's what the other male "contact" DNA was on, according to reports).

That she was wearing a vest at her age really struck me as her unusual innocence at 14.

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 11:53AM

Omackeral wrote: »

Do you realise how utterly psychotic that sounds? You'd be happy if your brother or sister or your kid, actually, was hung and they were innocent? Small price to pay after all...

Would you be any more/less happy if your brother or sister was murdered by a repeat offender? Small price to pay...

19-06-2019 11:53AM

theguzman wrote: »

The UK will bring back the death penalty with a hard brexit looming and free of Brussels law you can see hanging being restored there in the next ten years.

And you can get your jollies then can't you? Except for one thing

.....it's not gonna happen.

weldoninhio · 19-06-2019 11:54AM

super_furry wrote: »

Doesn't matter, they'd still be dead if you had your way and execution was an option.

The state chose the charges the defendants were facing #facepalm

blackwhite · 19-06-2019 11:55AM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

And that is why I sometimes hate Twitter and WhatsApp and social media. The baying mob is now judge, jury and executioner. None of us knows if they're distributing the correct information or if they have just dragged innocent people into this. It's not the first time this has happened. Anyone who forwards these pictures is an irresponsible eejit

We've already seen *on this thread* where another kid with the same name was being identified as the killer.

19-06-2019 11:56AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

We have different views of punishment of this type of crime. Mine a a lot more succinct.

1. Bullet.
2. Rope.

Yep, I know what ya mean!

InTheShadows · 19-06-2019 11:56AM

Gerianam wrote: »

Parents need to be parents. Our fourteen year old son, has access to his phone for one hour after dinner, he does not ask for any more because he knows it will not happen. Yesterday, he mowed his granny's front lawn and back garden, she gave him 10 euro. He bought sweets for himself and his little sister. I cannot underdstand how kids are allowed to have access depravity on line. The world is gone crazy.

Sound like an old f ucker here but when i was 14 you'd be lucky to grab a glimpse of a half naked playboy model now in 10 seconds flat you can watch a gang of 10 men do all kinds of sick stuff to a woman on a smartphone. A quick google will have you watching a person being beheaded quicker than it takes to make a cup of tea.

I've been banging this drum for years now but the effect this is now having on our children is going to be felt for years to come. The buck stops at the parents door without a doubt but unfortunately the actions you are taking with your child is the exception to the rule.

Small Wonder · 19-06-2019 11:56AM

Dots1982 wrote: »

Surely the Red FM guy has to be prosecuted or it’s open season on naming anyone in the future whose identity is made a secret by court order?

Sorry, must have missed this. Did a RED FM presenter/reporter actually name someone?

19-06-2019 11:57AM

GreeBo wrote: »

So locking an innocent person up for life is better than sentencing them to death?

Sentences can be appealed, overturned or reduced. Happens often. Not much good appealing if you're already dead.

weldoninhio · 19-06-2019 11:58AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you think the state would have acted differently if the death penalty was possible? you really are incredibly naive.

nehemiah wrote: »

So if there had been the death penalty the state would not have withheld the evidence?

Interesting theory

The death penalty was possible if the state had decided to charge the G4 and B6 with treason. The state chose not to, therefore ENSURING that the death penalty could not be imposed by the judge. It is the same state.

This is miles off topic so I won't be engaging anymore.

Captain Flaps · 19-06-2019 11:58AM

Just swinging by to say that some of the posts here make me sick and the hard lads calling for summary murder of the convicted should be bloody ashamed. You're disgusting.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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